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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #1001
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA-22/20-160 View Post
    I hear a favorite plane of mine that went your way last spring went “over easy”
    Yep, this is happening all to often. We have a lot of fun and others see that and want to participate but don't realize the time and effort spent learning to fly in the environment we fly in. I have bent stuff doing stupid things and payed the price but also learned from it. Hope to spare others the expensive lessons.
    Steve Pierce

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  2. #1002
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    Just WOW.

    I am actually shocked and ashamed at this group. You all have administered what the problem was, who is to blame, and what should be done to solve it without even having all of the information.

    Who here has seen the training records? Anyone? Anyone?

    Are you all sure that there was not some mechanical? Anyone?

    How many of you know the guy's history in boats? Flown with him? (One actually knew him so I bow to your knowledge).

    Yes Mike, an ampig beaver is very nose heavy, but this was a strait float beaver. How many 135 training sessions and checkrides have you attended in the last 5 years? 10 years? How much IOE have you taken or administered? Would a 135 company training and check ride, then IOE be considered a 'good checkout'? How many hours did he get in training?

    Yes, there is a pilot shortage. No, the people up here can not afford to pay $15,000/month to have a guy fly a taxi cab from easy places to easy places. Yes, there are a thousand things to look for when landing floats, but just as much on wheels. This was not a punch bowl confined space with no option mission. This is a MEAT BALL run used to get pilots to build time to prepare them for doing difficult places.

    Plenty of guys coming from cub world get their face slapped, and for years the Beaver has been the training plane, with training syllabus to include the two or three 'gotcha' points on that aircraft.

    In a not so nice way, let me offer this: Shut the heck up! We don't have enough information, and are furthering a headline from a news story that is only part of the picture. Hours hired with was a flashy headline, but nowhere have they discussed training hours.

    I am out
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  3. #1003
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Just WOW.
    . This was not a punch bowl confined space with no option mission. This is a MEAT BALL run used to get pilots to build time
    Which is precisely the point we’ve been making, George. This should not have been a difficult task. The outcome begs the question: Was he properly prepared? And, by the way, the pilot is not to blame in my opinion. In this case, his employer MAY have set him up to fail, and two people lost their lives.

    A tragedy any way you cut it.

    MTV
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  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Which is precisely the point we’ve been making, George. This should not have been a difficult task. The outcome begs the question: Was he properly prepared? And, by the way, the pilot is not to blame in my opinion. In this case, his employer MAY have set him up to fail, and two people lost their lives.

    A tragedy any way you cut it.

    MTV
    I think his point is ,nobody knows what’s going on so all of this postulating the could’ve ,should’ve, would’ve ,does nothing but give ammunition to the uneducated at large. We are our own worst enemy when things like this happen. Every keyboard expert has an opinion and feels that everybody is entitled to it!
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  5. #1005

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    My guess is with the facts on experience on floats that has been published, assuming it is accurate, there will be legal action against the operator for negligence on this one. Of course my speculation, but if company training not followed with proper hours in type, floats, etc. there may be tremendous negligence/liability.
    Sad whatever the outcome, but most facts outlined so far do not bode well for proper training for that pilot to be carrying passengers.
    Not a keyboard expert, only trying to look at what appears to be the facts put out on this one.
    And the one 185 upside down with amphibs and wheels sticking up is not hard to understand or explain. Sad but obvious.
    John
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  6. #1006
    TVATIVAK71's Avatar
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    That’s the cool thing about social media these days is it’s easy to speculate over a screen than face to face.

    To a previous posters question “How do you get that float experience/time to get a job”.

    1. Be born into a aviation family that has a floatplane.(Flying Mommy and Daddy’s 185 will pay off in spades!)
    2. Buy a floatplane, do it yourself.
    3. Pencil whip it.......lie.
    4. Work for operator that will break you in. Albeit slowly.
    or that will let you jump right in.

    I know the 4 examples are “No Sh#$ Sherlock” examples. Was just thinking aloud, after all I’m at a keyboard in a far away place.

