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Thread: PA 12 Want to add Flaps

  1. #41

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    I must have been one of the first to get it!

  2. #42
    R. JOHNSON's Avatar
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    Got to the point to hang the wings to hook up the flaps for a dry fit before cover. The bellcranks were placed at the top of the spar close to the cap as possible as per the Dakota Cub blueprint and photos of other installations. The problem now though is the aileron cables rub against the bottom of the flap bellcranks. I'm not really sure how to remedy this and was curious as to if anyone has encountered this and has a fix for it? Some initial thoughts of my own on it were to install a smaller diameter pulley where they exit the fuselage by doing this the cable would run lower up to the first fairlead and hopefully clear the bellcrank. Any ideas will be greatly appreciated. Ryan
    Ryan

  3. #43
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. JOHNSON View Post
    Got to the point to hang the wings to hook up the flaps for a dry fit before cover. The bellcranks were placed at the top of the spar close to the cap as possible as per the Dakota Cub blueprint and photos of other installations. The problem now though is the aileron cables rub against the bottom of the flap bellcranks. I'm not really sure how to remedy this and was curious as to if anyone has encountered this and has a fix for it? Some initial thoughts of my own on it were to install a smaller diameter pulley where they exit the fuselage by doing this the cable would run lower up to the first fairlead and hopefully clear the bellcrank. Any ideas will be greatly appreciated. Ryan
    not that i did this to redirect cable(Day & Night flap mod..not familiar with Dakotas..), but mores to keep the soft 7x19 cable from sagging onto the hangers(original had that harder cable), but you might be able to get what you want doing this... top view, block of ski bottom type plastic.. phenolic would work too... or use a real piper fairlead...

  4. #44
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    Geezerhood causes memory issues. Seems I recall using Piper fairleads to guide cable ( had to build brackets ) Seems I remember an A&I saying it was O.K. as long as the deflection did not exceed 5 degrees. My Ailerons are VERY smooth and many who have flown my old beater have commented on that.

  5. #45

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    pix of my project and Ron Sullivan's drawings.
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  6. #46

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    I had Univair build me a set of 14 wings and there were some special brackets used to solve your problem.

    If I were you, I would give them a call and get a set of their 14 wing drawings, which shows the parts and placement of everything.

    They may be able to sell you the parts you need to make what you have work.

    Everyone should note that Univair's 14 flap installation has better, accurate drawings as opposed to those that are associated with the 18 flap mod STC.

  7. #47
    Crash's Avatar
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    Univair also sells a kit to do it.

    http://www.univair.com/piper/piper-p...it-less-flaps/

    Crash

  8. #48

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    Crash

    That kit is not what I was referring to.

    I'm pretty sure the 14 flaps are different, and better.

  9. #49
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    I had to use a standard fairlead to make the aileron cable clear the flap mechanism. Then installed an inspection cover to be able to inspect / rotate / replace the fairlead plastic if necessary. My ailerons are nice and smooth. I don't think you want a smaller pulley on the fuselage, due to possible cable fatigue issues. Sorry, I don't have any photos of that.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  10. #50
    Crash's Avatar
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    The kit includes everything except flaps. PA-14 flaps are different then PA-18 flaps. I have blueprints for PA-14 flaps. Had Airframes Inc make a set off my blueprints when I rebuilt mine.

    Crash

  11. #51

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    Just to be clear, 14 flaps are longer than 18 flaps and the attachment points are in a different position.

  12. #52
    R. JOHNSON's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the replies. I think there must be more than one Day and Night STC, the one I'm using, STC SA578AL uses a standard lenth PA-18 flap with the bellcrank/accuator at the inboard flap hangar same as a PA-18.

    I started the project using the blueprint that Dakota Cub supplied with their PA-18 flap kit which has you place the bellcrank at the top of the spar cap. I assumed (yes I know what happens when you assume) that the Dakota kit was used in conjunction with STC SA578AL all of which was being supplied to me by the owner of the aircraft but now I'm not sure the Dakota kit is particular to any one STC. I'll be calling Dakota Cub and Ron Sullivan Later today.

    Gordon, I had those same concerns with a smaller pulley. I'm thinking the route to go will be a type of fairlead arrangment to keep the cable away from the bellcrank.

    Thanks,

    Ryan
    Last edited by R. JOHNSON; 01-14-2014 at 10:24 AM. Reason: misspelled word
    Ryan

  13. #53

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    I would be happy to show anyone my new uncovered Univair PA 14 wings. They are located in Springfield Illinois.


    For those of you who might be considering adding flaps to a 12, it might be worth it for you to take a drive down and see them for yourself.


    Best wishes,


    Paul Heinrich

  14. #54

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    As you can see, I used the Ron Sullivan STC but I too got the flaps and hangers from Dakota Cub... when I ordered everything I told them I was using Sullivan's plans and everything fit pretty well. Those are some really long flaps!

