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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #1641
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I left the airport Sunday and before I got home got a call there was a ground loop. Got there to see an beautiful FX3 sitting on the left tire under the right shock strut and the left wing folded about 45 degrees. Felt bad for the guy. Had 6 accidents at the same spot where the trees stop and a hill starts right across from my hangar.
    Last edited by Steve Pierce; 05-05-2020 at 06:43 PM.
    Steve Pierce

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  2. #1642

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    Quote Originally Posted by colorguns View Post
    c172 that had a departure stall
    Attachment 48587
    ouch
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  3. #1643
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    .... Had 6 accidents at the same spot where the trees stop and a hill starts right across from my hangar.
    I read about a cub incident in Bowie recently too. Sadly I now know lots about the wind “where the trees stop and hill starts”...


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...

  4. #1644
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I read about a cub incident in Bowie recently too. Sadly I now know lots about the wind “where the trees stop and hill starts”...


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
    I did the annual on that airplane back in December
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  5. #1645
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I read about a cub incident in Bowie recently too. Sadly I now know lots about the wind “where the trees stop and hill starts”...


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
    I really loved that "feature" at the Crookston airport. The grass runway is behind a shelterbelt for about half it's length. Get someone in the Cub who is starting to think they've got it and take them in there on a day with a good crosswind. A humbling experience, as intended.

    MTV

  6. #1646
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    This was the 6th accident that I know of in this particular place on our airport. There is a break in the trees and an upsloping hill that funnels the winds. I have asked the airport to install a windsock there. At least it will tell people there could be issues at least that is what I think when I see multiple wind socks at an airport.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  7. #1647
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    Last edited by Willie; 05-08-2020 at 12:02 PM.

  8. #1648
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Well, that headline is better than the first one I saw: "Southwest Flight Kills a Man at Airport."

  9. #1649
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    Good thing they weren't pressed for space:
    "Southwest Airlines Kills Man"
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  10. #1650

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    E-Yikes!!! At least he didn’t suffer.

  11. #1651

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    This was the 6th accident that I know of in this particular place on our airport. There is a break in the trees and an upsloping hill that funnels the winds. I have asked the airport to install a windsock there. At least it will tell people there could be issues at least that is what I think when I see multiple wind socks at an airport.
    Sounds like a marketing opportunity, just put up a sock with your phone number on it.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  12. #1652
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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  13. #1653
    algonquin's Avatar
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    The new battery’s can be a real problem if they run away/ cook off. We had NiCad battery’s in the Army Helicopters and had one take off on me in a UH1-H , it’s an emergency for real, after taking it off line and landing it was still steaming out of the vent for quite a while. When they blew it took the nose compartment off and usually injured the pilots.
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  14. #1654
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Anybody want to put money on whether the battery was installed/wired correctly?

    Agree that a thermal runaway on a nicad is no joke but remember that these new batteries are not nicads. Things like recharging at a higher rate than manufacturer's limits are self induced problems, not manufacturing or engineering problems.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  15. #1655
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Had a certain Hawker/Powersafe battery STC holder tell me on Friday about internal shorts and thermal runaways with EarthX batteries. He knew of 5 cases and upon questioning said they all had B&C or Plane Power alternator systems properly wired. I would like to see the data.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  16. #1656
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So back in December I posted some pictures of a damaged AOSS that someone sent me and she swore the AOSS failed. Well I found the preliminary report yesterday and that doesn't seem to be what they concurred.
    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

    Interesting metallurgy report from the NTSB materials lab.
    https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63500-63...759/635271.pdf
    Then there are the pictures from which I still conclude as I did the day I got 3 photos of the AOSS that it was failure to maintain directional control by the pilot that caused the accident.
    https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63500-63...759/635272.pdf
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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  17. #1657
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Not buying it. Lithium iron battery with thermal runaway?! I need the real data on that, too. Especially if it smoked on recharge or while drawing power from it? No one questions a lead acid battery in their aircraft but I don't want that smoke or acid fumes inside either. And when a lead acid battery lets out smoke 99.9% it's due to lack of TLC or knowledge of wiring. I know of only two types/brands of batteries that have had meltdown issues. All the rest have been stories of 'a guy' or self induced.