    Ive watched this pilot shortage drive down the required minimums considerably over my career. At my current airline you had to have thousands of twin turboprop PIC over 12,500# and type rating to even be competitive(if not military) in 2001. Now you don’t even need PIC time...........wtf. I would gladly leave my employer to fly floats the rest of my career if any seaplane operator could give me north of $250 an hour, retirement and at least 17 days off a month. Point being these air taxis need to pay pilots wayyyyyy more than the current rates to get and retain experienced pilots. Then again that’s been that way for decades.

    Im not going to rehash what’s already been said. But my speculation is..................exactly that, mine. Until more definitive info becomes available.....this tragedy could have been caused by quite a few things.

    I was lucky enough when I was young to get my first seaplane job at a Southwest Alaska lodge with very low float and total time. Even with low float “time” I still like to think that my growing up hunting/fishing in the area, driving boats in the area, guiding and working for years for that lodge owner in the area counted as “experience”. As a teen I was lucky enough to have said lodge owner let me fly with him and other pilots. I got on the insurance but could only haul cargo till my time increased. The rest is history.
    I reiterate I was lucky to have been exposed to aviation at an early age and bust my ass to get noticed by a few operators who took a chance on a young low time pilot. Over 20,000 hrs later at 48 yrs young I am still very much learning. Though apparently not as sharp as a 19 yr old.
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  7. #1007
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    For me this format is a conversation not a conviction. We pilots discuss these things and share experiences...some as an ongoing flight review and some to maybe learn from others without the sad consequences. The final NTSB report might offer resolution, but often that's not clear and the unresolved remains. Take away what's important to you and use it.

    Gary
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  8. #1008
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    Thank you all for listening to my rant. The comments today are very good to read.

    One other thought I had that I want to point out: the US military often hires folks with zero hours and trains them to fly F-16s, FA-18s and C-130s...

    Not about hours hired, about training. Maybe that is where we could help with safety, training. Now if we could just get the flight tests to include true MCA and spins...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  9. #1009
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    George,
    Those folks have a lot more than zero hours by the time they climb in those F-16s etc.

    How do you account for being hired with 5 hours of SES when this is the posted requirement? "500 hours single engine sea preferred" https://taquanair.com/careers/
    Does this mean that 500 hours is preferred but 5 will do?
    N1PA
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  10. #1010
    Chicken Hawk's Avatar
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    One other thought I had that I want to point out: the US military often hires folks with zero hours and trains them to fly F-16s, FA-18s and C-130s...

    Wrong......way wrong.



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  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    George,
    Those folks have a lot more than zero hours by the time they climb in those F-16s etc.

    How do you account for being hired with 5 hours of SES when this is the posted requirement? "500 hours single engine sea preferred" https://taquanair.com/careers/
    Does this mean that 500 hours is preferred but 5 will do?
    Pete,
    After reading this post a few times, and trying to see Georges point of view. This whole thing doesnt add up Something is wrong here......nobody puts a 5hr float time pilot in the left seat of a Beaver and cuts them loose. I cant imagine you could get him insured. Even If they pencil whiped his logbook there is no way you could ask him to fly passenger's and feel confident that he
    would be able pull it off without problems. This outfit is going to have an awful lot of explaining to do to get this behind them. This is again not so different than last years Beaver accident on McKinley, same format basically:
    No time in type. No Alaska time. Way in over their experence levels..........
    Darn shame in both cases, good hard working lads trying to live their dream.
    Both had the deck stacked against them, before the R985 ever fired.


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  12. #1012
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Air Force hired me with zero time. With 75 hours total I was flying a supersonic T-38 solo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken Hawk View Post
    One other thought I had that I want to point out: the US military often hires folks with zero hours and trains them to fly F-16s, FA-18s and C-130s...

    Wrong......way wrong.



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  13. #1013
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Air Force hired me with zero time. With 75 hours total I was flying a supersonic T-38 solo.
    Ah, yes, but who really was concerned about the outcome?

    I mean, there was at least ten behind you, right? And a T-38 isn’t going to make a very large hole, right?

