Oops, darn it...

[Alex Clark]

ANCHORAGE, Alaska — A final report by the National Transportation Safety Board concludes an Australian pilot likely became spatially disoriented in poor weather before crashing near Fairbanks last year.

The NTSB says in the probable cause report it's likely the pilot lost control of the rented Piper Saratoga and "entered a steep spiraling dive from which he was unable to recover."

The 64-year-old pilot, Stephen Knight, of Queensland, Australia, and his 60-year-old wife, Gillian Knight, died July 18, 2012, about 43 miles north of Fairbanks. The couple was part of a group of three sightseeing planes.

The NTSB says the pilot began the trip using visual flight rules, later asking for instrument clearance despite not being rated for instrument flying. KTUU on Thursday first reported the findings of the Dec. 5 report.

[Alex Clark]

THE OLD PLANE GONE WILD DURING HAND_PROP ROUTINE

IDENTIFICATION
Date: 29-DEC-13
Time: 23:00:00Z
Regis#: N6795E
Aircraft Make: CESSNA
Aircraft Model: 175
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: RICHMOND
State: Virginia
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT DURING HAND-PROP, STRUCK A HANGAR AND A PARKED AIRCRAFT, RICHMOND EXECUTIVE-CHESTERFIELD COUNTY AIRPORT, RICHMOND, VA

[Alex Clark]

DENTIFICATION
Date: 30-DEC-13
Time: 20:30:00Z
Regis#: N924JS
Aircraft Make:
Aircraft Model:
Event Type: Accident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: RED LODGE
State: Montana
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT, CUBCRAFTERS CC11-160 LIGHT SPORT, ON TAXI STRUCK A SNOWBANK AND FLIPPED OVER, NEAR RED LODGE CREEK, COONEY RESERVOIR, MT

[Scooter7779h]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/04...f-calif-coast/

Sent from my SCH-R530X using Tapatalk

[Bill Rusk]

Wow

Hope they are OK. Dave often writes articles for Sport Aviation, Kit Planes etc, those of you at my little talk at Oshkosh last year may remember him. He was there, participated, answered several questions and is a super helpful guy.
Bummer.

Bill

[Dave Calkins]

Oh..that just sucks!

I hope you guys are doing okay DaveP..

[Alex Clark]

http://www.adn.com/2014/01/07/326244...-lands-on.html

Emergency landing: Plane was on maintenance flight when it lost power


The pilot of a small airplane made a successful emergency landing in the middle of an East Anchorage street, and neither he nor two passengers were injured, police and fire officials said.

The red-and-white Cessna 172RG Cutlass landed in a snowy median, without hitting any vehicles, on Boniface Parkway near Perry Drive a little after 1 p.m. After the landing, the pilot and passengers stepped out, and the single-engine plane could be seen resting on the median as cars and trucks drove past on each side.

The two lanes of traffic closest to the plane on the four-lane street were soon closed. Later, all northbound traffic was diverted around the plane for about two hours.

Police Lt. Mark Thelen said the pilot reported losing power after taking off from Merrill Field. ........

FOR MORE SEE THE LINK

[Alex Clark]

http://www.adn.com/2014/01/07/326244...-lands-on.html

Emergency landing: Plane was on maintenance flight when it lost power


The pilot of a small airplane made a successful emergency landing in the middle of an East Anchorage street, and neither he nor two passengers were injured, police and fire officials said.

The red-and-white Cessna 172RG Cutlass landed in a snowy median, without hitting any vehicles, on Boniface Parkway near Perry Drive a little after 1 p.m. After the landing, the pilot and passengers stepped out, and the single-engine plane could be seen resting on the median as cars and trucks drove past on each side.

The two lanes of traffic closest to the plane on the four-lane street were soon closed. Later, all northbound traffic was diverted around the plane for about two hours.

Police Lt. Mark Thelen said the pilot reported losing power after taking off from Merrill Field. ........

