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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2921

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Hamon View Post
    I have taken off from Lake Hood in similar conditions with a similar load, though boxes of tools were substituted for some of the passengers. I am amazed in watching that video at how early he was off the water. The wind didn't look to be strong enough to be airborne that early, let alone as high up as he got. But without the actual numbers, just puzzling it out loud based on what little I know. What I see in that video doesn't make sense at all.
    Troy
    I think the video is very deceiving, I believe he took off on the SE runway and the video starts after he was off the water. Load was six people, lunch, and fuel. If you look at the trees you can see a big gust was happening, Most likely a strong gusting quartering tailwind like Cubplot2 mentioned when he was over the slow taxi channel heading east. Not a simple or routine takeoff. I think the changing/gusting wind was a big factor but not the only factor. The plane landed 525 feet from my 180. DENNY

  2. #2922

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    Hi Denny.

    Yes, based on the wind on the water it looks like he would have been cleared to take off SE with an E option. Unless it is blowing over 30 or his people were super light, he should have been on the water until near Airmenís point. But it looks as if he lifts off well before that. Although the beavers I operate are gross at 5600 so maybe he is operating lighter than I am assuming. Anyway, a step turn and east takeoff with a south or southeast wind should not be particularly challenging if he is operating commercially. I wasnít in the plane. What doesnít make sense to me is what happened inside that airplane.

    And he and his passengers, and you and all the other tenants over in that commercial finger, are incredibly fortunate that when it came unhooked at the end it ended up in the water and not on land.
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  3. #2923

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    525 feet is close, but Dominics 180 was much closer at the end of the finger. 77AV. Glad his wasn't involved.

  4. #2924
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Whatever happened the pilot was offered the load and flight. Maybe not a choice that person would have routinely accepted. The Beaver didn't like the conditions and responded like those that fly them know can happen. At some point in this event somebody needed to either reject the flight, or pay particular attention based on earlier experiences...or they too will become passengers.

    Gary

  5. #2925
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    The pilot’s total time, time in type, and time on floats will be interesting to hear.

  6. #2926
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    I think the changing/gusting wind was a big factor but not the only factor. The plane landed 525 feet from my 180. DENNY

    This is the exact scenario we argued about all those years ago about downwind turns.
    You can see something happen just as he levels the wings. Whether it was from a windshear caused by the buildings or a simple gust of wind, it's a perfect example of what happens when you are right on the edge.
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  7. #2927
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    This is the exact scenario we argued about all those years ago about downwind turns.
    You can see something happen just as he levels the wings. Whether it was from a windshear caused by the buildings or a simple gust of wind, it's a perfect example of what happens when you are right on the edge.
    And, of course one should understand that, certainly while carrying passengers for hire, or if you value your own hide, you should NOT be operating right on that edge.
    Accident report should read: Pilot failed to do some of that Pilot **** at the appropriate moment.

    no rocket science here, just fly the plane.

    MTV
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  8. #2928
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    I’m a low time pilot, and never flown a Beaver…. But damn lower the nose
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  9. #2929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    I’m a low time pilot, and never flown a Beaver…. But damn lower the nose
    That's easier said than done when you've gotten yourself in that situation and you feel it start to sink.
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  10. #2930
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    We can armchair all we want but I think it goes way beyond this pilots mistake in this particular situation.

  11. #2931

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    Llooked like the right wing was trying to stall in the first part of the turn and a gust or a lot of rudder brought that back up then maybe the fuselage blocked some of the next gust coming from 90 degrees off his right side and he lost it. It is super scary situation happening very I remember S2D screaming in my headset ( what are you doing ) when a gust and my poor decisions compounded to put me up on my left wing tip at 10 or so feet AGL. It was over and I got lucky before I had much time to do much of anything and couldnít have found the PTT to answer if I had wanted to.

  12. #2932
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Only armchairing here: At 0:13 starting a left turn the left aileron appears to be down and matching the flap deflection. Not recommended.

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...e-crash-video/

    Gary

  13. #2933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    I’m a low time pilot, and never flown a Beaver…. But damn lower the nose
    At the point the wings are waggling, it was over.

    Got some room in front??? Build airspeed THEN turn with heavy planes. If he had come out of there another 10MPH faster he would have bobbled, but a nose drop would have recovered. No reason not to climb at 90 in gusty conditions with that plane.

    Not all the pax were big. Couple children and below normal tourist adult weights, but lots of fuel you can bet.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  14. #2934
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    What's fuel burn Lake Hood to Katmai and return? 5 hrs +-?