    MTV
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  14. #1014
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    George,
    Those folks have a lot more than zero hours by the time they climb in those F-16s etc.

    How do you account for being hired with 5 hours of SES when this is the posted requirement? "500 hours single engine sea preferred" https://taquanair.com/careers/
    Does this mean that 500 hours is preferred but 5 will do?
    I have friends that got hired with no float rating, did the rating on a weekend, and one day the boss needed pilots and said 'YOU'. They got trained, learned, checked out.

    Notice preferred? You are seeing the sign of the times. Most of the guys my age with experience that got the ATP on a lark have moved to bigger better things. Anyone with any time and ability can go to work for really good wages right now flying turbine. Medivac companies are looking, airlines are looking. ATP, pulse and semi clean clothing seems to get you in some of the freight companies flying 747. Only people left are crazies like me, or those that don't want to work all year around.

    I agree, military guys get time built up in training- so do 135 pilots. I would like to know how many training hours he logged.

    The one difference between the McKinley crash and this- this was not a difficult destination.

    Consider this- that pilot had enough time to be a captain on any of the jets flying around full of passengers. Think about that next time you board on a cattle car cheap jet; not all airlines hire high time cool guys like Bill, Capt. Cub and others on this site.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  15. #1015
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    I have friends that got hired with no float rating, did the rating on a weekend, and one day the boss needed pilots and said 'YOU'. They got trained, learned, checked out.

    Notice preferred? You are seeing the sign of the times. Most of the guys my age with experience that got the ATP on a lark have moved to bigger better things. Anyone with any time and ability can go to work for really good wages right now flying turbine. Medivac companies are looking, airlines are looking. ATP, pulse and semi clean clothing seems to get you in some of the freight companies flying 747. Only people left are crazies like me, or those that don't want to work all year around.

    I agree, military guys get time built up in training- so do 135 pilots. I would like to know how many training hours he logged.

    The one difference between the McKinley crash and this- this was not a difficult destination.

    Consider this- that pilot had enough time to be a captain on any of the jets flying around full of passengers. Think about that next time you board on a cattle car cheap jet; not all airlines hire high time cool guys like Bill, Capt. Cub and others on this site.
    Now, you’re really reaching George. Not even close.

    MTV
    Last edited by mvivion; 06-03-2019 at 09:59 PM.

  16. #1016
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    Looking like LAB Flying Service has set up shop in Ketchikan.
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  17. #1017
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Almost all of this makes sense, but another aspect is that highly experienced and highly skilled folks mess up too. Sometimes big-time. Another piece is that the highly experienced could have a greater tendency to complacency than a newbie might. Not as a rule, no doubt, but it certainly does happen. Thinking about Ted Stevens' pilot - - -

    When I climb into an airliner, I want to see some grey in the crew's hair.
    Gordon

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  18. #1018
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Maybe DHC-2 Beavers on floats are prone to flipping. Is there any forum knowledge that suggests that's a unique concern? I was trained to keep the nose-toes-bows up during check rides with various float aircraft and later reinforced with experience.

    Gary

  19. #1019
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Maybe DHC-2 Beavers on floats are prone to flipping. Is there any forum knowledge that suggests that's a unique concern? I was trained to keep the nose-toes-bows up during check rides with various float aircraft and later reinforced with experience.

    Gary
    Gary,

    No, Beavers aren't prone to flipping. On 4930 floats, which I assume that plane was on, they're very nice float planes. I've flown them on 4580s, 4930s and just a bit on the big Wip 6000, and none of them have any ugly water handling characteristics like that. They can get your attention taking off in a strong crosswind, as you come up on the step....but, landing, not that big a deal.

    But, you're right, you have to land the plane such that the toes of the floats don't contact the water first.

