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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2121
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    C-185 very sad and premature to say why or how. There is a recent AD 2020–21–22 regarding the tail structure that's been discussed on various forums. Here's an example of inflight failure but that may not apply here: http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/0...-to-pilot.html

    Gary

  2. #2122

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I agree with MTV about how a lot of these checklist recitations are done by rote.
    I was in the back seat of a friend's Apache on a training flight when he was working on his instrument ticket.
    Did all his checklist stuff early, & on final, did his "centerline check":
    "three green, props to go".
    Only I think his CFI pulled the breaker or something on the gear,
    so he didn't really have 3 green....
    But I guess he was used to saying it without really seeing it.
    Continued down to a pretty short final & finally the instructor asked him if it might not be a good idea to put the gear down.
    Pretty funny, but you can sure see what could easily happen in a real-world situation.
    On my commercial ride the DPE said “all we have left is steep spirals and engine out to a spot landing, ya want to throw them together?”
    After we rolled to a stop he said “not bad, your checklist callout was perfect but you were holding the checklist upside down”


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  3. #2123
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Prelim is out on the 185 in Chitna.

    https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/a...ort/102605/pdf


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  4. #2124

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    Right wing separation? I hope the NTSB figures this one out sooner than later.

  5. #2125

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    I find it a bit frightening when a preliminary report concentrates on the ski's while the outer wing is the first part down and the inner wing is with the empennage.
    How about that right lift strut and lower cabin structure? If it were a strut related failure it would be interesting how or why the wing separated in the middle and landed apart from the rest.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process
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  6. #2126

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    Ski failure is the first thing most of us Skywagon guys thought of. There's a historical precedent and initially this report sounded familiar. Obviously there's more to the story.

  7. #2127

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    Maybe they just wanted to answer the question so many were likely wondering about based on the Canadian accident.

  8. #2128

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Ski failure is the first thing most of us Skywagon guys thought of. There's a historical precedent and initially this report sounded familiar. Obviously there's more to the story.
    Beat me to it..
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  9. #2129

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    In flight? I have not heard that to be common. I can see issues on the ground, clearly I have not kept up to date with skis breaking planes apart in the air.
    I recognize issues with rigging failures which I presume is the issue brought up here.
    Regards, Charlie
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  10. #2130

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  11. #2131
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    If you look at the picture of the Copper Valley wreckage (ref in #2123), there appears to be some red color transfer (ski paint or vegetation?) near the N-number and fuselage crack. The Canadian report above noted a red paint transfer marks from the ski (?) on the tail and wing. Might just be a coincidence.

    Gary

  12. #2132
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    If you look at the picture of the Copper Valley wreckage (ref in #2123), there appears to be some red color transfer (ski paint or vegetation?) near the N-number and fuselage crack. The Canadian report above noted a red paint transfer marks from the ski (?) on the tail and wing. Might just be a coincidence.

    Gary
    Aircraft was formerly orange and red. Old paint showing through.

    As noted, skis not damaged prior to impact: Page 3 of 5
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  13. #2133
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Any ideas on the wing failure yet? Control flutter for the right wing near the yellow arc? It's sad event.

    Gary
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  14. #2134

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    Red paint caught my eye, too. The report said "all skiarresting cables, bungees, and rigging were intact and attached to their respective attach points" so I doubt the paint is from a ski. Can't tell if the gear leg failures are pre-crash or not. Some years ago, I was flying a 185 with FliLite 4000's. I was in a long descent with the skis in the down position and around 140 knots the right ski "tucked", and 'folded up' under the aircraft to hit the fuselage with the ski perpendicular to ground and sideways to the fuselage like a big speed brake. I lost control of the a/c and about 3,000' until it slowed enough to reduce the air pressure holding the ski against the a/c and the gear leg snapped back in position.. Then it started bucking back & forth from the normal position to banging against the a/c. Finally we got slow enough for the gear leg to stay where it was supposed to, about 70 knots. I was able to continue to the airport but found that if I got much faster than 70 knots, the gear would start tucking again. I don't remember ever being worried about the aircraft coming apart as the G loads during the episode were not a big deal IMO but when the ski tucked the nose pointed to the ground until the gear snapped back to normal.

    At this point I'm reluctant to suspect a ski failure. Since all the cables were intact, the Canada scenario doesn't apply. If his gear leg tucked like mine did, I can't imagine the a/c coming apart unless he was way up in the yellow arc but the GPS data doesn't suggest that.

    I'm curious why the tail and right wing departed in the air. It's almost like the guy did a snap roll and exceeded the limits. But where did the red paint come from? Mid-air collision with a UFO???
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  15. #2135
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Paint over paint? Odd way to refurbish an aircraft today. Not disputing it just curious. Should be confirmed as source of red.

    Gary

  16. #2136

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    These old Cessnas all have a history. I'd expect a repairs and maintenance history investigation is next.
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  17. #2137
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    I would also as noted above, suspect aileron flutter. That happened to one of our 185s, due to ice formed in the back of the aileron. Parked on the Slope, no wing covers, due to winds. Snow blew in through lightening holes, thawed, froze, and became clear.

    The flutter happened at takeoff, but could have occurred anywhere, I guess. Massive vibration, and he came back and landed. Right wing was bent up at strut attach. Aileron outboard hinges broke, and aileron was bent almost 90 degrees up. I think I recall an investigator saying that had that hinge not failed, the wing probably would have failed.

    It'll be interesting to see what they come up with on this one. Ugly doesn't even describe it.

    MTV
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  18. #2138
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike I recalled that event - the pilot's (DS?) story was horrific. There's always the potential for aileron imbalance but not everyone knows to check them for open rear openings during preflight. Whenever I saw icicles hanging I tried to find out why. But not suggesting it was 'the' cause here. Another FU is bent ailerons due to tight wing covers. They can form a concave upper surface over time in big winds. I always wondered why they were left in that condition by some.