    Gary

  15. #2935

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    Minimum five hours RT, enroute wx big factor. Beaver will flight plan 25g/hr, most will take on fuel at King salmon or Port Alsworth.
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  16. #2936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randyk View Post
    Minimum five hours RT, enroute wx big factor. Beaver will flight plan 25g/hr, most will take on fuel at King salmon or Port Alsworth.
    This raises a question in my mind. IF transients can "pick up fuel in Port Alsworth", how is the fuel transported to Port Alsworth at it's roadless location? It must be flown in with DC-6 or C-130 tankers? There isn't any barge access, is there?
    N1PA

  17. #2937
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This raises a question in my mind. IF transients can "pick up fuel in Port Alsworth", how is the fuel transported to Port Alsworth at it's roadless location? It must be flown in with DC-6 or C-130 tankers? There isn't any barge access, is there?

    DC-4, DC-6 or C-113
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  18. #2938
    Lisa Martin LMartin's Avatar
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    Itís so strange. I donít understand what would be in front of him to make him choose that risky turn. Control jam? I heard of an airplane this spring that had the elevator jam in the up position at take off. A roll to the left at a few hundred feet agl got it into level flight after the stall warning, shake and pilot stating , ďHelp meĒ quickly developed. Power management brought it safely in through a high speed landing. Turned out the mechanical failure was an unused iPad bracket that had spun around and jammed under the yoke and hooked into the trim window so that the elevator would not move either way.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  19. #2939
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    Watch the aileron position. He didn’t turn downwind. He was fighting it. He lost.
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  20. #2940
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Watch the aileron position. He didnít turn downwind. He was fighting it. He lost.
    Can you please post a couple of screen snapshots showing this aileron deflection. The video I'm looking at has insufficient resolution to see control deflections.

  21. #2941

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    Call me judgmental, ignorant, whatever, but I havenít seen anything in any video of this event that wouldnít have been solved by simply keeping the nose down, accelerating, and climbing shallow... I kinda thought thatís just what you do in a heavy plane, especially when gusty/squirrelly, but what do I know... All I really know is Iím extremely thankful no one was hurt any worse. Now back to analyzing minutia...
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  22. #2942
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Can you please post a couple of screen snapshots showing this aileron deflection. The video I'm looking at has insufficient resolution to see control deflections.
    Speculating of course...see my post #2932 from ~0:08 to 0:13 sec. Note the light reflection on the left wing controls (deflected flap/aileron) vs the right flap only (aileron up?). It's dimly visible until 0:13 then brightens until the full left roll. Click on the video to see the full screen.

    Gary

  23. #2943
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMartin View Post
    Itís so strange. I donít understand what would be in front of him to make him choose that risky turn.
    Exactly. This can't be the first time this plane has taken this trip under similiar conditions. So where was the oversight for these type operations.
    You don't just put someone in the plane and let them have at it !!!!

  24. #2944
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Another factor to be investigated are the dual control trim settings prior to flight. Overhead are roller wheels which activate moveable tabs on the rudder and elevator.

    Gary

  25. #2945
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Watch the aileron position. He didn’t turn downwind. He was fighting it. He lost.

    Are you saying he didn't make that initial 90 turn to the left ??? The plane did it against his will ??

  26. #2946
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    Forward float area can be affected by crosswind and move the nose downwind. Later versions employ two small stabilizer fins at the end of each horizontal stabilizer. Originally DeHavilland installed a large ventral fin to maintain longitudinal stability, but some complained it hit things so Kenmore (I believe) came up with the alternate. The effectiveness of the two in a crosswind might be interesting to know.

    The fin's effectiveness may be airspeed enhanced. Edit: DeHavilland recommends a max crosswind component of 10 mph at 90 deg for takeoff and landing in all configurations.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 08-04-2022 at 03:53 PM.

