Thanks: 
Likes: Reminds me of ed Doyle on Kayak Island after winning Valdez in Kazoom. https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...ie-Doyle/page3
Reminds me of ed Doyle on Kayak Island after winning Valdez in Kazoom. https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...ie-Doyle/page3
Steve Pierce
Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
Will Rogersbrown bear liked this post
Not a Super Cub but an RV8 my friend built in 2004 and sold a few years ago. This pilot may want to consider investing in some lottery tickets after the result of his encounter with power lines. According to the report he didn’t think he had any damage until his buddy flying near him took a look. Successful landing after declaring emergency. Happened in February
Rich
I was landing in a small pond in Plymouth MA years ago with my Colonial C-1 when I spotted a set of wires crossing my path directly in front of the windshield. I pushed the nose down and went under them, don't know how I missed them but I did. I would not have missed them had I pulled the nose up. When I taxied back to check them out, the two poles which supported them were hidden in the trees on either side of the pond. I know, always look for the poles to find the wires. In this case the poles were hidden.Originally Posted by Richgj3
NX1PA
They found Andy Andersen's Aeronca missing from Valdez to Sutton. Guess he ran the motocross track and worked with lots of youth. Sad news. No news release yet.
“We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
Curious what was going on that a student pilot would try going through two passes to Sutton in marginal weather out of Valdez.
If it was a x-c doesn't the instructor need to sign off?
I spent Monday on the Copper below Chitina. The weather alternated between bad and awful. The drive home was also an adventure with occasional squalls the resembled gulf coast rain from Sheep Mountain into Palmer. Not a good flying day.
Godspeed.
grbreen thanked for this post
Learning to stay grounded in marginal weather....there's lots of training for flying and route preparation but maybe not enough for delaying flight due to weather. Sure there's the "go have a look" option but that needs to be planned ahead for a safe turn back point. Easily said - sometimes hard to do without actual experience.
Gary
Well said. Getting home or getting there has finished a lot of pilots. No weather specific training, only learning by experience and that experience can prove fatal. I am not immune, nobody is.
"Always looking up"
I'm not 2nd guessing here about this sad accident as I wasn't there. My choice if fighting weather is try to go have a look but only on level or only slightly rising terrain w/o steep rocks around. Never in steep terrain with decreasing dew point or bracketed by mixed rocks and clouds, even if a broken layer. Passes are bad as they can lead you into limited options to turn around - narrowing notches that turn and twist. Same for descending into what may be better weather only to find a wall, then when turning back the route you just flew has deteriorated into another rising terrain with clouds to the ground. Fuel limits and carbed engines making ice compound the challenge. Better to have a donut and coffee then fly later.
Gary
Gary is spot on. Been there, with the retreat having become untenable. Scary as can be cuz down in that terrain IFR is not an option. Opinion -
Not disagreeing with any of the recent comments but as a student on a x-c if I remember right, I had to be signed off and the instructor wanted to be involved in all go/no go decisions.
Unless this was unsanctioned.......
That's what I wonder. Was this under the supervision of his instructor or did he just go off on his own.
He would have to make it through Thompson pass and Tahneta Pass on a day with some pretty crummy weather.
I just have a hard time thinking a instructor thought that was a good idea in those conditions.
Sometimes student pilot in Alaska refers to somebody that has been flying a long time but never finished their private rating. The agency reports the highest rating you have, and if a student pilot certificate is obtained, you are forever a student pilot until you pass a checkride of some sort.
Which is to say, anytime it says student pilot in a news report, you don't know if they have 2000 hours or 20 hours and whether they are actively working on a rating overseen by an instructor or whether they are part of the 'uncertificated pilot' population that operates as if they have a rating they don't actually have.
So unless somebody has knowledge of the individual and his situation, pondering the flight instructor interaction in this event may not really be relevant. Or it may. I did not know the gentleman in question, though I do feel for him during this flight and for his remaining family. Sad deal.
With respect from the FAA Airmen database -
Certificates
STUDENT PILOT
Certificates Description
Certificate: STUDENT PILOT
Date of Issue: 7/26/2021
Limits:
CARRYING PASSENGERS IS PROHIBITED.