FOR MORE SEE THE LINK

[Cub Builder]

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...08X45633&key=1

We had an A-1C-200 Husky crash on take off out of LAM last month. Likely took off with wing contamination (frost/ice) under gusty wind conditions, made a mid field turn out at low altitude into a restricted area to avoid overflying the residential area west of the airport, then tightened the turn when he found a windshield full of water towers or discovered that he had entered restricted air space. He stalled and crashed into the canyon 400 yds south of the runway. Intense fire with pilot and passenger both dead.

-CubBuilder

[mvivion]

http://www.adn.com/2014/01/07/326244...-lands-on.html

Emergency landing: Plane was on maintenance flight when it lost power


The pilot of a small airplane made a successful emergency landing in the middle of an East Anchorage street, and neither he nor two passengers were injured, police and fire officials said.

The red-and-white Cessna 172RG Cutlass landed in a snowy median, without hitting any vehicles, on Boniface Parkway near Perry Drive a little after 1 p.m. After the landing, the pilot and passengers stepped out, and the single-engine plane could be seen resting on the median as cars and trucks drove past on each side.

The two lanes of traffic closest to the plane on the four-lane street were soon closed. Later, all northbound traffic was diverted around the plane for about two hours.

Police Lt. Mark Thelen said the pilot reported losing power after taking off from Merrill Field. ........

FOR MORE SEE THE LINK

The pilot was doing a maintenance flight with pax aboard??

MTV

[mike mcs repair]

The pilot was doing a maintenance flight with pax aboard??

MTV

seems most of the time anyone takes me flying is when things aren't working well...

ya that part about maintenance flight sounds fishy....

It's just a systems check. Basically you go up and check the systems on the airplane," Kinney said. "Regardless of whether they've had work or not, we just routinely fly them to make sure all the bells and whistles are working

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2014/01/07/326244...#storylink=cpy

just read and article again, bet they were hunting a gremlin... like a sticky intake valve..... or finally broke it off....

...no mister insurance man, we would not fly a plane with a gremlin.....

[mvivion]

Mike,

I can understand taking a mechanic along....but the comment was plural "passengers"? Maybe just a misprint.

MTV

[mike mcs repair]

Mike,

I can understand taking a mechanic along....but the comment was plural "passengers"? Maybe just a misprint.

MTV

I think it was 2 pilots/instructors and a mechanic, all employees... think thats what i read...

[mvivion]

I think it was 2 pilots/instructors and a mechanic, all employees... think thats what i read...

Man, I never met a mechanic that was willing to fly with TWO pilots at the same time!

MTV

[Alex Clark]

SUPER CUB BOO_BOOS

IDENTIFICATION
Date: 12-JAN-14
Time: 00:14:00Z
Regis#: N4039E
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA18
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: None
LOCATION
City: CAMARILLO
State: California
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING GROUND LOOPED, CAMARILLO, CA


IDENTIFICATION
Date: 11-JAN-14
Time: 21:45:00Z
Regis#: N838JW
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA18
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: BORREGO SPRINGS
State: California
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON TAXI STRUCK AN UNOCCUPIED STATIONARY AIRCRAFT, BORREGO SPRINGS, CA

AND A SEAPLANE ACCIDENT IN JANUARY

IDENTIFICATION
Date: 10-JAN-14
Time: 22:10:00Z
Regis#: N6136T
Aircraft Make: MAULE
Aircraft Model: M7
Event Type: Accident
Highest Injury: Minor
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: LAKE HAVASU CITY
State: Nevada
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING ON A LAKE, FLIPPED OVER, LAKE HAVASU CITY, AZ

[skywagon8a]

Before landing check list "gear down" Be sure to say OUT LOUD "THIS IS A WATER LANDING THE GEAR IS UP" Then look out the window to confirm. Then again, on short final, check the gear handle with your hand, and look at the lights, and AGAIN say OUT LOUD "THIS IS A WATER LANDING THE GEAR IS UP" If you do not say this out loud, it is very possible that you can miss it completely.The gearwarning systems which are available are a help, but DO NOT depend on them. They can lead you into complacency. This type of accident happens WAY TOOOOO OFTEN!

http://www.havasunews.com/news/plane...a4bcf887a.html

[skywagon8a]

Hey Bill Rusk, That looks like a good set of floats for your Cub.