  27. #2947
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    Are you saying he didn't make that initial 90 turn to the left ??? The plane did it against his will ??
    My perspective as a guy who's familiar with that route in those winds in my own planes? He lost control of the flight very early after becoming airborne. Nobody turns toward floatplane point on purpose. He had the nose high and the wind took the plane. Why he kept it so nose high is a mystery. Once over the slow taxi canal it appears he had full RH aileron trying to keep it heading east. The left turn looks to be the result of a stall. I don't think it's hard to see. As some of us have said on this thread, how he got there makes no sense. Keep in on the step to gain speed, keep it low to the water to use the buildings to block the wind and gain speed, fly over the E-W channel, and start climbing abeam DOT, essentially where the video was being shot.
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  28. #2948
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I see a lot of talk about what are the ailerons doing? How about some right rudder? Did he have the rudder trim set for take off? Maybe he just didn't compensate for the P factor of the R-985? Besides having the nose too high for the conditions.
    N1PA
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  29. #2949

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This raises a question in my mind. IF transients can "pick up fuel in Port Alsworth", how is the fuel transported to Port Alsworth at it's roadless location? It must be flown in with DC-6 or C-130 tankers? There isn't any barge access, is there?
    watch
    DENNY
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  30. #2950
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    watch
    DENNY
    COOL! Thanks, I used to be a Flight Engineer on a DC-6. Every once in a while I would get to fly a leg. Wonderful flying machines, like a big four engine Aztec. One time when I was in Kotzebue a DC-6 taxied in and what do you know, it was one of the ones I used to fly. He had been flying it off the beaches hauling fish. The Airline I flew it for had bought it brand new.

    N1PA

  31. #2951
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Pete,
    To answer your question on fuel, they barge fuel down Cook Inlet to a road; that crosses the hills into the east end of Lake Illiamna, via 18 wheeler with tanker behind it. Or Moody's out of Dillingham, could also bring it up from Seattle to Bristol Bay, and then come up Kvichak River into Lake Iliamna, however there is no way to continue up the Newhalen River to barge it thru 6 mile Lake, onto Lake Clarke that I know of ?? So I suspect fuel at Allworths is via Everett's Air fuel..... So barged fuel in Illiamna; but not into PA, unless things have changed.
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 08-05-2022 at 06:48 AM.
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  32. #2952
    JP
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    Yes Everett's still flies all the time out of Kenai PAEN to all parts in the bush. They routinely do a arrival and or departure right over my hangar at AA16, The pilot is a friend , and my wife told him he better let us know when he departs and arrives so we know he is back. What a thriller to see these old birds still living the dream of flight.
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  33. #2953
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    Spelled Evert’s actually. Great outfit, this delivering 14,500 lbs of building materials to remote lake.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	A01EEBE6-AD13-4699-B4DC-ADD0C749136A.jpeg 
Views:	101 
Size:	175.9 KB 
ID:	61989

    MTV

  34. #2954
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Some of us remember Woods Air Service flying fuel in DC-6s. They used to like flying low through Lake Clark Pass on CAVU days. Quite a sight.

  35. #2955
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Spelled Evert’s actually. Great outfit, this delivering 14,500 lbs of building materials to remote lake.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	A01EEBE6-AD13-4699-B4DC-ADD0C749136A.jpeg 
Views:	101 
Size:	175.9 KB 
ID:	61989

    MTV
    This reminds me of the time I visited Bud Helmericks at his home on Walker Lake. He had a good sized sailboat there. I asked him how they got it there with no roads. They flew it in, in A C-130 landing on the ice.
    N1PA
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  36. #2956
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Some of us remember Woods Air Service flying fuel in DC-6s. They used to like flying low through Lake Clark Pass on CAVU days. Quite a sight.
    They had a C-47 that still had the navigator bubble in the rear cockpit section! Used to see them lots out on the Kusko and Yukon.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  37. #2957

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    I had an incident in which Wentworth Aircraft removed my aircraft when I was not present. Should I be worried about their position on dismantling aircraft? Anybody had an issue with this company before? My buddy thinks they probably sawzalled my wings off. Minimal damage in our opinion.

    Blue Skies,
    Den
    If you get lost while flying, don't try hail a cop. Pick up the first railroad you find and hug it until you get somewhere.

  38. #2958

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    Was it insured?
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  39. #2959
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    It isn’t uncommon for a minor damage accident to suffer major damage during recovery.
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  40. #2960
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Back in early 1980's Buddy Woods (Warren's Dad) delivered
    100's of thousands gallons of fuel out into lodges and villages in western Alaska in a PBY !!! The best of the best
    In the real " Bush Pilot" world. Watched him work his Otter commonly in Illiamna with so many propane bottles seamed like you were unloading a DC3! He would fly in wicked east wind; landing in tricky places, and make it look awful easy. And for those that have never had a buzzjob from a DC-6 that's got all four burning Brite, 20' above ya, you never really been buzzed! The "Woods family" will go down in the history of Alaska Aviation with the Wien's/ Reeve's, Peterson's. To list a few. Buddy had no peers.
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