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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #801

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    Sky,
    Yes, At least my patrol plans call for all 4 corners of the baffle to be cut off to leave about a 1" triangle at each corner.
    Doug

  2. #802
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    Sky,

    Good info and common sense I believe. I guess I could argue (but I won't) on the finger screen after having one blocked from trash I picked up from a gas fill up. I think some of the material may have been there prior to the fill up that blocked the supply line but the result was the same. Checking and cleaning the strainers is a PIA and gets fuel all over the place when you pull the line off...it's a mess!! I'll put the strainers into both supply fittings.

    Baffles have all 4 corners cut off and a cut-out in the center bottom of the baffle to allow good flow of air and fuel while still reducing slosh. 43-13 doesn't really cover that very well but I should have adequate flow around the baffles.

    Keep up the good thoughts!! Off to pick Huckleberries...pie and milkshake later!!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  3. #803
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    Sky,

    Good info and common sense I believe. I guess I could argue (but I won't) on the finger screen after having one blocked from trash I picked up from a gas fill up. I think some of the material may have been there prior to the fill up that blocked the supply line but the result was the same. Checking and cleaning the strainers is a PIA and gets fuel all over the place when you pull the line off...it's a mess!! I'll put the strainers into both supply fittings.

    Baffles have all 4 corners cut off and a cut-out in the center bottom of the baffle to allow good flow of air and fuel while still reducing slosh. 43-13 doesn't really cover that very well but I should have adequate flow around the baffles.

    Keep up the good thoughts!! Off to pick Huckleberries...pie and milkshake later!!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  4. #804
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    Plumbing question...tanks have front and rear supply points with elbows so that the lines can run to a T and down...is there a favored place to place the T?

    I'm thinking it really won't matter since there should always be flow from either the front or back ( or both) supply pick-ups to the T. I'm running the line down in the front window/door frame so I'm leaning toward a forward location that will allow a smooth bend to that location and I want to use a minimum number of fittings to get the supply lines to the fuel selector valve.

    ALso, is 3/8" alum tube the best or should I use plastic?

    Thoughts?

    Wrong,

    My tractor tire stems are brass with a rubber O ring so I'll look for others to use for vents that will fit Sky's flipper/bug blocker thing.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  5. #805

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    I always thought the front and rear lines went down the door post or whatever and the "T" was down low in the fuselage.

    Doug

  6. #806
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    Doug,

    I suppose there would be nothing wrong with that either, but why run 2 lines down then T since they can only flow as much as the valve will allow. I was thinking T at the tank and run one line to the valve for each wing tank....then to the sump at the lowest point in the system. I'll also have tank sumps and drains.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  7. #807

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    T up at the tank won't work. Draw a side view of the plane on paper, now add just a one tank and outlets, add carb and gascolator. Now add fuel lines and hold paper in level flight everything will work when T is at tank. turn paper nose up or down with only a 1/8 tank of fuel and fuel will leave tank but won't reach T if it is the middle of tank. Put T at front or back and it will correct for only nose up or down. I hope I said all this right Look at Cub Crafters system than delete crossover tube at top and no duel feed.
    DENNY

  8. #808
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    Denny,

    I was going to put the T below the tank but I see your point...nose high on landing with very low fuel...sputter sputter...quiet. Thanks for pointing that out...now I see why Doug said put the T at the bottom!

    I learn something everyday here...this site is great!!
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  9. #809

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    No problem I think everything I post is information that someone else has explained to me. I am just very lucky to have a bunch of guys up here that are willing to share what they have learned over the years. The both tank feed issue becomes an issue when fuel stops are far and few between. I have been on long flights with Citabrias which have only both fuel feed. Up here we can go over one or two ranges, Land on the beach, change wind 5 times and do some slow flight over the river. It gets hard to figure the fuel burn over a 4 hour time span. It is a lot easier to just burn one tank until you get a cough then you know you have 18 gal until the fun stops. I even have fuel flow calibrated down to .1 gal pre tank and still try to cough it just in case it is wrong. Lots of ways to skin the cat just something to ponder now that the T at the tank is out of your mind.
    DENNY

  10. #810
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    Sky,

    A quick shot at the end of one of the tanks showing strainers.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    and a shot showing how we weld in the baffles without rivets. Can't get one of the other tank when it's put together...flash kills the picture.
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    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  11. #811
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Not sure these photos clearly show what we're doing here but I decided to put a sump in the bottom corner of the tanks and put the drain in the bottom of the the sump...trying to give the water a place to go rather than sit in a corner waiting for fuel to flow toward the engine. During a leak test I noticed that about 3 oz of water laid in the tank corner that would not get to the drain without some shaking of the plane/wing so it look like the best route was to add a sump there. We also have a sump and drain at the lowest point in the system before it goes uphill to the carb but I'd like to get it out of the tank before it gets there.

