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Oops, darn it...

Never did amphib just wheel skis. Do they pump both ways? Can they fall without intentional activation? Maybe there's more to learn here.

Gary
 
Never did amphib just wheel skis. Do they pump both ways? Can they fall without intentional activation? Maybe there's more to learn here.

Gary
Gary, The gear is hydraulically powered in both directions. It appears in the photo that all four are down and locked. If it was possible for a failure to drop a gear, it would be extremely unlikely that all four would end up in this position. One or maybe two in one float is possible, but not all four. With this type of nose gear it takes hydraulic power for the nose gear to extend out of the float in order to fall towards the down position and complete power to get them to the locked position.
 
Gary, The gear is hydraulically powered in both directions. It appears in the photo that all four are down and locked. If it was possible for a failure to drop a gear, it would be extremely unlikely that all four would end up in this position. One or maybe two in one float is possible, but not all four. With this type of nose gear it takes hydraulic power for the nose gear to extend out of the float in order to fall towards the down position and complete power to get them to the locked position.

and if you think about it..... you decelerate instantly & unexpectantly, it lurches you forward, holding onto... #1 the wheel/elevator control - pitching nose down, #2 throttle - shoving it in to high power....

????
 
and if you think about it..... you decelerate instantly & unexpectantly, it lurches you forward, holding onto... #1 the wheel/elevator control - pitching nose down, #2 throttle - shoving it in to high power....

????
mike, You will find that at landing speeds with that sudden large amount of water drag the position of the elevators will have no effect at all. Just landing too nose low without any landing gear being involved, it takes all of the up elevator to hold up the nose all the while the pilot wishing he had more. The water drag is way more powerful than the small amount of air flowing over the elevators at less than stall airspeed.

As for the power, even if the throttle were pushed wide open I doubt that the engine would react in that small amount of time for it to have any effect.

I used to have a friend who had his own machine shop and employed one person just to rebuild and make airplane parts. He even made his own rivets for a Scan Widgeon that he was working on when he went west. He rebuilt a nice Beaver. Then he designed and built his own set of floats for it which were a bit bigger than EDO's Beaver floats. They were a nice set of floats which he never did get approved though that was his intent. He got the bright idea that if he could make a set of fixed position landing gear which didn't hang as far below the floats as a normal amphib gear does that he could save the retraction mechanism complexity and weight. He mounted a small deflector ahead of the main gear to act as a sort of ski. He was advised not to land it in the water by several people. But he did anyway. It almost instantaneously went up on it's nose and stopped with the tail straight up and the engine resting on the shallow bottom.
 
I presume this all took place in the West, South-West portion of Massachusetts? :wink:
 
There was a man who had a hangar full of Seabees at his home on South Pond (?) southwest of Springfield. Is it he who you are thinking of?
I had not thought about Southwick, 5MA8 I was thinking of out at GBR.
I landed on South pond once, but that was in the C150 on ice.
We also had a half dozen Seabees at Simsbury (4b9) in the late '60s when I started there.
 
mike, You will find that at landing speeds with that sudden large amount of water drag the position of the elevators will have no effect at all. Just landing too nose low without any landing gear being involved, it takes all of the up elevator to hold up the nose all the while the pilot wishing he had more. The water drag is way more powerful than the small amount of air flowing over the elevators at less than stall airspeed.

As for the power, even if the throttle were pushed wide open I doubt that the engine would react in that small amount of time for it to have any effect.

I used to have a friend who had his own machine shop and employed one person just to rebuild and make airplane parts. He even made his own rivets for a Scan Widgeon that he was working on when he went west. He rebuilt a nice Beaver. Then he designed and built his own set of floats for it which were a bit bigger than EDO's Beaver floats. They were a nice set of floats which he never did get approved though that was his intent. He got the bright idea that if he could make a set of fixed position landing gear which didn't hang as far below the floats as a normal amphib gear does that he could save the retraction mechanism complexity and weight. He mounted a small deflector ahead of the main gear to act as a sort of ski. He was advised not to land it in the water by several people. But he did anyway. It almost instantaneously went up on it's nose and stopped with the tail straight up and the engine resting on the shallow bottom.

Jerry Lawhorn was our Chief of Maintenance for many years, at Lake Hood. He told me a story once about one of our amphib Beavers landing in LHD gear down. Jerry said it was late in the evening in a summer day, and he’d just finished up paperwork and was locking up the shop, heading home, when he saw one of our Beavers about to touch down on the West channel, with gear down on Bristol Aero 4580s.

Nothing he could do but watch. He said the pilot had the plane nicely slowed down, nose pitched level with power, dragging it in. Plane touched, and immediately went up almost on its nose, hung there for a moment, then splashed down onto its floats.

I asked Jerry what he did next. He said “I got in my car and went home”. He said he never mentioned it to the pilot, and never told me who the pilot was, but that I knew him. Jerry said he figured the guy had a vivid learning experience, and really didn’t need any piling on. Jerry did say he and his maintenance crew took a REALLY good look at that plane the next day, though.