[Dave Calkins]

....oh no you did NOT SAY that!!

[skywagon8a]

Dave, I did not mean it the way you took it. They look like a set of Baumanns or EDO 2500s, and since the airplane is likely bent, maybe they would sell the floats to Bill for his new Cub.

[irishfield]

I think the best recourse.. is to get rid of all the idiot lights.. the vocal intercom crap.. "check landing gear for water landing" BS and just look out the damn windows. Latest I know of is a Caravan landing gear UP on pavement in NW Ontario.. thank god wasn't gear down at camp landing on the water.

[mvivion]

I think the best recourse.. is to get rid of all the idiot lights.. the vocal intercom crap.. "check landing gear for water landing" BS and just look out the damn windows. Latest I know of is a Caravan landing gear UP on pavement in NW Ontario.. thank god wasn't gear down at camp landing on the water.

Amen!!! Mount a couple of cheap mirrors on the wings, and look out the windows. Oh, and get your head out of your arse..... All these "crutches" aren't helping, and I'm betting that amphib insurance rates are going to skyrocket, if they haven't already.

MTV

[Scooter7779h]

I flew only one year with amphips out of Sheldon Point in the 185. No bells, whistles, lights or voices.. Two mirrors. Simple stuff, what are you landing on, and where are your wheels. 350 and some landings that summer. Don't dumb it down be a PIC.

[irishfield]

My main gear... I can only see the florescent orange from the cockpit when the gear is up... nose wheels are either gone (gear down).. or up in clear sight just by looking out the windows. Yes.. I have to slip my shoulder harness off for 10 seconds to check the passenger side.. as I'm two wide...but a routine that will keep my safe for years to come.

[Aviator]

Amphibious operations by their very nature include two transitions, not just one, between the wolds of air, land and sea. Until someone comes up with a foolproof procedures for amphibious operations, the only way to prevent these mishaps is to cock some sort trigger mechanism to get the pilot to stop, to clear his mind of everything trashing around in there, and to think about what he's transition from and to before doing it.

A bedtime story for amphib fliers.

A young lad who lived near the sea was on his lunch-break watching birds circling his father's freshly plowed field. The sky-critters regularly swooped down and carried off worms. He was awestruck, and decided he wanted to fly, too. He built a flying machine, took to the skies, and even came back down and survived contact with the ground. When he related his achievement to all the disbelievers, he had to quickly think of a word that would best describe his return to Earth. So being a product of a seafaring culture, it seemed natural to adopt the verb “to land” his forefathers used to label the transitioning from their liquid world to the solid. And so the word “land” and “landing” was adopted to label transitioning from the gaseous world to the solid, too.

The new term was perfect. It was well known and used, and conveyed the intended concept well. But then one day he saw an albatross sailing the wind over the seashore, so graceful and detached, searching for that perfect inflight-meal to swoop down on. God's magnificent creature could not only alight on the water but take to the air, too. Once again he felt empty. Something was still missing from his life. He kept scratching his head. How could he do that with his flying machine?

It didn't take him long to figure out that if were to trade-in his wheels for a boat under his airplane, he could do that too. But then he saw his model in nature, the gooney-bird, attempt a landing on the shore, a disastrous feat at best. So he realized that the transition from the air to solid ground for his man-made water-fowl needed some sort of improvement over nature's model. So he decided to put wheels under the boat his airplane sat on, and test flew his invention. Though he didn't know it, proto-amphibious aviation was born.