    Web
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  18. #1658
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Years ago there was a Cherokee 140 with the back jump seat in Beverly Mass which had someone in the back seat. The seat sagged under the passenger shorting out the battery terminals. They made a hurried landing.
    N1PA
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  19. #1659
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    That'll make a hole in your wallet.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  20. #1660
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Oops, darn it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So back in December I posted some pictures of a damaged AOSS that someone sent me and she swore the AOSS failed. Well I found the preliminary report yesterday and that doesn't seem to be what they concurred.
    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

    Interesting metallurgy report from the NTSB materials lab.
    https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63500-63...759/635271.pdf
    Then there are the pictures from which I still conclude as I did the day I got 3 photos of the AOSS that it was failure to maintain directional control by the pilot that caused the accident.
    https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63500-63...759/635272.pdf
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    Thanks for the pictures. Definitely NOT AOSS issue there!


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  21. #1661
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Coarse potentially grabby runway surface with tar strips and grooves. Looks like at least 3" gear and 26" tires. Nobody ever looks at the tailwheel for bearing or washer/tension conformity and locking action/spring tension. They can shimmy if not angled right.

    Gary

  22. #1662
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Thanks for the pictures. Definitely NOT AOSS issue there!


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  23. #1663
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    original wimpy gear & cabane?

    never seen a front gear leg tube broke....... that would be my guess at the weld for the break line clamp....

    seen many bent gear legs(rear tube common), but never a broken front one...

  24. #1664
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    Oops, darn it...

    I know that Cub... Friend of mine rebuilt it after folding the gear under it... Stick came out of the torque tube during take off. Pulled off the power and hit on the nose and mains... pictures are on my website/gascolators page... He replaced the fuselage and had it on 31’s for a while with those AOSS shocks on 3 inch Atlee gear... His son took ownership after he passed and flew it for several years before selling to the current owner... too bad it got bent again..

    Brian


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  25. #1665
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    original wimpy gear & cabane?

    never seen a front gear leg tube broke....... that would be my guess at the weld for the break line clamp....

    seen many bent gear legs(rear tube common), but never a broken front one...

    You mean like that?

    Like Steve always said, you can break an anvil if you try hard enough


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  26. #1666
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    But that one broke OFF front tube in the event...... cracked???




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  27. #1667
    txpacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Like Steve always said, you can break an anvil if you try hard enough
    This is how

    https://youtu.be/CHuQy0mqW5I
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  28. #1668
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Hahahaha who would have thought there is a world championship of anvil launching?


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  29. #1669

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    It looked in the brief moment the anvil stuck it's horn into the earth, but did not break.

    Humm, I wounder how much energy it would take to get my 300# anvil that high up.

  30. #1670
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    But that one broke OFF front tube in the event...... cracked???




    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    I'm curious about that too. I've seen welded structure sheared off or just plain torn off, but that missing section looks like it cracked and fell out. Poor welding? Poor heat treat? Flaw in the tube to begin with?

    Web
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  31. #1671
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    When you push something sideways the direction it is not designed to go something gives. Looks like it broke the front tube where the step was clamped on.
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    And ripped the rear fitting out of the fuselage.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  32. #1672

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    Like Brian, I know this Cub, "Blue Bear" well. My girlfriend and I ferried it from West Texas to Maryland back in September for the owner, a personal friend (he is here on SC.ORG as "Bluebear"). Prior to that I flew along side him to STOL competitions and back country strips. The bird was nice and solid. Best handling Piper Super Cub I ever had the privileged to fly. The year model may have been 1954 but the only original parts were the dataplate, some wing parts and maybe the control sticks. It had an all-new Airframes Alaska fuselage, AOSS gear and the 160hp conversion and many upgrades. It had fresh radios and an EFIS. The AOSS was very nice and solid and could take a beating. And Gary, it had a new ABI 3200 tailwheel assembly installed two annuals back and was and maintained every 50 hours with a complete disassembly and had packed with ABI-specified red synthetic grease.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As soon as I heard of this accident I knew the airplane well enough that it had to be pilot error. The ferry company's insurance carrier tried to state the problem was with corrosion and the age of the landing gear. I guess they missed the fact everything was new and was the improved AOSS. The insurance carrier sent a photo to the purchaser, who never saw his new airplane in person, stating it had corrosion. It was emailed to me and I looked at that one photo (hard to take everything into consideration with only one photo) and could tell there was zero corrosion and no evidence of fatigue cracking. It was a straight overload structural failure caused by over-stressing the structure. Even though I knew it wasn't the gear's fault it makes me feel good to see Steve Pierce had the same instant conclusion. And more so the NTSB laboratory. The stuff the insurance adjuster was calling corrosion was actually primer applied inside the tube. Again, more evidence of ignorance on the insurance companys' part. They were probably grasping for straws to get out of paying for the mess.