Gary
One other point: The FAA is woefully slow in issuing “permanent” certificates these days. So, it’s possible the gent had a “temporary” Private Pilot certificate in his pocket. Certificate action isnt noted in FAA database till they get around to issuing the plastic.
And, yes, a student pilots logbook must be endorsed for solo flights by an authorized instructor. BUT, it’s up to the CFI to endorse the limitations on that solo endorsement.
MTV
With no specific application to this accident, I can offer a point of view from when I was a new pilot. My instructors never told me anything about mountain flying or mountain pass flying. That topic wasn't important to pass my check ride. It was my mentors and pilot friends who took the time to explain things like mountain winds, approaching a pass slowly with 2 notches of flaps, being prepared for bad weather, and to EXPECT to do a 180* turn. It was a few years later, in the company of Tom Wardleigh, that I was schooled on face bender canyon turns up against the face of a real mountain. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I was or how gracefully Tom could demonstrate them. We should all take time to be mentors to new pilots. Encourage good planning, good judgement, and good training.
An old saying...."think about the going out before the coming in" (from Jack Flanders). Can't recall how many times I've suggested that to others only to be met by a 40 mile stare. Always looking ahead never back apparently until it's there.
Gary
That made me smile when you mentioned Tom. I did my primary flight training with Tom Wardleigh, and because he knew my goals as a pilot included lots of mountain flying, that's exactly what we did. I was incredibly fortunate to receive such training from the earliest stages, and from someone that had the breadth of experience that Tom had.
Our dual cross country was from ANC to Seldovia, then to Seward, and back to ANC. For my solo cross country he had me fly from ANC to Gulkana, then to Talkeetna before returning to Anchorage. I can't thank him enough for stretching me like that as a student pilot!
So how do we stop the cycle of new pilots killing themselves? CFI's have only so much time to teach the basics of flying, mostly because pilots are cheap or just don't have the money for extra training. Sounds like this student owned his own plane. It is not uncommon for student pilots to be flying for an extra year or two before they get around to getting a PPL. If he is flying out of Sutton basically every flight is a mountain flight. I was talking with a friend about how to help new pilots learn safe off field techniques (avoiding/breaking bad You Tube and STOL comp techniques) We could set up a 5 strip course and video the pilots, then review/teach over moose burgers latter. Hopefully we get it set up next spring. Lots of good books and information on mountain flying, but reading is not like doing. I was able to take help a low time pilot bring his plane over to Valdez early this year on a nice day. It was a flight of two going over, we could have gone high but instead we flew the passes as if we only had 100 ft of clearance, showed how to inspect a pass and set up for early turn out, went through both Portage pass and Thompson pass, Came over into the Knik on the way home. Basic stuff for many of us but not for a low time pilot. That is a pretty simple way to help new pilots get a handle on flying in the mountains. Now the hard issue! How do we teach them to fly in the scud?? Just saying don't do it is like telling 17 year olds not to have sex or drink. It is a advanced skill that requires much more knowledge of aircraft engine management because you have to troubleshoot while still keeping you head outside the plane. Just going IFR is often not an option ( I have gotten ice buildup at 1,300 ft just trying to get to Valdez in May) Maybe a hanger meeting to just talk about some of the issues they don't write about. If everyone can grab a new pilot or two yearly and spend some time with them we may save some lives. My CFI buddy spent 10 hours with me this spring trying be beat the proper operation of a Cessna 180 on floats into my head, so what go's around comes around. Just pontification on a crappy day, need to refill the coffee cup.
Be safe
DENNY
I have been fortunate to fly with several long time CFIs in Anchorage that have set me up for success so far. I was taught good habits, many of which you outline, but there's only so many things you can do in your 40-60 hours before getting that license. You touched on it, but one thing I think I could have done better in training is actually flying in lower visibility days. I think often CFIs are reticent to go out on days with 3-8 miles vis because they are being risk averse. And I don't blame them, students are trying to kill them all the time and I wouldn't want to add visibility to the list. But going out on a crappy day with an instructor would have made my first time flying in 1-2 miles vis a little less shocking. The other side of this is that we don't generally want people to get used to, at low hours, flying in super bad conditions in rough terrain but clearly they're going to anyway based on this latest and the Portage Pass accident.
However we probably also have a lot of young CFIs out there that likely don't have too much experience in the scud and the crud, so maybe not have the blind leading the blind? Man, I just don't know.
