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  1. #1881
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Stress cracks next to welds....there must be some guidance to reduce that (?). I wonder if failure is gradual or sudden? If gradual any cracking might be hard to see under the fabric. But the metal is exposed at the hinge due to typical fabric application methods so external corrosion focused there is a possibility. The NTSB's metal analysis mentioned will be revealing. If the rudder's shaking some I'd think the pins and bushings would reflect that. Maybe once they get loose it gets worse - the vibration.

    Gary
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  2. #1882
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Interesting that 2/3 are bent in the same direction-to the left. Would make sense if it was a stress issue to bend that way as you normally use more right rudder than left. Over a long enough period of time maybe?

    The balance tab forward rib seems to be the place where it breaks. Possible that the weld was too hot or not enough filler was used and pulled material from the tube. That would account for a loss of material in roughly 40% of the tube circumference at that point.
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  3. #1883
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Interesting that 2/3 are bent in the same direction-to the left. Would make sense if it was a stress issue to bend that way as you normally use more right rudder than left. Over a long enough period of time maybe?

    The balance tab forward rib seems to be the place where it breaks. Possible that the weld was too hot or not enough filler was used and pulled material from the tube. That would account for a loss of material in roughly 40% of the tube circumference at that point.
    It's kind of sobering. I'm looking hard at a rudder I welded up a couple of years ago.

  4. #1884
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    How would a fabricator/welder know if the weld compromised the rudder tube?

    Gary
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  5. #1885
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    How would a fabricator/welder know if the weld compromised the rudder tube?

    Gary
    Not really sure except to check for good penetration and maybe warping. I actually tested an earlier version of mine by twisting the top. The ribs buckled first.

  6. #1886
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    So all 3 rudders were on 12's from the same area. Two have the same sort of paint scheme... I ain't sherlock holmes but I would be looking for a connection and the origin of the rudders.

  7. #1887
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    How would a fabricator/welder know if the weld compromised the rudder tube?

    Gary
    Normally you can just tell by the color of the weld and checking for undercutting at the sides of the weld bead. Once you get paint or other coating on it's much harder to tell without running a bore scope into the tube to see if there is deformation on the interior of the tube wall.
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  8. #1888
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    After going over those pictures again, I have to take that back. The break point seems to be just up from the upper hinge point, not the rib facing forward. Interesting that it breaks there as there is really no weld to speak of at that point but it is the last point supported by the hinge line going upwards so structural fatigue may be the issue.

  9. #1889

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    How would a fabricator/welder know if the weld compromised the rudder tube?

    Gary
    Being a skilled fabricator, one has learned just what a good weld is while you are doing it. In a nutshell looking at a weld from the outside, many of the prettiest welds might well have insufficient penetration. There are welders that can not for the life of them properly join .028 wall to .065 tube. Something that comes easy to some but not others.
    Inspection by visual means, general shape of the fillet, clean edges, under cutting or a step or sharp edges. Caricaturist tell tails that a skilled welder and inspector can determine if something is good, or needs to be looked into.
    If the area is painted or god forbid powder coated it is all but impossible to see the surface texture of the material to judge what temperature the metal had been brought to during the weld process.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process
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  10. #1890
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Tig welds. Usually more likely to crack tube next to weld on thin tube like this. As penetration is very abrupt compared to oxy welds.....

    Never seen what shown. But all 3 at lake hood I assume???? Windy place. I like stewarts assumption of gust lock up top most of year.....


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  11. #1891

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    My rudder top hinge is higher up than those shown. I never thought much about it but a Cub rudder appears set up to fail faster with that top hinge location than it would be if the hinge was up as high as practical to the top of the fin.
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  12. #1892
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My rudder top hinge is higher up than those shown. I never thought much about it but a Cub rudder appears set up to fail faster with that top hinge location than it would be if the hinge was up as high as practical to the top of the fin.
    That observation makes sense to me. Reduces the lever arm of whatever is pushing on these. Is there any downside? I can't think of one.
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  13. #1893
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    So what next for Cub rudders? Another expensive SAIB or AD based upon a small % of fleet? Something unique was wrong with those rudders.

    Gary
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  14. #1894

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    little heavier walled rudder post, maybe along with a little longer hinge??

  15. #1895
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    little heavier walled rudder post, maybe along with a little longer hinge??
    Don't jump towards requiring alterations or repairs to thousands of rudders when there have been only three failures with undocumented histories in question. This FAA inquiry is a fishing expedition looking for something to do.