    Welding is pretty lumpy but it holds water and it only will stick down about 3/4" below the wing.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Welding is pretty lumpy but it holds water and it only will stick down about 3/4" below the wing.
    Will that cause interference with the upper door? The quick drains are usually just shy of contact with the 'glass' when raised.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
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  13. #813
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    Doc,

    Thanks for thinking about that and bringing it to my attention.

    It's about an 1" behind the window frame and the way I made the window it's also below the drain and should clear OK.

    One thing I did notice is that the step I put on that I thought I could use to refuel will be a real reach...still good for cleaning the windshield but may not work for the fuel fill...especially out of a 5 gal can.

    WHat about installing a small pump and lines to fill the tanks when using a gas can...just like the big boys when they refuel? I have an electric pump and a 100 gal tank on a trailer for routine fill-ups but can see times where I might need to fill up with a can...maybe use a "Y" or "T" in the supply lines where I could just plug in a QD fitting and pump away into the tanks.

    Has anyone tried this?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #814
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    If you did it in a supply line you might try and find a valve. To were your not pushing fuel to the engine at the same time as the tank. Then be able to shut off the QD fitting it doesn't happen often but I have seen them fail. I'm not sure how much head pressure those little electric inline pumps can handle. You would be pushing it uphill and against the fuel in the tank. If you can get a pump to work that would make it a lot easier then a 5gal can over the wing.

  15. #815

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    I use a jiggle hose with my 5 gal cans. Just set the can on the wing and siphon the fuel into the tank. It works great and no more poring fuel over the wing and my arm. I made the hose long enough to steal fuel from my friends 185 when we are on long trips
    DENNY

  16. #816
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    Summit racing has some high volume fuel pumps. I have been using one for 24 years in this application, just as a fuel transfer pump. I have a aux./ferry tank I carry secured on the forward baggage platform (it takes the place of the rear seat for solo xc's). While in flight I: open a under my seat valve that connects the aux tank with the tee and the wing tanks, then a panel mounted switch with an idiot light telling me when it's on is activated. A few minutes later the reverse process is followed. NO check valve is used or needed between the tank and mains, so it's best to remember to close the valve, though the pump slows down any backfeed tendency it slowly does so. This can be a handy feature if I want to, for some reason, drain a little fuel out of the mains.

    The lines connecting the aux tank have quick disconnect fittings with built in stops, so no leakage. I can take the tank out in less then a minute, and use it along with my bush gasbags to get more mo gas when on a trip, I never, NEVER, burn av gas (Rotax) so this is a real important feature. At home, though I have a bulk tank and a pump, I find it easier to just fill the aux and pump it up, no standing up on the tire or a ladder, and worries about spillage on the wing. If I want absolute max capacity, I up pump until I get a slight dribble out my under the wing exit points for the air vents, a few drops is all, not like I'm wasting fuel! This is why I prefer, besides less drag, the vent system I use, I couldn't do it this way with a through the cap vent without it gushing out on the wing, skylight etc. Though rare for to me to fill that much, to the absolute brim, when I do I have a can on the hangar floor to catch the few drops before I stop pumping.

    No worries about pushing fuel into the engine, I mean that is what the carb floats are there for, right? The gas will take the easier route, up into the mains, with no additional pressure on the carb floats that I can see anyway. My pump is under the pass. seat. All this is practical of course will the fuel volumes involved operating a Rotax, probably less so with the thirstier powerplants.

    In my case, I'll fly along until the sight gauges in the wing tanks empty out (I have another 30 to 45 minutes of fuel sloshing around in the bottom after I can't see any) then I'll pump most of the gas out of the aux tank, often leaving a gallon or two), this will fill the mains back up to sight gauge level. Then I'll run them down again, making a note of the time so I can estimate when the mains will be truly empty, THEN I start turning around every few minutes until I see the fuel level dropping in the 3 gallon sight gauge equipped header tank. When I see it dropping down past the 1/2 gallon mark, I start thinking about where to land to get more fuel, (!!) while still of course having a 30 min reserve in the aux. tank. A slight exaggeration but the idea is I can "run out" several times before I REALLY run out, and I'll never be unsure when that will be, I can predict it to the minute. I carry 35 gallons and burn less then 4 GPH, but flight plan for 4.

    None of this may be applicable for your bird but this system has gotten me home many times, without making a fuel stop late in the flight, just because I knew exactly how much fuel I had left thanks to the sight gauge in that header tank.

  17. #817
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    The float should stop it. My only thought was the carb is set up for gravity feed. I don't know what it would do with pressure. It'll put pressure on both sides then go to the least resistance. It's just a thought I work on diesels not gas so I could be off I don't play with gas very much.

  18. #818
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    There would not be any increased pressure since the pressure would be controlled by the height of the fuel in the vented tank.
    N1PA

  19. #819
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    WOW!! Lots of info...thanks!