First step is to get the new pilot's head out of the cockpit and ahead of the airplane. Really plan the route prior to flight. Note WX (forecast air temps, winds aloft, dew points, cloud bases, reported or forecast obscurations for visibility), and especially expected terrain elevations enroute, and for the point of departure if returning is likely. If the forecast or pilot reports say for example broken to overcast at 2000, and the terrain approaches, meets, or exceeds that then expect some challenges. Note expected timing of flight versus needed course changes...like when to expect a valley or mountain turn when airborne. This is just some but there's way more.
Scud flying course? Like MVFR or down to a mile in Class G? Before I'd suggest doing that type of aviating I'd learn how to determine visibility and distance from clouds or ground and obstacles in flight. Pre-GPS it took some forward reference versus airframe component (like top of cowling to object slant angle = distance) at a given AGL, or time to reach a terrain feature (like at a mile a minute ground speed) and therefore flight visibility distance at a given airspeed. Now with some GPS' it's a matter of pointing a chosen distance extended heading line (say 3 miles ahead on the GPS screen) and determine if its expected end over terrain can be visually seen ahead. Also lateral distance can be estimated via a chosen distance legend on the display.
The problem is not all ground is flat like Nebraska (even rivers rise and fall). Rising and descending terrain/waterways complicate things in poor weather. Keeping a desired distance AGL, speed expected (both ground and air), and aircraft orientation becomes hard work especially in marginal visibility with several course changes over uneven terrain in wind. It really becomes soft IFR, but without adequate panel gauges and proficiency in their use it's not the place for the unexperienced to be to begin with.
Enough, Gary
This has been a concern for ages. It took Duane Cole an extra year to release "VFR tips" while he waited for just the right conditions to film reduced visibility without it getting too risky. A 40 hr course can't accomodate that. Were we more immersed in flying back then? More likely to have ridden right seat through the scud before doing it solo? Now we know just how many minutes it takes to get back from the airport to soccer practice.
What's a go-around?
I am calling BS on this.
As instructors we need to hold the line on training, and spend the time to teach students the tools they need. Maybe not skills to the level of professional pilots, but enough that they have the knowledge to get themselves to a safe landing when weather moves in.
One thing we can do is turn off the GPS and make people learn to navigate by paper charts in marginal weather so they have to keep situational awareness, and as said before calculate time/distance visibility.
I am on shift in Gulkana, and was out flying during the search for the champ. Sad deal, but we were told the pilot had less than 100 hours, that was second hand and have not been able to verify.
The plane made it through the pass, but not out of the mountains. The weather was terrible, we were being careful where we went, even during the search. I did not make it to some of the places I was supposed to go due to low wx, including important parts going to a mine.
Reality is that no one is immune, and weather can sucker you. The more training you can give folks in non-gps low weather the better, even if it is only to show people that they should not be out in it.
Best wishes to the family. Will be tough for for them- the wife came through our office and seemed like a wonderful lady.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Can I assume there was a road somewhere either below or nearby to land on?
Gary
Reportedly the plane was 300 yards from the Richardson Highway.
He might have been trying to make it to the airport that is not far from there next to the highway... sometimes we push to avoid highway landings. But who knows.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
For my money, I doubt any amount of training would have prevented this accident. This was a terrible decision, and sadly it seems many aviation related decisions are still personality related. That leads to things like this. From what I've seen and heard of this, no reasonable person would be out in weather like that - and especially not in an area like that. One thing we have to admit in aviation is that our area of interest has an overrepresentation of "strong" personalities. That is to say, a lot of us are butt heads. Not you of course - but me and a lot of other pilots. We've all seen them. They're going to make decisions guided by personality and some of them are going to pay for it.
I doubt abandoning GPS moving map, terrain depiction, and ADS-B traffic displays with a forced reversion to paper charts would help pilots make better decisions. Would you require car driving students to demonstrate carb tickling, manual choke use, or even hand cranking before they qualified to drive their modern computer controlled cars? Would you rather share the highway with a driver head-down reading a map or with one head-up listening to GPS guidance?
I would advocate that all students should understand all the tools at their disposal. If the aircraft has TAWS, synthetic vision, NEXRAD etc teach them to integrate that information with what is seen out of the windows.