  16. #1896

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    Maybe, but I bet a lot of guys have wiggled their rudders and looked closely at the top hinges as a result. That's not a bad thing.

    I thought it interesting that in the picture two failed to one side and one failed opposite. What factors played into that?

    Backcountry used unusual rudder and elevator hinges on my plane. I wasn't a fan but it wasn't worth changing. Maybe it has an advantage with big tailfeathers, a heavy Cub, and lots of horsepower? Can't say. A preflight item, for sure.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  17. #1897
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Maybe, but I bet a lot of guys have wiggled their rudders and looked closely at the top hinges as a result. That's not a bad thing.

    I thought it interesting that in the picture two failed to one side and one failed opposite. What factors played into that?

    Backcountry used unusual rudder and elevator hinges on my plane. I wasn't a fan but it wasn't worth changing. Maybe it has an advantage with big tailfeathers, a heavy Cub, and lots of horsepower? Can't say. A preflight item, for sure.
    That style hinge was common back in the 1920s and 30s. Useful for minimizing the gap.
    N1PA
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  18. #1898

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    Strap hinges are very good, especially when lined with a low friction material, which few Have. Yours are drilled for lubrication which is also lacking on many planes.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process
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  19. #1899
    jimboflying's Avatar
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    What should the right and left deflection of the rudder be on a PA12?

  20. #1900
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    20 deg per TCDS A-780
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  21. #1901

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    To answer post 1892, Piper seems interested in putting the hinge next to the wires, Backcountry, not so much. So the concern is not for the tail post but the possible binding of the longer Piper hinges .
    What's a go-around?
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  22. #1902
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    not much information yet, any update or new links??


    https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...o-naknek-lake/

  23. #1903
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    not much information yet, any update or new links??


    https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...o-naknek-lake/
    Katmai air

    “Some sort of emergency then landed Naknek lake, broke spreader between floats still there”



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  24. #1904
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    In my backyard, and yes it does get crossed up there fairly regularly, though the strip is quite wide. Wide enough so the last time I landed there with a good x wind, I weaseled out and easily landed across it, straight onto the wind. What got me about this picture was the normal looking airplane, not downside up or on fire, and no injuries. Hardly seems worth the time of the local LEO to even be there, unless they were just gawking, that would be understandable. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/0...n-island-park/

  25. #1905
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    We lost more to another Alaskan midair.

    News on KTUU. Name sounds very familiar. I’m sure he’s known. My condolences.


    Attachment 50821
    Preliminary Report 9/24/20 for Chena Marina AK fatal accident: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=LA

    Gary

  26. #1906
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Its probably not a large contributing factor, but how could the 185 be operating under FAR 43 Part 135 with no transponder? See regs 135.143 (c). Not only is it required to be installed, its required to be in currency and operating.

    Voice transcripts sounds very unconcerned, "ya I'm right over him", when given the Cub traffic taking off. Just a bad deal, sounds avoidable if he had the traffic in sight. Condolences for those perished and hurt.
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  27. #1907
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    See Note 1: Link Aircraft was in Class D airspace.

    Gary
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  28. #1908
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Oops, darn it...

    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    See Note 1: Link Aircraft was in Class D airspace.

    Gary
    Thanks Gary but that guidance is 9 years old, and if I read it right it is basically guidance about older equipment (non Mode S) transponders that was installed prior to the reg change. Mode C transponders were required prior to the new reg and would be allowed to continue to operate. Any new installation of transponder after 1992 was required to be compliant with Mode-S.

    My point is at least a Mode-C transponder was required to be installed and operating if Part 135, even if the aircraft had grandfather waiver explained in the 1991 guidance. It’s just a good idea anyway in the FAI TRSA. I flew out of Chena Marina for a summer season, I know how busy it gets getting in and out of there.


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  29. #1909
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Is a transponder required for Part 135 while in compliance with 14 CFR 91.215?

    Gary

  30. #1910
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Is a transponder required for Part 135 while in compliance with 14 CFR 91.215?

    Gary
    If operating under a Part 135 revenue flight, that the NTSB report said was the case, the equipment requirements of Part 135 and in the operators Part 135 Ops-Specs would apply.