    I was thinking of a valve between the gascolator and the carb for the reason mentioned and using a male OMC QD fitting on a hose just inside a door in the belly. A self priming pump in the plane should be able to pull fuel from a tank/can sitting on the ground and send it to which ever tank I select with the fuel selector....less than 7' vertical. I use the tank on the trailer to fuel my boat some times and thought the easiest way to do this for my application was use boat fittings. Good point about a valve to prevent a QD from leaking or sticking open.

    Any other thoughts??
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  20. #820
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    I've seen one cub with an external 12V plug near the cargo door. He used a portable fuel pump to refuel from cans or drums as the situation demanded.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
    --- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner

  21. #821
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    Doc,

    That would work well especially on certified planes where it would be tough to get one approved for permanent installation.

    Here's something like I was thinking of using to fill mine:
    Holley#510-12-920

    Universal In-Line Fuel Pump80 gph @ 15 psi/67 gph @ 45 psi
    480 pph @ 15 psi/402 pph @ 45 psi
    5 amps @ 15 psi/8 amps @ 45 psi
    Supports TBI up to 800 HP

    It should move plenty of fuel and doesn't pull a lot of electricity.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  22. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    ......In my case, I'll fly along until the sight gauges in the wing tanks empty out (I have another 30 to 45 minutes of fuel sloshing around in the bottom after I can't see any) then I'll pump most of the gas out of the aux tank, often leaving a gallon or two), this will fill the mains back up to sight gauge level. Then I'll run them down again, making a note of the time so I can estimate when the mains will be truly empty, THEN I start turning around every few minutes until I see the fuel level dropping in the 3 gallon sight gauge equipped header tank. When I see it dropping down past the 1/2 gallon mark, I start thinking about where to land to get more fuel, (!!) while still of course having a 30 min reserve in the aux. tank. A slight exaggeration but the idea is I can "run out" several times before I REALLY run out, and I'll never be unsure when that will be, I can predict it to the minute. I carry 35 gallons and burn less then 4 GPH, but flight plan for 4.

    None of this may be applicable for your bird but this system has gotten me home many times, without making a fuel stop late in the flight, just because I knew exactly how much fuel I had left thanks to the sight gauge in that header tank.
    Courier,

    You have bigger stones than me...I NEVER get that close to not hearing the engine run. Maybe it's having too many diverts while IFR but I always get nervous when I get down to 1 hr fuel left.

    I am interested in your header tank with the sight gauge. Where's it located and do you have the option of not burning fuel out of it and saving it for "later" if needed? My very helpful and always thoughtful #2 son is trying to convince me to put a 4 gal header tank in under the dash but I'm not terribly excited about having fuel dumped on my feet in case of a hard nose over or something else like an unintended impact. Having a pump on board could allow me to place the tank most anywhere and still have the option of having another 1/2 hour of fuel...if weight and balance allows. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be nose heavy so 24 lbs in the back in the form of fuel might be smart if the situation warrants.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  23. #823

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    I have a clear line coming down from the wing tank to the header tank in the windshield post, this is my 2 minute left, site gauge.

  24. #824
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    I didn't say I didn't get nervous, I just said at least I'll know exactly when the prop will stop. I like that idea tempdoug, my header setup is just like that except it's a good 45 minutes. It's a little awkward to turn around and eyeball the header sight line, but if motivated enough it gets a lot easier. Any problems with having a tank behind you in a crash makes the concept a non starter, my choice is clear.....and yes I have stood it up on the spinner, and had some other adventures, all stayed where it should.

    Some/most RANS using this system use a 'glas tank, and use the space a bit better (while still largely out of the way) so have 4 gallons, I opted for a bit smaller, 3 gallons, and had a cardboard mockup duct taped together, complete with fittings marked right where they went, and then shipped the whole thing to a pro tank welder, and it came back perfect. I could do my next one better, but this works as is, any crash sufficient to dislodge it is going be pretty severe, I try not to do that. It's tied in there more then looks apparent. For the Rotax's fuel needs anyway, head pressure is sufficient to get the fuel to the engine mounted fuel pump, down to the last drop, tested in flight with the aux tank fueled as a backup. Interestingly, once the engine stopped, and i turned the valve for the aux tank and hit the transfer pump, re-start was instant, though the pump had no time to re-fill the mains or the header, it was working right off the aux tank I guess.

    Here's a shot of the aux tank, Walmart has them in the aviation department, with gauge and carry handle for less the 60 bucks. The ABW gas bags also serves as additional adjustable lumbar support, depending on how tight the caps are and how high you climb. When transferring fuel in flight, if I forget to turn the pump off in time as it empties, it makes the engine stumble, like I did this morning going over Lost Trail Pass, with normal running instantly when I finally get around to turning the pump off, (about a nano second after the stumble this last time). The header is plumbed open, no way wanted or needed to separate it, (KISS) the sight gauge is the key.

