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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2361
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Bird Strike Test.
    This is a real confidence builder for the carbon fiber blades! In looking at the video of the sudden stop, the blade appears to bend a long way back and then spring forward. To find no defects afterwards is very good news.
    N1PA
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  2. #2362
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    I am far from an expert on anything related to aviation, but when I saw the video the day it was posted I was amazed at the bend of the blade. But like most others I thought it was toast and the engine would need a thorough check. I now wonder if the blade flexing so much helped protect the engine?
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  3. #2363

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    Yikes! So that was what happened to the German soldier in “Raiders of the Lost Ark.” That had to hurt!

  4. #2364
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    This one has a good ending


  5. #2365
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    It does, but come'on... a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR, that was scared and had to have another CFI tell him on the radio that it was okay to land on the highway. I wonder if he was qualified enough to understand why the fan quit...
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  6. #2366
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    Probably a CFI building time with 2 to 3 hundred hours. Sad.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  7. #2367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    This one has a good ending


    Ominous remark from the reporter at the end of the clip: The FAA will investigate".

    I'm curious if the anonymous airline pilot was in an airliner,
    or perhaps in another nearby GA airplane--
    he seemed to be coaching the pilot "you're looking good....watch that truck".
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  8. #2368
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    Oops, darn it...

    Sadly another 150 instructional flight just went down in the water near Jay Stanford. A CFI on his last flight due to his wife having some medical issues and an 18 yr old student. Neither survived.

    Not sure if it’s just the constant stream of info now or an uptick on accidents, but it’s not good.

    Single pilot appears to have stalled and spun in his recently purchased Decathlon at my local airport two days ago, lucky to have survived the crash. Airlifted to Albany Med. -hypotheses is this happened during a go around but many questions linger.


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  9. #2369
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    The airline pilot coaching the student/instructor seemed like he was GA very nearby.

    Geez, the stall/spin low to the ground needs to stop. We were all taught how to avoid it in basic training. Full power and nose no higher than level until you have the sufficient airspeed.
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  10. #2370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    The airline pilot coaching the student/instructor seemed like he was GA very nearby.

    Geez, the stall/spin low to the ground needs to stop. We were all taught how to avoid it in basic training. Full power and nose no higher than level until you have the sufficient airspeed.
    Respectfully, I’ll beg to disagree. Today, many pilots are not taught even the rudiments of aerodynamics, or stall/spin aerodynamics. In fact, many pilots were never taught proper use of the controls. In short, we’re doing a pretty good job of teaching students how to manage a GPS, but we seem to be failing them when it comes to LOC avoidance.

    And those folks become flight instructors……

    MTV
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  11. #2371
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Respectfully, I’ll beg to disagree. Today, many pilots are not taught even the rudiments of aerodynamics, or stall/spin aerodynamics. In fact, many pilots were never taught proper use of the controls. In short, we’re doing a pretty good job of teaching students how to manage a GPS, but we seem to be failing them when it comes to LOC avoidance.

    And those folks become flight instructors……

    MTV
    I am sure you are correct, but my instructor (got my license last fall) beat that stuff into my head.

    Edited to add: I did all of my cross country stuff with paper flight planning and a paper chart until he was convinced I could do it in my sleep. Only then was I allowed to use my phone/foreflight. And it was not just point to point, it was departure to TOC to the needed landmarks, and then to the TOD to TPA to traffic pattern. Not much was left to chance. It was a long arduous process filling out all the points on the flight planning chart but in the end it was great education
    Last edited by Utah-Jay; 06-19-2021 at 06:22 PM.
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  12. #2372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    I am sure you are correct, but my instructor (got my license last fall) ........
    Serious Question - Not to be taken as an offense, just looking for some objective basis to understand what has REALLY changed in primary flight instruction.

    • How many power on, full stalls do you estimate your performed?
    • How many deep stalls (Holding the elevator to the stops)?
    • How many accelerated stalls?
    • How many cross-controlled stalls?


    Just looking for estimate of what you learned vs. what I learned. I found that even 30 years ago they had stopped teaching some of the things I now consider "Basic"...
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  13. #2373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    I am sure you are correct, but my instructor (got my license last fall) beat that stuff into my head.

    Edited to add: I did all of my cross country stuff with paper flight planning and a paper chart until he was convinced I could do it in my sleep. Only then was I allowed to use my phone/foreflight. And it was not just point to point, it was departure to TOC to the needed landmarks, and then to the TOD to TPA to traffic pattern. Not much was left to chance. It was a long arduous process filling out all the points on the flight planning chart but in the end it was great education
    Good for your instructor, but cross country flight planning has little to do with LOC. If your instructor did that stuff, I hope he or she also really worked hard on the subjects I was noting: aerodynamics and loss of control. Very few instructors these days do, and many haven’t even learned this stuff themselves.
    Which is why we have so many LOC accidents.