  15. #55
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    Paul,

    How about posting a handful of pics? My car is froze in, so getting to Springfield is not in my near future. Ones that would be particularly helpful would be of the rear spar in the bellcrank vicinity to see how Piper addressed the interference of the aileron cables vs. the bellcrank.

    BES posted some pics of his flap crank install here http://www.supercub.org/photopost/sh...500&ppuser=156

    My prints of the flap installation (SA578AL) don't include the block to redirect the aileron cable. The signature block is totally different than the pic in av8rtom's post.

    Has anyone posted pics of the marden prints yet?

    Wayne

  16. #56
    R. JOHNSON's Avatar
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    Wayne, that's the same STC I'm using. I can post some pictures of it soon. I think I've got a pretty good solution for the forward aileron cable/bellcrank interference by using an additional fairlead off of the inboard flap hangar on the same order as the pics Mike S. posted earlier in this thread. As for where the rear aileron cable interferes with the accuator I think I'll go with the same thing as in the pics posted by av8rtom.

    Another issue I've encountered with this project is the rear aileron cable rubs (ever so slightly) on the rear false spar brace of the ribs. These are Dakota Cub PA-12 ribs. I'm now either faced with making new fairlead pieces on the ribs or notching all the rib braces. This issue has nothing to due with the addition of the flaps and is more an issue with the ribs.

    Has anyone else had this problem with Dakota ribs and if so what did you do to fix?

    Thanks,

    Ryan

    Agian, I'll try and post some pictures soon.
    Ryan

  17. #57
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here our some photos. We were able to make a fairlead bracket the bolts to the inside of the inboard flap hangar that keeps the cable out of the bellcrank. I'll still have to make another fairlead for the forward cable where it hits the accuator with full flaps pulled. The aileron cables are no longer rubbing on the rib braces when tensioned.

    Ryan
    Ryan

  18. #58
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Another issue I've encountered with this project is the rear aileron cable rubs (ever so slightly) on the rear false spar brace of the ribs. These are Dakota Cub PA-12 ribs. I'm now either faced with making new fairlead pieces on the ribs or notching all the rib braces. This issue has nothing to due with the addition of the flaps and is more an issue with the ribs.

    Has anyone else had this problem with Dakota ribs and if so what did you do to fix?
    I used Dakota ribs on my 12 also, and had to relieve rib gussets. I used a die grinder to make a rounded contour for the cutouts.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  19. #59
    flybynite's Avatar
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    Thanks for the pics, Ryan.

    The Pacer uses fairleads like that on the hinge for keeping the cables tidy.

    Wayne

  20. #60

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    These photos are from the new PA14 wings I bought from Univair.

    They show how Piper solved the Flap/Aileron control cable clearance issue that arises when Flaps are installed on a 12/14 wing.

    Note the brown triangular phenolic standoff inserted on the rib to provide separation clearance between the Aileron control cable and the Flap Bellcrank and the spacers attached to the Bellcrank itself, which provides clearance for the Flap return spring doohickey.

    I also received an original PA14 wing drawing from Univair that shows the part numbers and installation details, so anyone who wants to install 14 (or 18 Flaps) on their 12 can get one from Univair for guidance.

    In my opinion, 14 Flaps are better than 18 Flaps on a 12 for a number of reasons: they are longer, the wing attachment and actuator attachment points are wider and better centered, they were designed to fit the 12/14 trailing edge, and, it seems to me, that Piper chose this design, rather than the 18 design, for a reason and who am I to question their engineers.


    I'll bet, too, that the guy who got the 18 Flap on a 12 STC chose 18 flaps rather than 14 Flaps because he had a set laying around or knew they were readily available because Piper was still making 18 Flaps, not because they were a better design for a 12.

    I hope this helps.


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    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 03-21-2014 at 07:11 AM.

  21. #61
    R. JOHNSON's Avatar
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    That is a slick way of doing it, thanks for posting that info.

    Ryan
    Ryan

  22. #62

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    By the way, does anyone know for sure if the Flap installation approved in the PA12 TCDS uses 14, 18, or some other Flap?

  23. #63

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    Does anyone have the part numbers of those fair leads and guides? I need to order them today.

  24. #64

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    Ron Sullivan has the STC for the 12..., he calls for PA-18 ailerons with flap hinges installed. I ordered a set of ailerons from Dakota and they installed flap hinges... pretty nice! They are very familiar with the set up. As for the part number on the block.., Sullivan's plans have a part number call-out, but it's bogus...., no such part number! I made mine to suit and they look just like the one's in previous posts on the 14. I also posted pix of mine earlier.