    So let me get this straight. A 25 year old pilot with 4 hours in Super Cubs is sent out to fetch one (there is no mention of total tailwheel time) and at his first fuel stop he is nervous enough to decide to fly the pattern and do some touch and goes. Has anybody ever heard of a ferry pilot doing touch and goes enroute? Most seasoned types know it is best to get on down the road and only only land for fuel as necessary and minimize the liability exposure of more landings than necessary. Also, with respect to a new airplane or type I have always maintained that if you are not sure how things might go on landing you might as well wait until your first stop to try one. Especially single seaters with no opportunity for checkout (which does not apply here). You are already in the air flying might as well put some miles on it. Plus if you are going to crash something you ought to be as close to the house as possible and presumably each next stop is closer to your destination.

    This whole episode is disheartening as that was such an incredibly nice Super Cub.

    Here is a flight log of our delivery flight to Maryland last Sept...

    https://eflyer.barnstormers.com/2019...LYER-FA01.html

    Jim
    Last edited by jliltd; 05-14-2020 at 01:20 PM.
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  33. #1673
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    This is the Cub after the wreck that I mentioned...


    Mike, the original owner that rebuilt it after that wreck spared no expense.. new fuselage (I actually have the bent one in storage) new landing gear, new spars in the wings. We overhauled that engine and then built him a new one after the oil cooler split open and he threw a rod through the crankcase... That gear failure was due to over stressing, no fault of the airplane at all..

    Brian


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  34. #1674
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post

    You mean like that?

    Like Steve always said, you can break an anvil if you try hard enough


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This type of clamp looks like a stress inducer?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  35. #1675
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    This type of clamp looks like a stress inducer?

    Glenn
    I think the two foot rise at the beginning of the sand bar did it.


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  36. #1676
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I think the two foot rise at the beginning of the sand bar did it.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    hahahahah. Doesn't the Mike Dick Sandbar have a similar story? Good stories, all of them.

  37. #1677

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    This type of clamp looks like a stress inducer?

    Glenn
    Glenn. Not for the damage shown. The gear leg failed in buckling, so had add-on step been lower on the front gear tube it could have actually have helped to stabilize the tube. Not that the outcome would have been any better in this case. Basically the step turns the gear tube column is two shorter columns that each can take far more compression without buckling. Analogous to the action of this step would be the jury struts on the wing. Structurally the jury strut doesn't have to be very strong at all as long as it is there to stabilize the lift strut in compression making it into two stronger shorter sections. So jury struts are designed for durability and ground handling more than flight loads. But what they do with columnar stability is pure magic.

    Now, if somebody thought a Super Cub was a Caterpillar tractor and over-tightened the U bolts on the step they could cause a deformation and an associated induced stress concentration. This may or may not have been a factor in the pictured damage as the buckling on the rear gear tube was right at the step mount which means it could have been destabilized by the U bolt. Then again it could have stabilized the step and made that point stronger, with same end result. Without the step the failure may have been at the longeron. Bottom line the loads were to high for anything to either cause or help the situation. Reading that I now feel like a political hack dancing around a definitive answer....
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  38. #1678
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Looks like Airframes has addressed the "columnar" strength improvement:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  39. #1679
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I “heard about” (no involvement by me) a Cub (-18, on 35’s, with a skilled pilot) that came home with that welded lower step , on the picture from BC -12D cracked off from one end. Dunno which end. He didn’t know where, when, or how it happened.

    We all know those rear gear tubes flex some.
    Last edited by Dave Calkins; 05-15-2020 at 06:24 PM. Reason: clarification
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  40. #1680
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Another long timer Alaskan goes west: https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=1...,BARROW,N5454E

    Personal friend and parked next to me at the floatpond. Tens of thousands of Alaskan hours since early '70's from Ketchikan to Barrow. Passenger survived I'm told.

    Goodbye Jim you'll be missed and thanks for the mentoring.

    Gary

    Edit: More background> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/0...54e-fatal.html
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