I was flying long before GPS and have navigated airplanes and gliders on cross country flight with paper charts. No way I would give up my GPS moving map to go back to that, nor would I expect a student to.
The weather in Valdez may have been good. I haven’t heard one way or the other. It’s common for mountain passes to have different weather on different sides. How to deal with it is what’s in question, and with respect to this accident? We don’t know that it’s applicable. It’s just a conversation. https://weathercams.faa.gov/cameras/...s/camera/10373
Last edited by stewartb; 07-20-2022 at 02:42 PM.
When you were a student you learned without all the modern conveniences, as did a lot of us. Now we are more experienced we appreciate these modern devices but don't depend on them. We also know how to fly without them. The newer students never flew an airplane without the modern devices, so have nothing to fall back on. There are so many of these devices in most training airplanes and, a majority of the instructors also learned to fly in these same airplanes. They too do not understand how to fly with a basic no radio panel with nothing more than a slip ball as an assist. For the past several decades the FAA has pushed IFR and radio use with the idea that all new students are striving to be airline pilots. Along the way basic airmanship has fallen by the wayside. When I took my private flight test, the most sophisticated flight aid I had to demonstrate was to track a leg of an Adcock range on a low frequency battery powered receiver (Airboy Jr. Anyone remember that one?). Times have changed, basic airmanship has suffered.
I'm sorry this fellow didn't make it to his destination. Alaska is a tough place when the conditions are not perfect.
NX1PA
I know we are always trying to help new folks interested in flying. I learned with paper charts and a watch. I wouldn't trade that knowledge for anything. I use a gps now but always have charts with me because in a non electric airplane you never know when the AAs are going to die.
IMHO I think you need 100+ hrs before you should be allowed to buy a gps. You need to understand the basic skill. Kinda like a woodworker who can't read a ruler, Ha, try to find one of those today too
Glenn
"Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
Valid points if discussing how well a pilot will cope after loss of an advanced avionics system. I fail to see the relevance to decision making while the advanced system is still fully functional.
If you use paper charts you'd better have two because the one you are using may get sucked out the window (or under the door as in my PA-28 ). If you are using a GPS based moving map better have more than one in case the primary fails. There is no reason to revert to paper charts unless GPS constellation is jammed or unavailable for some other reason.
I like redundancy. I have 3 SBAS (WAAS) GPS receivers in the panel, another in my Android tablet, and yet another in my Android phone. Never had a paper sectional chart in the new airplane.
Neither paper charts, nor the knowledge of how to use one, will contribute to sound decision making in deteriorating weather. Unfortunately quite a few of us improved our decision making by getting away with making a few bad ones. We need to pass on that hard won experience but I don't see reverting to use of paper charts as being a useful part of that.
Last edited by frequent_flyer; 07-20-2022 at 04:10 PM.
FWIW, I agree with both Glenn and Frequent. I think to truly comprehend what the electronic goodies tell us, it helps to have an understanding of what it is that they're computing. And that is best derived from practice with paper chart, pencil and paper, and E6B.
I’ll take my GPS in poor weather any day over my paper chart. (Yes, I have both and can use them). I would imagine neither will help when you’re scared and can’t see where you’re going in mountainous terrain. It’s probable that a poor decision at some point contributed to this accident, I’m just sorry the young man had to pay with his life.
The most important thing in the airplane is the pilot's recognition of his limits and the ability to make good decisions and then stick to them. Without that, all the other stuff is useless.
My two cents.
At the University, I tried to get students out (generally after they'd completed their Private Certificate) in marginal weather at least once on a low level VFRish flight. This was northern Minnesota, so no mountains or passes nearby, but a mile and a half visibility provides an "interesting" perspective that many if not most budding pilots typically don't get in primary training.
We'd take off from the uncontrolled field (G airspace to 699 agl), and boogie up to the NE. No towers that direction. The entire program was predicated on being able to pop up IFR if need be. Never had to, but that was part of the plan.