    MTV

  14. #2374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Serious Question - Not to be taken as an offense, just looking for some objective basis to understand what has REALLY changed in primary flight instruction.

    • How many power on, full stalls do you estimate your performed?
    • How many deep stalls (Holding the elevator to the stops)?
    • How many accelerated stalls?
    • How many cross-controlled stalls?


    Just looking for estimate of what you learned vs. what I learned. I found that even 30 years ago they had stopped teaching some of the things I now consider "Basic"...
    I pretty much did all that stuff every flight prior to my dual CC day, and did all the time once I solo’ed, but I am just going from memory so not hard numbers. I did all my training in a taildragger, solo’ed at 11.5 hours and got my Sport Pilot Certificate at 31.5 hours. My buddy started at the same time in the same plane and same instructor, took him 69 hours to get his certificate. That being said, I am totally OCD and studied pretty much nonstop the whole time, flew minimum 2 hours sessions 3-4 times a week. I take it very seriously and all of my training and post certificate flying is geared towards being competent in the backcountry flying.

  15. #2375
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Good for your instructor, but cross country flight planning has little to do with LOC. If your instructor did that stuff, I hope he or she also really worked hard on the subjects I was noting: aerodynamics and loss of control. Very few instructors these days do, and many haven’t even learned this stuff themselves.
    Which is why we have so many LOC accidents.

    MTV
    MTV, my reply was in regards to your GPS training comment. I do think my instructor was excellent in teaching constant diligence for emergencies of all types, and never allowing the plane to get near the edge of LOC. That being said, I do think he trained me/us to be too fast on final (60mph in a Rans S-20) and I have subsequently self trained to really slow down and normally hear the G3x stall beep get more intense as I approach the touchdown point. My stall in the Rans S-21 is 42mph at a safe altitude and I am pretty solid on 46-48 on short final and sub-46 at the threshold and beyond. Everything I read and see, it seems most low hour pilots are way too fast and float burning precious runway availability.

    I have a day scheduled next week to train with Dick Williams up in Idaho and I think that will be really educational.
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  16. #2376
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    On my PP cross country in Alaska the instructor had me close my eyes for several minutes while he descended to low level, then had me figure out where I was. I had to climb to get a perspective vs chart then identify ground features and grab a bearing from a couple of NAVAIDS...VOR and NDB. That plus elapsed time and estimated distance/bearing got us back on flight plan. Having never seen the terrain it was a good exercise in what if.

    LOC....that was demonstrated both under the hood and visually to recovery. Ooops darn and now you have the airplane stuff including spins. Over and over until it was just another routine event. Ex military instructor for a teacher.

    Gary

  17. #2377
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    On my PP cross country in Alaska the instructor had me close my eyes for several minutes while he descended to low level, then had me figure out where I was. I had to climb to get a perspective vs chart then identify ground features and grab a bearing from a couple of NAVAIDS...VOR and NDB. That plus elapsed time and estimated distance/bearing got us back on flight plan. Having never seen the terrain it was a good exercise in what if.

    LOC....that was demonstrated both under the hood and visually to recovery. Ooops darn and now you have the airplane stuff including spins. Over and over until it was just another routine event. Ex military instructor for a teacher.

    Gary
    Yep, my CFI made me do the closed eyes thing and tried to disorient me as well then said the plane is yours. I could feel it all with my butt so it seemed pretty easy

  18. #2378
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Yep, my CFI made me do the closed eyes thing and tried to disorient me as well then said the plane is yours. I could feel it all with my butt so it seemed pretty easy
    Good. Do that every time you have an instructor onboard. Over and over both under the hood and visually....if that's an available procedure for them. Learning to recover (or potential loss of altitude during) is as important as avoiding upset - my opinion but not necessarily the FAA's via their published standards of performance.

    Keep at it.

    Gary
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  19. #2379
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    Just my two cents, and I'm not an expert pilot. But having spent some years teaching, I know that the most learning takes place just beyond one's present skill level. So when I receive BFRs I request that the instructor make me sweat. Some do, and many don't. Anyway, I'd suggest that you make that request of your instructor. Sounds like you have a very good one.