MTV
 
Jerry Lawhorn was our Chief of Maintenance for many years, at Lake Hood. He told me a story once about one of our amphib Beavers landing in LHD gear down. Jerry said it was late in the evening in a summer day, and he’d just finished up paperwork and was locking up the shop, heading home, when he saw one of our Beavers about to touch down on the West channel, with gear down on Bristol Aero 4580s.

Nothing he could do but watch. He said the pilot had the plane nicely slowed down, nose pitched level with power, dragging it in. Plane touched, and immediately went up almost on its nose, hung there for a moment, then splashed down onto its floats.

I asked Jerry what he did next. He said “I got in my car and went home”. He said he never mentioned it to the pilot, and never told me who the pilot was, but that I knew him. Jerry said he figured the guy had a vivid learning experience, and really didn’t need any piling on. Jerry did say he and his maintenance crew took a REALLY good look at that plane the next day, though.

MTV
Talk about shock cooling.
 
Talk about shock cooling.

Jerry said that the very tip of the spinner appeared to just touch the water, but the engine didn't. He said that most likely the wettest thing in that airplane was the pilot's pants.

MTV
 
In the world of strange fuel contamination ..DEF fluid gets into Jet A.


On May 9, two Cessna Citation 550s operated by air-ambulance operator Air Trek lost power—in both jets’ engines—due to fuel contamination by diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). The pilots were able to land safely.

The jets were both fueled by the FBO at Punta Gorda Airport in Florida, which is operated by Charlotte Country Airport Authority. According to a spokeswoman for the airport authority, “The incident was isolated to the operations of one fuel truck, but the fuel itself on the truck had not been (and is not) contaminated. However, the icing-inhibitor injective additive appears to have been cross-contaminated with DEF.”

According to information from AOPA, which was confirmed by the airport authority spokeswoman, one of the Air Trek Citations was flying to Niagara Falls, New York, and landed safely in Savannah, Georgia after the failure of both engines. On its way to Chicago, the other Citation “experienced an engine failure, and landed safely in Louisville, Kentucky,” AOPA said.

DEF is required in certain diesel-engine-powered vehicles, typically those built after 2010, including airport fuel trucks. The fluid is indistinguishable from the typical icing-inhibitor fluid—usually Prist—that turbine engines without fuel preheaters require to prevent fuel icing at high altitudes. DEF is a urea-based solution that lowers nitrogen oxide pollutants in diesel exhaust and is not approved for use in jet fuel. When the two are accidentally mixed, crystals form, causing potentially catastrophic clogs throughout aircraft fuel systems.

Last year, a Falcon 900EX operated by Fair Wind Air Charter suffered failure of two of its three engines after departure from Miami Opa-Locka Airport. Luckily the pilots were able to land back at the airport using the remaining engine.

Fair Wind COO and equity owner Alex Beringer said that the NBAA DEF task force, of which he is a member, was notified of the Punta Gorda event. “The accidental mixing of DEF into the Prist tank is likely what occurred,” he told AIN. “DEF is a risk and remains a risk as long as these fluids remain on airport property.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
After all those hours and years for both then this in an old but new to them airplane that ran that far. What?

Gary
 
They had just refueled and then they crashed after taking off in the Robert Service campground which is within the airport traffic pattern? Fuel valve off???
I looked at the map view of the airport. Where is the DC-3 on the pole windsock? Did someone place it back into service?
 
Dc3- is still there . She is next to the hyway tourist attraction. I was just thru Whitehorse 3 weeks ago in my new 170B. My thoughts are the same either fuel or catastrophic engine failure.
Thoughts n prayers to the families and friends. 2 very experienced great guys.
 
Thanks, found it next to the Yukon Transportation Museum.

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Talk about a real loss.

Two men from Palmer and Wasilla died after their plane crashed shortly after takeoff Monday evening in Whitehorse, according to Yukon officials.

Charles Eric Benson, 56 of Palmer, and Jeffrey Brian Babcock, 58 of Wasilla, were in a recently purchased 1952 Cessna 170 and were en route from Minnesota — where they bought the plane — on a multi-day trip back to Palmer, according to Yukon chief coroner Heather Jones.
“The wreckage was located approximately 600 meters off the end of the runway 14 in a treed area," Jones said in a prepared statement. "Both occupants were confirmed deceased at the scene.”
 
My first thought looking at picture 1, the speed looks OK, but then I note allot of right rudder with more weight on the left float. Sure wish the were more pictures.
Sad to see the results.
 
"when the pilot started company orientation on April 22, he had a total of 1,606 flight hours, of which 5 hours were in float-equipped airplanes. "

Is this normal procedure for hiring new pilots to fly Beavers on floats commercially in Alaska? Do you suppose that the paying passengers realize how little experience their pilot has?
 
I saw that as well, 5 hours, how many of those in a Beaver? Probably just in some variant of a Cessna.
Kind of a frightening hiring policy.
I sure hope there are serious questions about the company management not just in Alaska but down in Nevada as well.
 
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