I'd get them ten or fifteen miles out, have them do some maneuvering, all low level, then change the page on the PFD and MFD, to as best I could, simulate a failure. The look on their face was always interesting, to say the least. And, predictably, they would do nothing....nada. Just stare at the instruments, which were dead. After an appropriate interval to see if they'd figure it out, I'd gently suggest they take a look at the whiskey compass..... Point was, to START doing something, deliberately, not hastily. "Okay, there's a river down there. What direction is the water flowing?". What river might that be? If we were to follow that river, where would it take us if we go upstream? How about downstream?" Etc.
Point was to get them to start THINKING about their predicament. Many if not most people will vapor lock initially. So, the idea was to get them to start thinking, and develop a logical plan. Then execute the plan. This was done in the local area, so most of them knew the area fairly well, but I pointed out that even in strange country, there are features you can use.....even if you can only see a mile or so.
Initially, "management" was a little concerned that I was training them to fly in lousy weather. But, every one of these kids I did this with noted at the conclusion of the flight that it was the scariest thing they'd done in a plane, and they really didn't want to go there inadvertently on their own. That's when I pointed out that there ARE mountains, towers, etc out there in places, and scud running can get ugly fast.
My theory was that pilots talk about flying in lousy weather, but most don't ever really see what the belly of the beast looks like. Even doing it in flat country gives them perspective so they can use their imagination as to what that looks like in the mountains. And, this wasn't a map reading excercise....I never bothered with a chart. Keeping the airplane right side up and headed straight is enough of a challenge initially.
I sure wish someone had introduced me to crap weather before I got myself into it and had to figure it out by my self.
But, as noted it can be hard to get this done in most flight training environments. All our planes were IFR capable, and popping up was easy and safe in that environment if need be.
And, mountains, passes, etc can be an entirely different world. There you are truly dancing with the Devil....... I hope I never get myself in one of those deals again.
It does come down to decision making. And, that was what I was trying to instill in students: Start developing decisions, GOOD decisions soon, then execute those decisions after they're carefully thought out. Then, SLOW IT DOWN. As in pull the power back a bit, lower some flaps, configure the airplane to turn if you need to. Etc.
MTV
My GPS experience with moving maps or sim'ed terrain with an airplane flying ahead in the middle is very limited. But I can see where all that plastic could lead a pilot into a dead end in unfamiliar territory. If they see the ground-terrain and their position from a crow's view it might briefly become an Alfred E. Newman moment - "What, me worry?"
Gary
Take a paper chart and, by some magic of technology, put a moving airplane on it that always shows your current position and heading. Would that increase or decrease your navigation workload compared to a standard paper chart?
Now let's say the terrain shown on that magic chart could change color to red if you were low enough to hit it. Would would you prefer to read the contour lines on the chart and compare them to current altitude? Assuming you were actually in the pass you thought you were in.
If there is a problem with modern flight deck displays it may be that it's difficult to take in all the information that is available. It takes familiarity and discipline to extract and process the information that is needed at any given time.
I admitted unfamiliarity with GPS displays so can't argue for them. I can argue for keeping the eyes out of the cockpit with occasional confirmation of chart position. I eventually used WAC charts almost exclusively for cross country as too much detail was a distraction I didn't need. I visually memorized most of Alaska to a degree. But, I'd also mark a course on the chart with critical elevation features on a new or infrequently flown route. Now as noted it all turns warning colors (depending on user selectable AGL/terrain) so maybe that's a good reason to not proceed unless you know what your dealing with.
Gary
The Terrain feature in a Garmin 795 GPS is an invaluable asset when scud running in hills/mountians. You can tell if you have enough altitude to pick your way through the Brooks or any other mountain range with a simple glance. It does not tell you what the weather is but it helps knowing when to turn around. Pick a point and the GPS will tell you exactly how far out you are, look for point as you approach, once you see it look at distance to arrival and you will know what your visibility/distance should look like. The key is not to mount them in the panel if possible Keep them as high as possible so you can use peripheral vision to avoid any rocky stuff. I am old and did time with Marine Recon and Army straight leg units so I can and have came flown with only a chart, it is not that hard especially if you have been to the area at least once. Several good points have been brought up, the question remains how do we get new pilots trained?
DENNY
A G3X is a pretty impressive tool. If that fails? My iPhone with Garmin Pilot is also a very impressive tool. I haven’t owned a paper chart in years but I always have a current version in my pocket. FWIW, for the “paper is better” crowd, please send your replies (reply to all) via standard US Mail. We’ll wait.
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