It didn't take long before he was transitioning not just from the ground to the air and back, but also from the sea to the the air and back by putting on and removing the wheels - the first changeover - from his flying machine . But then one day after he took off from the sea, the wind picked up and the waves were just too high to risk a water “landing.” He had no choice: he had to land on the shore, and gave a performance not unlike his model in nature.

After his hospital recovery, he rebuilt his airplane, but this time he rigged a contraption between the boat and its wheels he could now activate to lower or retract his wheels at will. His ecstasy reached new heights when he realized he could not only take off from the water and land on the shore, but the other way around, too. Moreover, he could even go, albeit slowly, from the beach into the water and also back onto the beach. He called his creation the “amphibious” airplane.

Crowds gathered at events he organized to show-off his invention. Flight after flight, he successfully transitioned between the three realms, solid, gas, liquid, always referring to the transition from the gaseous world as the “landing.” Successfully, that is until his self-contentment flooded his thoughts and he forgot to ask the most basic of operational questions, “what is it that I want to do?” Had he asked that fundamental question, he would have heard the answer “to transition from the air to the water.” But he didn't. Instead, he came up with a new crowd-pleaser when he flipped over in the water with his wheels extended.

He had much time in his cast to meditate on the underlying causes of his mishap. “Was all that effort to rig a multi-realm 'landing' gear wasted?” - he pondered while being stretched a little taller in traction. “And how about a reverse situation: landing on the beach with the wheels retracted?” He had already tried that once and didn't like that either. His meditation paid off. He recalled instructing his students to obey his commands, including implementing his decision to touch down or not after assessing the size of waves. He remembered one foggy day when he was happy with the surface conditions and gave his student the command, “Land!” His student then promptly executed a go-around. When questioned, the student replied, he didn't see any “land” but figured his instructor must have spotted terra-firma in the fog he didn't want to crash into.

And so he concluded that the words “land” and “landing,” retained in his subconscious from his seafaring ancestors' vocabulary and so successful in land-only operations was responsible for his moment of absentmindedness when was ready to “land.” So he decided to put an end to the use of that term and came up with a foolproof one. He coined a new word for transitioning from the air to the water that would unmistakably remind him what what environment he's transitioning to.

Unfortunately, he didn't survive his injuries, so no one knows what that term was. However, by studying other languages, amphibious aviators have been working on phraseology that would trigger the right mindset, a word that would fire at the appropriate time and point to the correct procedure for the planned transition. Maybe someone from supercub.org already has a few ideas...

Without suggesting any, let me point out that in French, to land on water is called “amerrire,” (as opposed to “atterrir” for landing a land) from the root word “mer,” sea (which incidentally but intuitively begins with a letter that looks like waves). Other languages might have even more intuitive words to trigger the right procedure. Either way, the first step ought to be a total break away from the word “land” and all of its forms whenever other than land-only operations are contemplated. Until then, pictures such as the above will, unfortunately, continue to remind us of the need to add two words in big red letters to end of before takeoff and before landing checklists: STOP!... THINK!

Goodnight kids. Dream safely.

[Bill Rusk]

Dave and Pete

Ha, you guys are too funny. I am looking for floats and yes amphibs. I figure I've already done the flip thing once so perhaps I'll be a little more sensitive to the whole "where is the gear for this landing?" concept. That was the first thing the NTSB guy asked.
"Where was your gear"?
When I told him the gear was in the hangar there was a long pregnant pause then he came back with a rather incredulous voice and said, "You mean you flipped one on straight floats"?
At a very serious time it was kinda a funny moment.