  25. #825
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    I'm scared!! But...I do like your seat covers!!
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #826
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    Courier,

    Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner...#3 son is here with his girlfriend.

    Did you choose the "up high" location so you would gravity feed from the header? With the boat tank you're using a pump...right? I'm still wondering if I should make provisions for an aux tank in the tail behind the cargo floor...like LilCub did in his plane.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  27. #827
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    High up for the head pressure, and because it's more out of the way there. Aux tank has a floor mounted pump. BTW, the little EarthX battery does a great job, with plenty of amps left over even after pumping 30 gallons for a normal start, doesn't seem to draw it down at all.

  28. #828
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    Your battery is on the firewall...so a pair of 14 ga wires (one thru a switch) is all you need to the pump...right?

    I was thinking of using my fuel trailer battery to run the pump in cases when I pump from the tank to the plane. It's good to know your onboard battery will provide enough juice to pump and start your engine. I'm thinking a geared light wt starter will quickly start my 0-320 with electronic ignition and still have lots left to run LED lights, radio and the like. Moving fuel from an aux tank to the mains would be on the main plane battery and I'm not sure what I'm looking at as far as total electrical load yet. I may go with two smaller batteries, one to start with and one for other things.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  29. #829
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    Question for you technical guys...is a lock washer and properly torqued nut more secure than a nylock nut on the same style bolt? I know the most secure is probably a castle nut and drilled bolt but I've found it to be difficult to get the proper torque on one and have the "castle" in line with the silly hole in the bolt...do you over torque or under torque to get them to line up??
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  30. #830
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    Question for you technical guys...is a lock washer and properly torqued nut more secure than a nylock nut on the same style bolt? I know the most secure is probably a castle nut and drilled bolt but I've found it to be difficult to get the proper torque on one and have the "castle" in line with the silly hole in the bolt...do you over torque or under torque to get them to line up?? What about a nylock in contact with fuel or brake fluid?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  31. #831

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    "...do you over torque or under torque to get them to line up?" That is the main use for thin AN washers. With some combination of standard and thin washers you can usually get it in the torque range.

    Doug

  32. #832
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    That's a good point Doug. If you haven't heard the click, then it should be the thick washer to get the hole lined up and get the click at the same spot. Does that make sense?

    Any thoughts on brake fluid and nylocks or split ring lock washers?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  33. #833

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    The charts will usually give you a torque range. How I do it is set the click type torque wrench on the lowest number in the range and tighten till it clicks. Check the holes, if it is not lined up, reset torque wrench to upper number in range. See if you can go till a hole lined up before it clicks. Usually it works, if not then play with combinations of thin and standard washers.
    Never heard of brake fluid hurting nylocks. Don't like split washers on airplanes.

    Doug

  34. #834
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    Doug,

    Do you find that once you have determined how many of what washers to get the nuts to "click" at the right spot, then as long as you don't change the materials you can use the same combination without having to "recalibrate" the setup?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  35. #835

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    Not really. Did I say I like nylocks?
    If in the engine compartment use all steel lock nuts.

    Doug

  36. #836
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    Now that we have that settled!!

    Back to split lock washers...I like them because you can torque them properly and then "stake" the thread with a punch and still have a safe nut that vibration should not shake loose and can be removed if necessary, although the bolt and nut are pretty well ruined if removed...a cheap price to pay for peace of mind where bolts and nuts are concerned.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  37. #837
    marcusofcotton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Now that we have that settled!!

    Back to split lock washers...I like them because you can torque them properly and then "stake" the thread with a punch and still have a safe nut that vibration should not shake loose and can be removed if necessary, although the bolt and nut are pretty well ruined if removed...a cheap price to pay for peace of mind where bolts and nuts are concerned.
    Doesn't sound very conducive to field repairs. I like the aviation standards that have evolved.

    Mark J
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  38. #838
    Lowrider
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    True. What would you suggest Mark? Nylocks should be one time use also.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  39. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    True. What would you suggest Mark? Nylocks should be one time use also.
    Good point, but if in a pinch, I'd rather have the option of reusing a nylock (or just replacing the nylock) as compared to having a bolt and nut with stripped threads (which occasionally won't unscrew when desired as well). Easier to carry some spare nuts in the emergency kit than a complete bolt selection.
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  40. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    ...I like them because you can torque them properly and then "stake" the thread with a punch and still have a safe nut that vibration should not shake loose and can be removed if necessary, although the bolt and nut are pretty well ruined if removed....
    This is a seldom used practice on airplanes. I can think of only one place where I've seen staking. That is with the aluminum bolts which attach the EDO 1650, 2000 and 2130 spreader bars to their end fittings. These would only be removed on rare occasions and would be destroyed in the process.
    N1PA

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