    Edit: And regarding the closed eyes thing - try not to sense what he's doing while your eyes are closed. If you can successfully do that it is not realistic to an actual LOC situation. You MUST be able to reorient based only on what you see when you open your eyes, either outside reference or instrument reference - NOT what your butt and inner ear are telling you.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 06-19-2021 at 11:38 PM.
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  20. #2380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    MTV, my reply was in regards to your GPS training comment. I do think my instructor was excellent in teaching constant diligence for emergencies of all types, and never allowing the plane to get near the edge of LOC. That being said, I do think he trained me/us to be too fast on final (60mph in a Rans S-20) and I have subsequently self trained to really slow down and normally hear the G3x stall beep get more intense as I approach the touchdown point. My stall in the Rans S-21 is 42mph at a safe altitude and I am pretty solid on 46-48 on short final and sub-46 at the threshold and beyond. Everything I read and see, it seems most low hour pilots are way too fast and float burning precious runway availability.

    I have a day scheduled next week to train with Dick Williams up in Idaho and I think that will be really educational.
    That’s good. My point regarding GPS was that many/most instructors spend an inordinate percent of training time focused on things like GPS and nav. versus the actual flying. Harder to get killed planning a cross country, as opposed to exploring the edges of the airplanes envelope.

    And, yes, you’re right: Instructors teach waaaay too fast on approach in many cases….again because they’re afraid of the edges. I fought that every day at the University. Won a few.

    MTV
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  21. #2381
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    When I converted my license for Bolivia, Commercial/Instrument checkride did not include any stalls. I was allowed to slow the 172 to around 50 KIAS and when the examiner yelled "stall" I was to "recover." We are fortunate in the US for the depth of experience still available in CFIs, if you look for it.

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  22. #2382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Yep, my CFI made me do the closed eyes thing and tried to disorient me as well then said the plane is yours. I could feel it all with my butt so it seemed pretty easy

    I think you'll find it more challenging if YOU handle the controls.

    My first lesson towards my Instrument Rating I was put under the hood and told - keep it straight and level. That doesn't seem too hard, right? I would fly a little and he would ask, Are you straight and level?". I'd reply yes, and he'd flip up the hood. It's pretty impressive when you THINK you're S&L and suddenly have that delusion yanked from under you. Even after I knew what was going to happen I still couldn't do any better. So if you're not disoriented I suspect that you will be if YOU handle the controls. I can tell you I sure was. And all the other guys who went through this too.

    Either way the lesson is the same - trust the instruments before you trust yourself. That's why I replied; it's potentially dangerous to believe that your butt is somehow more sensitive and discriminating than everybody else's. Even if it actually is, it's dangerous to believe so. Consequently, the failure of your Instructor to get you disoriented before revealing the attitude to you can actually be counterproductive to safety. Believe it, you can and will get disoriented under the right circumstances. My recommendation is to seek out an instructor who can get you disoriented - even if only for one lesson. Yes you've heard the lesson and understand the principle, but actual exposure to the phenomenon will make you not only a believer but a disciple!
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  23. #2383
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    Great stuff guys, thanks!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Yep, my CFI made me do the closed eyes thing and tried to disorient me as well then said the plane is yours. I could feel it all with my butt so it seemed pretty easy
    As other have said - you learned the wrong thing from that lesson.
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  25. #2385
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    Oops, darn it...

    Perhaps some of you follow Elliot Sequin from Wasabi test flying aircraft for people, largely in development of changes or modifications.
    As I tend to geek out regarding breakdown of events I find he does a good job dissecting each of his flights.

    Everyone can learn and picking up tips for building and design as well as remembering if an issue arises is always a good thing.

    https://youtu.be/4PHTVTw_Y2A


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…
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  26. #2386
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    Apparently, the 2021 raffle Cub was damaged in an accident at Pine Lake, YT.

    MTV

  27. #2387
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    The runway at Pine Lake Yukon Territory is about 3000 ft and up around 3000 ft msl. As I recall it is about an hour away from Watson lake at Cub speed. Any word on what happened?
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  28. #2388
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Apparently, the 2021 raffle Cub was damaged in an accident at Pine Lake, YT.

    MTV
    oh no

  29. #2389

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    I’ve used Pine Lake a few times to wait for weather. There’s nothing around there at all.

  30. #2390
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    I stopped at Pine Lake to change the oil once 40 years ago. Nice airstrip.
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  31. #2391

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    The runway at Pine Lake Yukon Territory is about 3000 ft and up around 3000 ft msl. As I recall it is about an hour away from Watson lake at Cub speed. Any word on what happened?
    looped, wing damage, everyone is safe
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  32. #2392

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    I helped a friend ferry a plane up from Minnesota in April. Both of us have cubs and fly off field. Both of us tried to wreck that plane on most every landing. The plane flew fine however airspeed was sticking at 60 mph causing us to get too slow. I figured it out on the last landing that his wife got a Video of, so she may not believe I ever had a problem. Bottom line is any time you are flying a plane that is new to you it is very easy to have issues. Google Earth that strip, it is at T junction in the mountains, winds can get real strange in that situation. Stuff happens, it is not the first, and won't be the last. Glad everyone is OK. DENNY
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  33. #2393
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    There was a paid ferry pilot aboard.