We have done so much in terms of man-machine interface, this is an area that I feel we have dropped the ball. In the sailplane community, the airplanes are taken apart, trailered, and reassembled constantly. Many, many accidents have occurred over the years when controls were hooked up backwards or not at all. They have gone to great lengths to fix this human interface such that the controls are now designed in a manner that makes it impossible to hook them up backwards, or that they connect automatically, or that you can't get this pin in unless you have connected the rudder etc. Simply trying to minimize human error. Humans make mistakes. Period. AKA -the recent SWA and Branson. Doctors amputate the wrong limb, etc. It happens and will continue to happen. I sincerely believe we can design the front gear of a amphib float such that it can be landed gear down and NOT result in a flip. My understanding is that the Clamars are less likely to flip than Wipps, and in fact I have heard that the Clamar test pilot has intentionally landed gear down on water just to demonstrate that. If you look at the front gear design on the two floats you can see the difference. Is it the absolute be all end all? No, but I think it is worthy of design consideration. Unfortunately the float market is so small I doubt we will see much innovation there, unless someone builds a new "no flip" float and the insurance rates are soooo much lower it drives the market. Just food for thought.

Bill

[skywagon8a]

.....I sincerely believe we can design the front gear of a amphib float such that it can be landed gear down and NOT result in a flip. My understanding is that the Clamars are less likely to flip than Wipps, and in fact I have heard that the Clamar test pilot has intentionally landed gear down on water just to demonstrate that. If you look at the front gear design on the two floats you can see the difference. Is it the absolute be all end all? No, but I think it is worthy of design consideration. Unfortunately the float market is so small I doubt we will see much innovation there, unless someone builds a new "no flip" float and the insurance rates are soooo much lower it drives the market. Just food for thought.

Bill

I know a guy who built his own floats for his Beaver. He had the same idea. So, after giving the project a lot of thought, he built a set of fixed landing gear for the floats. As I recall he had a little ski attached to the gear to help. Well he tried it. Once. The beaver went right up on its nose and stayed there. It was a shallow pond, just the right depth that it didn't go over on it's back.

If any one does develop a landing gear that supposedly will not flip a float plane, someone WILL flip it.

[courierguy]

I've been waiting for someone to mention a related subject, no one has so I will: I have Datum retractable wheel skis on my experimental. Though I have landed on frozen grass (on purpose, long story) with zero problems, I have not yet landed on dry concrete or asphalt. Why would I do that? If I forget to cycle the wheels down that's why! My gut feeling is it wouldn't want to pitch over, and I'd have ample time to "make that scraping noise go away" by simply lifting off again. So, no real problem other then a little accelerated wear on the ski bottoms. Anyone land a ski plane wheels up on dry asphalt, is so, what happens?

My gear is electrically controlled, after much thought I labeled the panel switches (one for each side) SKIS and WHEELS. That seemed the most idiot proof, so far so good.

[cubdriver2]

My gear is electrically controlled, after much thought I labeled the panel switches (one for each side) SKIS and WHEELS. That seemed the most idiot proof, so far so good.

I would be an accident waiting to happen on amphibs. And your eyes looking at the gear would seem like the best safety device. But my gear selector would say BOAT for gear up and TRUCK or JEEP for wheels down.

Glenn

[Aviator]

Have landed a C-180 on wet grass with straight (Federal) skis, even taxied - if that helps. It's a nonevent.

[NimpoCub]

I know a guy who built his own floats for his Beaver. He had the same idea. So, after giving the project a lot of thought, he built a set of fixed landing gear for the floats. As I recall he had a little ski attached to the gear to help. Well he tried it. Once. The beaver went right up on its nose and stayed there. It was a shallow pond, just the right depth that it didn't go over on it's back.

If any one does develop a landing gear that supposedly will not flip a float plane, someone WILL flip it.

Yep, it's possible to flip anything, but is also possible to land wheels-down.
A bud is an aero-engineer & built his plane & ampibs from scratch. Here is a copy/paste from last Sep't. BCFA N-letter:
Safe wheels-down amphibs!
**This is an email reply to Stephen Ratzlaff of the Washington Seaplane Pilots Ass’n.**
Mike Hirshfield here. I’m the Membership Chairman of the BC Floatplane Association. I’m also a private pilot with 60 years flying experience. I’ve been an amphib pilot for 19 years.

In response to your invitation to comment on amphib safety flying…on your subject of wheels down water landings of amphibious aircraft.

