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Oops, darn it...

In the meantime pending NTSB investigation I wanted to learn something about landing with tailwinds, weight, and runway conditions. Not suggesting though that it was a contributing factor in the recent overrun at Unalaska (http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/10/saab-2000-n686pa-accident-occurred.html). The first link presents the topic and the second emphasizes tailwinds and others.

https://reports.nlr.nl/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10921/549/TP-2005-498.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1148.pdf

Gary
 
Gary, there is some strong comments on that overrun in one of the “Flyout Alaska” Facebook groups. One of two high time ex-Penair pilots talk about going into Dutch Harbor, having a wind observer on the ground for up to the second reports, and how it requires precision with that aircraft. Apparently the 340 was a much preferred aircraft.


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I'm still digesting the links above as it's quite easy to judge and I'm relatively ignorant - large aircraft and tailwind vs performance. Something about trying twice and succeeding once got my attention, but more as I read and learn. I am sure that other pilots figured out that runway and winds. Takes time that maybe wasn't available in this case.

Gary
 
From experiences told to me, not that simple. My neighbor buddy flew the Chain for Reeve Aleutian and PenAir for many years. He described Dutch this way in a txt last nite: "The forecast (and windsock at one end) don't mean s***. Flew into that place for 30 years. All depends on when to make a go or no go decision. Split second decision. I survived." He relates it much more colorfully in person. :crazyeyes:
 
This comment pretty much sums Dutch up. I flew Metroliners into that airport for years with the old Penair. Split second decision making is an understatement, especially with the wind. That ground WX observer (usually Connie) was the greatest asset to pilots. When winds and vis started doing rapid changes her reports were rapid as well. Lots of approach options Front Door, Back Door and multiple approaches to “feel it out” so to speak. Pilots back in those days (737, Electras, Metros, SAAB’s, Grumman’s and Navajo’s etc.) were VERY familiar with reading black water and go around options to minimize turbulence and bad visibility should things not workout. That being said Dutch has had its share of accidents/incidents. When ever a few of us get together and talk flying stories it’s always “remember when that huge headwind turned to a huge tailwind right before touch down.” Everything is great then that linebacker picks your tail up and pushes you faster. Do I stay or Go? You got less than a second to decide before you ate up most of the runway. Sounds easy.
Those Reeve Aleutian crews were pretty impressive in some of the conditions I watched them land in..............got sick just watching one land.
 
from what I heard this morning...
  • pilot is Dash captain for ravn, only had ~130 hours in Saab??, they used to require 300 hours, but they dropped that requirement...(for dutch??)
  • he doesn't like landing the other direction there(there's a name for that approach, I forget what they said it was), and he landed with the wind... twice..

also my girlfriends friend Marri? was on the flight with her 4 kids.... so we were getting pictures right away on her FaceBook feed... she didn't even remember taking them, but they were on her phone...
 
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Not long after Mark Air started service to Dutch with 737s, they took the main gear off one on the sea wall at the approach end of the runway. I can’t recall if that was before the runway was paved.

Reeve would only go there with the YS-11. Electra had more wingspan, and that mountain on the left is mighty close landing 12.

Can be a very unfriendly place.

MTV
 
Not long after Mark Air started service to Dutch with 737s, they took the main gear off one on the sea wall at the approach end of the runway. I can’t recall if that was before the runway was paved.

Reeve would only go there with the YS-11. Electra had more wingspan, and that mountain on the left is mighty close landing 12.

Can be a very unfriendly place.

MTV

It was still gravel at the time. If I recall, the OPSPECS was written such that the runway couldn’t be wet with dew prior to landing. Pilots completed their IOE from the jump seat, and only certain Captains could fly in there. Actually, I think a fair number refused to fly in there in the 737.
 
Negative! I got incredibly tired of an endless precession of RVs doing multiple high speed low approaches at warp eight. When I was ready to leave I actually had to ask this "group" to cut me some slack and make a hole to get out. I considered the whole deal reckless and out of control. You don't do that in the military. Yes, you can do a couple of low approaches to a closed pattern, but there are rules. This sideshow had no rules!

If you make it to the ground you get to watch the mayhem. Isn’t that your type of fun??


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mvivion wrote: Mike, my buddy went into Dutch in both the YS-11 and the Electra. He sez Reeve started taking the Electra in there in the
90's.

Yeah, they started doing some “different” stuff after RCR passed. I was (thankfully) well north of that country by then.

Lots of sketchy stuff happened at Dutch. Orin Seybert and I watched a guy land and almost go over the end sea wall in a Widgeon one day there. We walked over to the Pilot after his pax left and Orin asked him why he’d landed on the ramp? The pilot said “Ramp? Well then, where the hell is the runway?” He didn’t realize the runway was gravel, so landed on the only hard surface. Nice short landing, though. Braking almost put it up on its nose.

But it all worked out.....he had at least five feet of “runway” left. We helped him push the plane back so he could turn it around.

MTV
 
Dutch was never my favorite airport. Went in there in Navajo’s, Conquest’s and a Citation with a gravel kit. The Citation had a restriction that you could not deploy the reversers on gravel runways, but one of our pilots (retired Reeve pilot) pulled full reverse one day so that he wouldn’t go off the end. FOD’d both engine fans, but better than going off the end. I felt bad for him because he went his whole career in Alaska and never put a scratch on anything. Then, his “fun” retirement job he had this happen. Also had a friend who was in the right seat of the ERA Lear that went off the side of the runway and hit the cliff face. Plane was on fire and he pulled the unconscious Captain out and was burned pretty bad doing it.
 
I feel really bad for Orin. He put his heart and soul into that company. I remember winter of 77 (?) he bought the Reeve Goose operation out of Cold Bay, which included the mail contracts for all the water stops and most of the villages on the end of the Peninsula with runways. Reeve hadn't had a Goose pilot for a long time....like many weeks. Orin bought the outfit just before Christmas. He hired Swede Erickson to fly the Goose and Orin brought one of his Widgeons out to CDB and they flew looooong hours trying to catch up with Christmas mail.

Christmas Eve, Orin finished up. Swede had taken the Goose to AKN to have some much needed maintenance done on it. Orin made the last mail run, fueled up, and launched in the dark headed home, which I think was Pilot Point.

Orin always took care of the folks his company served. Danny losing the company to bankruptcy had to hurt bad enough, but then this.....

MTV
 
There must be some real concern over that Saab 2000 and of course the fatality.

Gary

they only owned 3 of the Saab.... so that's 1/3 of the fleet out of service.... PenAir bought them used from some Nascar team... if i remember right.... PenAir's downfall(twice) was trying to expand down into lower 48 essential air service routes....
 
Courier Guy;
Regis#: N201BJ
Aircraft Make: MOONEY
Aircraft Model: M20J
LOCATION
City: AMERICAN FALLS
State: IDAHO

Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES IN A FIELD, AMERICAN FALLS, ID.
INJURY DATA
Total Fatal: 1
Owner Name: WHEELER ROBERT J
 
Here is an odd one.......................

Date: 17-OCT-19
Time: 17:07:00Z
Regis#: N2894
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA18
Event Type: ACCIDENT
Highest Injury: UNKNOWN
Aircraft Missing: No
Damage: SUBSTANTIAL
LOCATION
City: GERLACH
State: NEVADA
Country: UNITED STATES
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES AND WAS ABANDONED, GERLACH, NV.
 
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