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Flap conversion

S

skywagonirv

MEMBER
I own a 1950 PA-18 that did not come with flaps. I'm looking for info on what I need to convert these wings to have flaps. Specificly paper work, what I need and where do I get it to make it all legal as I wish to keep this AC certified.Thanks
 
covered or uncovered wings?

you can do this with a covered wing, takes some creativity, but i done a few sets...

split fabric at trailing edge, cut stiches that are in the way, gently rool fabric forward, don't let it crease I roll it over a 2 or 3 in tube to help prevent creasing.

cut & convert ribs to flap bay style where needed.

install belcrank & spring

install flap hangers & stop

install trailing edge false spar for flap bay

glue fabric back on..

string cable in fuselage(pulley mounts should be there already?)

add flap handle...

paperwork? installed flaps per piper drawing ###### ???? don't remember....
 
The wings are completely uncovered.I will have to add pulley mounts on fuselage. I was more wondering if I have to have an STC or something to do this conversion. Because this aircraft never came with flaps I don't think it will be on the type cert. Does the fact that it is a PA-18 and that the later model PA-18's came with flaps automatically make mine able to have flaps installed by referring to the later model type cert.? These may be odd questions but I'm kinda new to this cub stuff!
Thanks
 
Now, does everyone agree that if it on the Type Cert it is legal to put on an airplane listed on the type cert unless it is listed for a specific model on that TC.

IE. you can't just put a Lycoming O-320-A2B on a 90 hp cub. (or can you)

So how does one get by putting flaps on PA-18 (only) if they are only listed for the PA-18-125. 135 and 150?

601. Flaps in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12544 for PA-18 "125", or Piper Dwg.
No. 13766 for Models PA-18 "135" and PA-18 "150"


Yes I know Piper put them on the PA-18 when they put a Lyc 105 on them. But How by TC?
 
Since I have a 1950 PA-18 with a 108 Lyc and flaps I am going with "Specifications Pertinent to All Models" on page 6, scroll down to "Control Surface Movements" and Flap 0 degrees Up and 50 degrees +- 2 degrees down. Works for me. Jim
 
PA-22/20-160 said:
Flaps are listed as optional equipment for all serial numbers,where did you get that? O-320's are only listed for searal numbers that fall into PA-18-150's. look at the data plate on a pa-18-90, 105 or 125 and they are all say (PA-18) so does that mean it has to have a lycoming on it to have flaps,I don't know, that's why I'm asking that's not how I read 601 on the T.C. If someone handed you a data plate that said PA-18 and came from the factory as a 125 could you not put a 90 on it.
Click to expand...


On the same note as your last question, if an airplane came with a 150 but fell under the S/N's list for the 18 thru 18-135 could you put a 90 on it as is? (s/n 18-3781 thru 18-7632)
 
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Skywagonirv,

My 2c:

Your PA-18 is listed on the TC 1A2 under roman numeral I.
serial nos. eligible = 18-1 and up.
Miscellaneous, item 601 Flaps in accordance with Piper dwg. No. 12544.

You need to look at drawing # 12544. (I can not locate this drawing. Perhaps someone here can.) The title box in the lower right corner of this drawing should tell you which models are eligible for the flap installation. If there is no model number listed then dwg. 12544 would be eligible on all of the models.

Based on the note in that box or elsewhere on the drawing, I would install the flaps as a minor alteration with only a log book entry. "Installed flaps in accordance with Piper Drawing number 12455. Installed bungee cables in accordance with Piper drawing number 12263. Horizontal tail surfaces installed in accordance with Piper drawings no. 12789 and 12790." signed by your local A&P.

That being said there is a requirement that welding on a structure is a major repair or alteration. A 337 and an IA would be required in this case.

There is no STC required as the alteration is approved under the original type certificate.
 