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  31. #1911
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter7779h View Post
    If operating under a Part 135 revenue flight, that the NTSB report said was the case, the equipment requirements of Part 135 and in the operators Part 135 Ops-Specs would apply.
    Was that a yes, no, or maybe?

    Gary

  32. #1912
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Was that a yes, no, or maybe?

    Gary
    Needs a transponder.

    §135.143***General requirements.
    (a) No person may operate an aircraft under this part unless that aircraft and its equipment meet
    the applicable regulations of this chapter.
    (b) Except as provided in §135.179, no person may operate an aircraft under this part unless
    the required instruments and equipment in it have been approved and are in an operable condi-
    tion.
    (c) ATC transponder equipment installed within the time periods indicated below must meet the
    performance and environmental requirements of the following TSO’s:
    (1) Through January 1, 1992: (i) Any class of TSO-C74b or any class of TSO-C74c as appropri-
    ate, provided that the equipment was manufactured before January 1, 1990; or
    (ii) The appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).
    (2) After January 1, 1992: The appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S). For purposes of para-
    graph (c)(2) of this section, “installation” does not include—
    (i) Temporary installation of TSO-C74b or TSO-C74c substitute equipment, as appropriate, during
    maintenance of the permanent equipment;
    (ii) Reinstallation of equipment after temporary removal for maintenance; or
    (iii) For fleet operations, installation of equipment in a fleet aircraft after removal of the equipment
    for maintenance from another aircraft in the same operator’s fleet.
    [Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783, Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135-22, 52 FR 3392, Feb.


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  33. #1913
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Let's make this simple as I'm trying to learn something. I'm still reading Part 135 looking for "shall" and not "if" ref: required installation of a transponder as inferred by 135.143(c). If in compliance with 14 CFR 91.215 please point me to it so I can learn and we can move on.

    Gary

  34. #1914
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Let's make this simple as I'm trying to learn something. I'm still reading Part 135 looking for "shall" and not "if" ref: required installation of a transponder as inferred by 135.143(c). If in compliance with 14 CFR 91.215 please point me to it so I can learn and we can move on.

    Gary
    No problem, we’re kinda rabbit trailing this thread. Here is the preceding section.

    Subpart C—Aircraft and Equipment
    §135.141***Applicability.
    This subpart prescribes aircraft and equipment requirements for operations under this part. The
    requirements of this subpart are in addition to the aircraft and equipment requirements of part 91
    of this chapter. However, this part does not require the duplication of any equipment required by
    this chapter.
    §135.143***General requirements.


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  35. #1915
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I'm going to guess for this C-185 Part 135 in the accident that while VFR in the airspace noted a transponder was not required equipment. But if one is installed it has to meet certain specs. Best I can come up with until I talk with a FSDO Inspector that worked this particular 135 ops specs. Just a friendly question that seems confusing to me.

    Gary

  36. #1916
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter7779h View Post
    ..Voice transcripts sounds very unconcerned, "ya I'm right over him", when given the Cub traffic taking off. Just a bad deal, sounds avoidable if he had the traffic in sight. Condolences for those perished and hurt.
    When another pilot says he has you in sight NEVER BELIEVE HIM!
    I can relate a very EXTREMELY scary story in which I was told the other pilot had me in sight and was following me. I'll not bore you with the details other than I was shaking for hours afterwards. Let's just say It did not make the evening news in LAX nor nationwide and I am here to tell you.

    I can also tell you another story when the tower kept insisting I report the plane in front of me in sight when I could not find him. I had to go around rather than take a visual approach. Good high cloud VFR on a gray day at DFW. That one was not scary, because I refused to say yes when the answer was no.

    ps: I still shake when I think back about that incident at LAX. It was about 30 years ago.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 09-25-2020 at 05:18 AM.
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  37. #1917

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    https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../InFO11018.pdf

    See note 1 on page 2, transponder not required for 135 operations.

  38. #1918
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../InFO11018.pdf

    See note 1 on page 2, transponder not required for 135 operations.
    Reply from local FSDO concurs. "- xponder not required unless in A,B,C, >10k, or 30mi from designated airports (TCA)...."

    Re the accident: It will take a full NTSB release of transcripts to help reveal the event if ever.

    Gary

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  40. #1920
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Booze and flying: http://www.airspacedoc.com/alcohol-t...t-and-the-faa/

    Really stupid behavior for both driving and flying.

    Gary
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