    MTV

  20. #1020

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    I have not seen mention here of this one, Might have missed it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt3T...s#action=share

  21. #1021

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    A bit more here, Forum will not allow me to post again,
    kathrynsreport 2019/05/29

  22. #1022

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  23. #1023
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I have not seen mention here of this one, Might have missed it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt3T...s#action=share
    Another check list case. "This is a Water Landing---The gear is Up." What is that voice in my head set? Push gear warning annunciation to silence noise. Where are the mirrors?
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 06-06-2019 at 08:39 AM.
    N1PA
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  24. #1024

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    I liked the mirrors on the Lake I flew, and my instructor impressing the need to call out the landing and look at the mirrors.

  25. #1025
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    "The pilot failed to deploy the pontoons upon landing." That's an interesting way to put it.
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  26. #1026

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbflyer View Post
    Looking like LAB Flying Service has set up shop in Ketchikan.
    Going back 10 or 11 years ago this was in the news,

    The FAA has shut down LAB Flying Service in Juneau, saying the charter and commuter operator has shown a "callous disregard" for safety.
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  27. #1027
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbflyer View Post
    Looking like LAB Flying Service has set up shop in Ketchikan.
    One must remember how many LAB alumni fly for majors even today! It was almost a right of passage for Alaska Airlines for a long time.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  28. #1028

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    One must remember how many LAB alumni fly for majors even today! It was almost a right of passage for Alaska Airlines for a long time.
    That is all fine but the problems within these companies is the management, not the pilots.
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  29. #1029
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    That is all fine but the problems within these companies is the management, not the pilots.
    I'm currently reading this book - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...my-dead-pilots - but have asked and been informed by someone who was there that it's prone to fiction. Some level of truth and whatever. I'm half way through and have no opinion about the authenticity.

    Gary

  30. #1030

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  31. #1031
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Stolen from Facebook. Original post disappeared.


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  32. #1032

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    I see in the FAA accident report today a Maule in Soldotna, description says attempted to land on water, without floats!! Assume this maybe was a photo op to waterski on wheels?
    With not good outcome?
    John

  33. #1033
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Maybe a water-impeded landing instead of a water-assisted landing?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  34. #1034
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 11-JUN-19
    Time: 19:15:00Z
    Regis#: N61339
    Aircraft Make: MAULE
    Aircraft Model: MX7
    Event Type: INCIDENT
    Highest Injury: NONE
    Aircraft Missing: No
    Damage: UNKNOWN
    LOCATION
    City: SOLDOTNA
    State: ALASKA
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ATTEMPTED WATER LANDING WITHOUT FLOATS, SOLDOTNA, AK.
    INJURY DATA
    Total Fatal: 0

  35. #1035

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    The maule was headed to get his floats put on the aircraft. Pilot said he forgot he was on wheels.
    I have done some really bonehead stuff. But omg time to start the summer Darwin awards wall of shame.
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  36. #1036
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Happens. It'll be a Full Moon in a couple of days and waterskiing is fun.

    Gary

  37. #1037
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskflyer View Post
    The maule was headed to get his floats put on the aircraft. Pilot said he forgot he was on wheels.
    I have done some really bonehead stuff. But omg time to start the summer Darwin awards wall of shame.
    we had one of our pilots almost try that.... the guy in the tower saved him when he said he was landing on the river at king salmon.... "well this ought to be good..." he forgot the plane wasn't on floats anymore.....

  38. #1038

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    Anyone know why there is a 185 on floats on the gravel at Campbell Airstrip ? Looks like they sat it down without too much damage to the Wipline floats. Gouges in the gravel.........
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  39. #1039
    TVATIVAK71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    we had one of our pilots almost try that.... the guy in the tower saved him when he said he was landing on the river at king salmon.... "well this ought to be good..." he forgot the plane wasn't on floats anymore.....
    I know of a certain brand new Navajo pilot that did his first no sh$t instrument approach into Dillingham one winter and was in the flare with the stall horn blaring..........state plow operator off the side of the runway yelled “landing gear!” Guess that stall horn was a gear horn. Went around and landed uneventfully.
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  40. #1040
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StalledOut View Post
    Anyone know why there is a 185 on floats on the gravel at Campbell Airstrip ? Looks like they sat it down without too much damage to the Wipline floats. Gouges in the gravel.........
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    https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=1...DATE:13-JUN-19



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