Thanks for the help on this, If anyone knows where I can get a copy of drawing#12544 that would be great. Just getting into the project so there will be many more things come up.
Thanks
Rod
 
skywagon8a said:
Skywagonirv,

My 2c:

Your PA-18 is listed on the TC 1A2 under roman numeral I.
serial nos. eligible = 18-1 and up.
Miscellaneous, item 601 Flaps in accordance with Piper dwg. No. 12544.
Click to expand...

8a
are you involved in politics by any chance ;-)
you conveniently left off the for PA-18 "125".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't do it.
I'm just wondering what the next IA to Annual it will say or the greenhorn FAA guy .
 
S2D said:
8a
are you involved in politics by any chance ;-)
you conveniently left off the for PA-18 "125".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't do it.
I'm just wondering what the next IA to Annual it will say or the greenhorn FAA guy .
Click to expand...

No politics S2D, I am looking at a hard copy of the TC. Remember when they used to send out printed copies? There is no reference to any particular model. I see your point. I just looked at FAA.gov. Some time between when they stopped printing hard copies in 1977 and now, they have inserted a restriction so that item 601 only applies to the 125, 135 and 150 models. So, it seems that at some point in time between 1977 and today the approval for the other models has been removed. What do those folks who accomplished the procedure as I described above do now? Take the flaps off? Or is there a "grandfather" date?

There has to be an explanation for this somewhere. Does Gordon Mandel of the FAA in Anchorage monitor this forum? He would be able give us the correct answer. Gordon, where are you?
 
That's interesting that it wasn't on the hard copy. What revision was that?
Is an old revision still valid?
I've beat my head against the wall for years over that and it was as simple as a revision change.

I had that problem with an 11CC one time. Had a big placard on the panel for an RPM restriction but couldn't find out where in AD's or TCDS they came up with it. Finally found an original Type Specs sheet that had it on it. Removed in later ones.
 
If the modificaation were made suring the time that the TCDS allowed it wouldn't it, in the absence of an AD or Service Bulletin saying that it is no longer OK, be still legal?
 
Chuck
What revision are you looking at?
the one posted on WWW.airweb.faa.gov specifically has "125" on it.


this is exactly what revision 38 has on it

601. Flaps in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12544 for PA-18 "125", or Piper Dwg.
No. 13766 for Models PA-18 "135" and PA-18 "150"
When installed the following items are also required:
(a) Deleted - June 13, 1951.
(b) Horizontal tail surface installed in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12789
and 12790.
(c) Bungee cables installed in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12263
 
Chuck
I'm not arguing that it can't be done.
that it hasn't been done , or that any are illegal
But...
Why did they change the TDCS and put "for PA-18-125's"

The part in the floats would be good fodder for justification



Where are the FAA lurkers when we need them???

I'm sure if you will do all the paperwork Irv needs, he'll have no problem.
 
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My hard copy is revision 34, March 17,1977.

I hadn't looked at the float section. item 209(a) clearly states that the flaps are optional with the small engines and required with the larger engines. That makes me more comfortable with my original statement. There is no question in my mind that the installation of flaps on any PA-18 model, which never had flaps from the factory, IS an approved minor alteration and only requires a log book entry by an A&P. No 337 or IA is required. The only question would be if there is some welding required. But, since that would be called out on the approved drawing, it may be a non issue.

This has been a good discussion. I had never really given this much thought.
 
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All you guys have been really helpfull, If there is more info out there keep it coming! I am in Canada but I don't think that will make any difference as rules there are generally rules here. This cub has been mothballed for almost 30 years and was dimantled and stored in flying condition.I bought it recently and am trying to upgrade it with flaps, 2nd fuel tank and 0320 among other things people have been saying to do. I go to the Alaska Airmans Show every year and have gotten a lot of good advice about what I should do. If any of you were going to buy new flaps from somewhere whose do you think are the ones to get? I'm thinking of staying with the standard flap.Thanks again Rod
 
skywagonirv said:
All you guys have been really helpfull, If there is more info out there keep it coming! I am in Canada but I don't think that will make any difference as rules there are generally rules here. This cub has been mothballed for almost 30 years and was dimantled and stored in flying condition.I bought it recently and am trying to upgrade it with flaps, 2nd fuel tank and 0320 among other things people have been saying to do. I go to the Alaska Airmans Show every year and have gotten a lot of good advice about what I should do. If any of you were going to buy new flaps from somewhere whose do you think are the ones to get? I'm thinking of staying with the standard flap.Thanks again Rod
Click to expand...