The certified amphib aircraft are locked in to some form of check. Example.. a checklist, voice recorders, lights, buzzers, mirrors, visual retraction flags.. all help but are not foolproof. The homebuilt aircraft on the other hand, would be free to design safety into their machine, to not flip. I have done this with my aircraft. The solution is an engineering one.

My amphib is a homebuilt, so I could design it so that it would not flip at landing speeds with wheels down on the water. There was no intention of testing this feature but test it I did. Twice. Raven Lake in Pitt Meadows and Schoolhouse Lake in the Cariboo (both within BC). A great lot of spray and a very quick stop was the result. And a pilot that felt very stupid was all that happened on both occasions.

My aircraft is a stretched TriPacer with a designed wing and a systems designed automotive engine. The floats were specifically designed so as the aircraft they carried, at landing speeds with wheels down, would not flip. However, there was much more than designing the floats. The entire aircraft’s centre of gravity, the distance from the fuselage to the floats, extra floatation in the front of the floats, fuel carried in the floats rather than the wings, the length of the fuselage, the design and type of the spray rails, the size of the floats (2500’s), many items contributed to a safe landing amphibious float plane with wheels down.
The two landings I made with wheels down – one was with two people up front and the other was just with the pilot, which would be maximum forward CG.
With passengers in the rear there would be much less likelihood of a flip. The large slotted flaps (designed by Abbott and Doenhoff in the Theory of Wing Sections) contribute greatly to the low landing speeds in the 45 mph range.
Some details of floats that don’t flip.
# 1 – Wheel extension – 5 1/2 inches
# 2 – Compound spray rails
# 3 – Fuel tanks out of the wings and into the floats, located forward of the step
# 4 – Flaps – large slotted flaps with a control lip or fowler-type flaps
# 5 – Float struts – only long enough to give 30 inches prop clearance to the water
# 6 – A lightweight three-blade variable pitch propeller with a minimum diameter of 80 inches
# 7 – A very gentle chine and keel line to give more floatation to the forebody
# 8 – CG (centre of gravity) located ten inches forward of the step. CL (centre of lift) – a line drawn 12 degrees forward of the step should cross the centre of lift located at 25% from the front of the wing cord. (Angle of incidence) – minus 2 degrees for the floats, plus 2 degrees for the wings, plus 3 degrees for the wings with poor or no flaps.

Stephen, thank you for this opportunity to comment on your topic of flying safety. I too hope other pilots will have successful wheels down landings on water.

[Alex Clark]

IDENTIFICATION
Date: 18-JAN-14
Time: 17:55:00Z
Regis#: N3668N
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA12
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: ZEPHYRHILLS
State: Florida
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, GEAR COLLAPSED, ZEPHYRHILLS, FL

[Sean007mi5]

Note from the pilot. Yes the left gear took a very hard landing from a recovery of wing high from a quartering tail wing 15 gusting, but all 3 bungees should not have failed. I think the safety cable cut them being incorrectly positioned, not held away properly by the little spring.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!

[Sean007mi5]

Cut or snapped?

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!

[mike mcs repair]

Cut or snapped?

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!

snapped.... did the safety cable pop too?.....

[Sean007mi5]

Yes right in the center.

Sent from my SM-N900P using SuperCub.Org mobile app

[Sean007mi5]

All 3 bungees were seperated at the top exactly the same and same spot where safety cable seperated.

Sent from my SM-N900P using SuperCub.Org mobile app

[Sean007mi5]

Notice scratches. From safey cable???

Sent from my SM-N900P using SuperCub.Org mobile app

[DENNY]

I would agree with mike, note different lengths on outer covering threads if cut they should all be the same length.
DENNY

[Sean007mi5]

Well try cut a bungee streached over a pole that has twisted fiber elastics and see if it comes out perfectly straight.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!

[mike mcs repair]

Yes right in the center

Ya you snapped them then.. You only can do so must stunt driving till ya break things...