    MTV
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  34. #2394
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    Do you get a refund?
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    There was a paid ferry pilot aboard.

    MTV
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  35. #2395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Do you get a refund?
    Nope, former fighter pilot….

    MTV
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  36. #2396

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    Word is the owner wanted to land it…he got behind it and the ferry pilot, Jon “Jughead Counsell” who is an experienced tw pilot/instructor (forget f15 and airshow pilot as well) couldn’t catch it in time and around she went. Report from Kevin Quinn via fb. **** can happen. Jug survived a Mach plus ejection over the Gulf of Mexico in an F15 in The 90s…yowza. Poor guys prolly feel lousy but are ok so good for that. This guy will never judge.

  37. #2397

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    Word is the owner wanted to land it…he got behind it and the ferry pilot, Jon “Jughead Counsell” who is an experienced tw pilot/instructor (forget f15 and airshow pilot as well) couldn’t catch it in time and around she went. Report from Kevin Quinn via fb. **** can happen. Jug survived a Mach plus ejection over the Gulf of Mexico in an F15 in The 90s…yowza. Poor guys prolly feel lousy but are ok so good for that. This guy will never judge.
    I have been along for the ride when a tail wheel student swapped ends. Fortunately no damage. Anyone who thinks it could never happen to them is delusional. The line between taking over too soon and sapping confidence and taking over too late and having a bent airplane is very very fine.
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  38. #2398
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I have been along for the ride when a tail wheel student swapped ends. Fortunately no damage. Anyone who thinks it could never happen to them is delusional. The line between taking over too soon and sapping confidence and taking over too late and having a bent airplane is very very fine.
    Yes, indeed.

    MTV

  39. #2399
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    Oops, darn it...

    I copied the following link from SWP’s.org… figured I would post it hear so that we can all learn..

    Short Wing Piper fatal accident…

    https://spotthelesson.com/2021/06/21...unday-june-20/


    Unfortunately, this happened at my home field. Hank was flying in on Sunday the 20th for a scheduled annual inspection to be done on Monday the 21st. The airplane was a PA-22-135.

    Beagle is 3200 feet at 1430 field elevation. There is a 750 foot overrun that goes uphill about 100 feet on the north end. The field is co-owned by 9 individual properties. We have a 4.8 acre parcel located just north of mid field with about 250 feet of runway access running through the Western end of the property. (long and narrow property). The accident site was on the South end about 400 to 500 feet East of the airfield. At 3 PM here it was between 95 to 100 degrees of dry heat. The official high was 100 degrees but that is taken about 13 miles into the main town and it is always a few degrees hotter out here. I calculated the density altitude to be about 4000 feet.

    This accident was completely avoidable. But, from what I hear, Hank was bound and determined to fly that airplane here as he had already re-scheduled with me 3 times. The aircraft was out of annual. Here is the event as described to me by several people.

    Hank left Grants Pass airport about 1:00 PM or so. Grants Pass is 25 miles directly west of Beagle. He flew past Beagle and landed at Shady Cove airport about 6 miles North East of Beagle. There were several people there that approached him and described Hank as being agitated and acting dehydrated and sweating due to the heat. All of them tried to get him to stay at the airport and get someone else to fly the airplane the rest of the way to my field. But he insisted that he had to fly and left. They were worried enough about him that they drove here to check on him. Witnesses on my field say he flew over East to West at about 400 feet AGL flying very slow. He turned South for downwind approach over the hanger row just to the West of the field, probably 100 foot from center line of runway or closer. He turned his base leg and final to the North but was way to the East for the approach end still low and slow. It was described that he did a sharp left turn to try and get the aircraft back to center of the runway and the airplane stalled spun low level to impact.

    Hanks health the last couple of years has been very poor.. He could barely walk and I found out earlier this week that he had a heart attack the previous week. There is no reason he should have been flying that airplane at that time of day in the condition he was in.

    Its a tragic series of events and I hope my write up here will be seen as a lesson to all that there is absolutely NO reason to fly an airplane in high heat with bad health conditions..

    Brian.


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    Last edited by Steve's Aircraft (Brian); 06-24-2021 at 10:48 PM.
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  40. #2400
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Wow Brian. I'm sorry to see this, but thanks for giving us the reminder.

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