What year / sn is it ? If it is a later 90 hp, you don't even need a 337 to put an 0-320 on it :wink::wink:
 
skywagonirv said:
All you guys have been really helpfull, If there is more info out there keep it coming! I am in Canada but I don't think that will make any difference as rules there are generally rules here. This cub has been mothballed for almost 30 years and was dimantled and stored in flying condition.I bought it recently and am trying to upgrade it with flaps, 2nd fuel tank and 0320 among other things people have been saying to do. I go to the Alaska Airmans Show every year and have gotten a lot of good advice about what I should do. If any of you were going to buy new flaps from somewhere whose do you think are the ones to get? I'm thinking of staying with the standard flap.Thanks again Rod
Click to expand...

Don't get toooo far ahead of yourself... seen numerous SCubs get grounded up here thanks to a book full of 337's and such. TC accepts NOTHING but STC'd modificationss so be absolutely sure what you are doing meets the type certificate. Run it past your local TC inspector for clarification IN WRITTING before you proceed.
 
Hi irishfield
Everything Im adding I plan to have an STC. Except of course the flap conversion and fuel tank. I'm hoping to get someone who has done exactly what I'm trying to do to chime in and help me with all the proper procedures. So far I'm a lot more informed than when I started.Thanks to all
Rod
 
Adding gear with hydra-sorbs to an early 18 with shock cords only would be a log book entry? Jim
 
Heres a question, PA-18 with a C90. It's within the sn range so you can put an 0320 on. per the tcds.(18-3771; 18-3781 through 18-9015; 18-7309016 through 18-8309025; and 1809001 through1809113.)
Now what about flaps. I know the factory 18-150's had flaps But under required equipment it doesn't say flaps are required. The airspeed limits on the pa-18-150 mentions flaps though.

Miscellaneous 601 says Flaps in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12544 for PA-18 "125", or Piper Dwg. No. 13766 for Models PA-18 "135" and PA-18 "150"When installed the following items are also required:
  2. (a) Deleted - June 13, 1951.
  3. (b) Horizontal tail surface installed in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12789
    and 12790.
  4. (c) Bungee cables installed in accordance with Piper Dwg. No. 12263.




So my question is can you convert c90 pa-18. It's registered as a Piper PA-18. Not PA-18-90 or any other dash. It's in the Sn range to a 320 by the tcds, but not add flaps?

My thought is it needs flaps if it's going to be configured as a -18-150 but another mechanic is saying it doesn't need them because it doesn't specifically say flaps are required.
 
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I agree with the other mechanic. The flaps are item 601. 601 is not listed under the required equipment. As long as the serial number falls within the permitted range, you are golden. As I recall from years ago, flaps were offered as an option. It is likely that very few or none were ordered without them. Minor alteration.
RaisedByWolves said:
So my question is can you convert c90 pa-18. It's registered as a Piper PA-18. Not PA-18-90 or any other dash. It's in the Sn range to a 320 by the tcds, but not add flaps?

My thought is it needs flaps if it's going to be configured as a -18-150 but another mechanic is saying it doesn't need them because it doesn't specifically say flaps are required.
Click to expand...

Required Equipment In addition to the pertinent required basic equipment specified in CAR 3, the following itemsof equipment must be installed:Items 5(a), 109 or 111, 201(a) or 201(c), 202, 204, 401(q) for S/N 18-3771,S/N 18-3781 through 18-9015, and 18-7309016 through 18-8309025 or 401(s) forS/N 1809001 through 1809113.
 
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