  25. #65
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post

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    These pictures seem to show a small change of direction in the cable over the phenolic fairlead. If so, this could cause premature wear on the side of the cable. Particularly if the cable is stainless steel. I have found stainless cables worn where they were rubbing on a phenolic chafe strip in several Cessna 185s. This was on less of an angle change than that which is shown in the pictures. I would suggest that you substitute something which is less abrasive and more slippery than phenolic, such as delrin or nylon. The same material which is used in that white bushing in the center picture would be good. At the very least, if you don't change the materiel, be sure to grease the cable with some durable lubricant.
    N1PA

  26. #66

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    Has anyone added these guides or fair leads with fabric on? The pics are great. I've been putting this project off but I'm running out of fun stuff to do. Thanks in advance.

  27. #67
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PIPER J5.5 View Post
    Has anyone added these guides or fair leads with fabric on? The pics are great. I've been putting this project off but I'm running out of fun stuff to do. Thanks in advance.
    yup.. done a couple sets...

  28. #68

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    Flap installation particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    yup.. done a couple sets...
    Hi Mike, I had to install my flap handle and shaft mount on my new to me 12 airframe. Got out my Sullivan flap installation STC plans from the logs and reproduced the original installation. But...the only dimension that I could not find on the plan is the length of the arm on the axle of the flap lever that the flap cable is attached to. Too long and it will screw up the flap actuation in relation to the notches, and too short and you won't get the right amount of flaps. Do you know that critical dimension? My other option is to drill loots of holes in the arm and wing it. I hate winging it!




    thanks, John

  29. #69
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I don't recall messing with the length of the bellcrank arm, but getting the clocking right with respect to the first pulley the cable contacts did take some trial and error. Small variations in that geometry can have a significant effect on the flap deflection. I think (not certain) that I also changed the clocking of that arm with respect to the flap handle. For sure, there's some trial and error involved with that STC. Also in the wing, there are interferences if using the STC drawings for locating the bellcrank. It's a tight fit, and again, there is some trial and error involved.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  30. #70

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    My problem is that I moved my project 2000 miles and lost the old flap handle arm somewhere along the way....I think it's about 4 inches or so but would just as soon get it right on. I have the same wings so would rather adjust the arm than have to rerig the wings. Everything was working fine when removed for the airframe rebuild originally. When I did the Borer gross weight increase there was lots of interference to work out with other mods. Thanks. John

    Sent from my [device_name] using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  31. #71
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrdflyr View Post
    Hi Mike, I had to install my flap handle and shaft mount on my new to me 12 airframe. Got out my Sullivan flap installation STC plans from the logs and reproduced the original installation. But...the only dimension that I could not find on the plan is the length of the arm on the axle of the flap lever that the flap cable is attached to. Too long and it will screw up the flap actuation in relation to the notches, and too short and you won't get the right amount of flaps. Do you know that critical dimension? My other option is to drill loots of holes in the arm and wing it. I hate winging it!




    thanks, John
    i just use PA-18 handle http://www.supercubproject.com/drawi...s/A3310074.pdf there a few blueprints there,

  32. #72

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    PA-18 flap handle drawing

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    i just use PA-18 handle http://www.supercubproject.com/drawi...s/A3310074.pdf there a few blueprints there,
    Thanks, Mike, it is the 2 5/16 inch dimension I needed.

  33. #73
    moneyburner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PIPER J5.5 View Post
    Ryan, I highly recommend if you have stock tanks upgrade to Dakota 24 gallon tanks at the same time.

    Dakota parts are very nice to work with.
    I'll second that recommendation.
    Likes Hardtailjohn liked this post

  34. #74
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    I have the day/night arc installed, and have the supplement in the plane. I’m away from the plane and trying to let wag aero know what markings I need on my new airspeed indicator. Does anybody have the supplement they can pm me or post here the speeds for markings?
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  35. #75
    moneyburner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiakmack View Post
    I have the day/night arc installed, and have the supplement in the plane. I’m away from the plane and trying to let wag aero know what markings I need on my new airspeed indicator. Does anybody have the supplement they can pm me or post here the speeds for markings?
    Here’ mine; PA-12 with PA-14 flaps installed under CAA rules. This MAY NOT APPLY TO YOUR SITUATION.

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  36. #76
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyburner View Post
    Here’ mine; PA-12 with PA-14 flaps installed under CAA rules. This MAY NOT APPLY TO YOUR SITUATION.

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    thank you, but I have -18 flaps installed, and imagine there’s the possibility of different numbers. Also hard to tell EXACTLY, what the numbers here would be. Looking for someone with the supplement in hand for the day and night with -18 flaps.
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  37. #77

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    page 6 of the March 26, 1976 paper work from day night says "paint a new white arc from 46mph to 85mph", I'll text you a photo of that paperwork. that's the only reference to airspeed indicator so assume nothing else changes.

    doug
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  38. #78

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    Can someone get word to MikeMCS that he is missed?
    Likes Broncoformudv, TurboBeaver, Brandsman liked this post

  39. #79
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

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