    Gary

  19. #2139
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    Plane lived in heated hangar for winter.

    I am very glad the Cessna Factory and NTSB are digging deep into this.

    Mike, the flutter story is interesting, I had not heard about that.

    Service for Chris, our pilot, is tomorrow. Godspeed.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  20. #2140
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    On another C-185 I rode with a really long time 135 pilot several times. He was an A&P and did his own maintenance except that which required an IA. Even in calm air he would continuously rock the control yoke what looked like 1" travel. Ailerons never appeared to move much and the hinges smoked some after a flight in rain. I asked him about it and he smiled. On the ground they had some freeplay before the yoke moved - airframe was nearing mid-teen K hrs mostly on floats in SE and Interior Alaska. He crashed last May while on Landes WP skis. Haven't heard about the airframe condition.

    Gary
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  21. #2141
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    Oops, darn it...

    These fellas below flying an ATP may need more taildragger time.

    It’s an interesting read, but the videos to taildragger pilots are damning.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4d8d2671&opt=0


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  22. #2142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    These fellas below flying an ATP may need more taildragger time.

    It’s an interesting read, but the videos to taildragger pilots are damning.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4d8d2671&opt=0


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    Again, better to be lucky than good!!
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  23. #2143
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Yet another Cessna ski malfunction> https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=1...CHORAGE,N1848R

    Gary

  24. #2144

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    A neighbor of mine. I watched him take off the other day but hadn't heard about this accident. He uses LH-4000s. I'm not familiar with how the check cable and spring cable attach on LH skis. I like the no injuries part of the report!

  25. #2145
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    ICA for Landes LH-4000 skis> http://www.airglas.com/Portals/6/NWD...CA-Rev%20B.pdf

    The gear unazzing the airplane on landing is bad. Edit: The required full twist to the tension bungee and minimum tension spec'd is interesting.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 03-09-2021 at 02:45 PM.
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  26. #2146

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    The required twist has to do with vibration, that's all I remember.
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  27. #2147
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    There was one of these fractures in Fairbanks a couple of years ago. Right LH-4000 had a broken yoke - hit something going sideways like this SB notes: http://www.airglas.com/Portals/6/NWD...20Bulletin.pdf

    Gary

  28. #2148

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    I wonder if the discomfort of performing maintenance and thorough pre-flights in windy, sub-zero weather has anything to do with these ski accidents.

  29. #2149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    I wonder if the discomfort of performing maintenance and thorough pre-flights in windy, sub-zero weather has anything to do with these ski accidents.
    Potentially an issue. Fly one often enough and routine dulls the senses. Pre-flight gets in the way of flight sometimes especially during crowed schedules, WX, or diminishing daylight. Then there's landing and takeoffs after departure when things can quickly change for the worse, plus exceeding placarded changes to Vne in flight with skis installed. It's a challenge to look and successfully find defects or changes to the rigging. I don't like the gear departing the airplane scenario above. Was it caused over time or just this event?

    Gary

  30. #2150

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    I'm told this was a rear cable failure. I wouldn't have expected this result but the guy flying that 185 is pretty damn good so I've got to believe he did all he could to minimize the damage.

    4 souls and no injuries is a blessing just the same.

  31. #2151
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Potentially an issue. Fly one often enough and routine dulls the senses. Pre-flight gets in the way of flight sometimes especially during crowed schedules, WX, or diminishing daylight. Then there's landing and takeoffs after departure when things can quickly change for the worse, plus exceeding placarded changes to Vne in flight with skis installed. It's a challenge to look and successfully find defects or changes to the rigging. I don't like the gear departing the airplane scenario above. Was it caused over time or just this event?

    Gary
    Complacency is a cold hearted bitch, a heated home hangar helps keep her at bay for me. I almost, ALMOST.... welcome something going wrong now and then, just to not let her sneak in. The better things are running, the longer, the worst it gets, or can get, same with most of life I guess but for sure with airplanes, and for me, cranes both.
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  32. #2152
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Spec from Landes is 5/32 rear check cable in that ICA doc in #2145. Maybe larger is better especially with heavy skis and various loads? Then there's possibly compromised attachment hardware and nicopress sleeves. Eventually what failed will be revealed. Four souls uninjured is good news. Could have been all manner of airframe damage inflight.

    I spent many hrs with Fluidyne AWB 3600's. The worst of both worlds always twisting and banging around in the air and on the ground. Amazing they held together like they did.

    Gary

  33. #2153
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    Thank you for the information Stewart. Maybe at some point you will be able to relay the cause, and how we can avoid possible issues in the future. Getting it done with no injuries is the best thing I have heard all day.

    Flew my first set of the Landis Retract skis today, just a familiarization ride on the runway. Was reading up on them and came across this, with the note in the ICA- Place placard on instrument panel in full view of the pilot:

    IN FLOATPLANE, AMPHIBIAN AND SKIPLANES EQUIPED WITH AIRGLAS LH4000 RETRACT FLAPS TO 20° IMMEDIATELY AFTER APPLYING POWER FOR BALKED LANDING GO-AROUND

    Anyone consider mounting them on a Floatplane or Amphibian?



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  34. #2154

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  35. #2155

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    So a expired medical. What does the FAA say about that?


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  36. #2156
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffP View Post
    So a expired medical. What does the FAA say about that?


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    Basic Med?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  37. #2157
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    Just a scratch, it will buff right out

  38. #2158

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    Needed the 35" tires...
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  39. #2159

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    Gust lock between flap and aileron, hopefully installed after accident to keep the wind from causing further damage.

  40. #2160
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    Real outlaws have small numbers


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