Oops, darn it...

[Waldo M]

I have my first bird with a header tank, and don't feel as informed about it as I would like even after reading lots here on sc.org.

Since you have a PA-11, here's a little more info regarding the header tank installed on that airplane. At least as Piper built it.

Keep in mind that the stated capacity of the main fuel tank is given as 17 U.S. gallons. The header tank was manufactured by Piper, so I assume they are all of similar capacity although I have never seen that capacity published anywhere.

The last time we restored our PA-11, the fuel system was completely drained and dried. After we put the airplane back together, 3 gallons of fuel were added. The tail was lifted and the airplane was placed in a level attitude for a few minutes to ensure that the header tank was full. [The header tank picks up it's fuel from a "T" on the bottom of the fuel gauge.] The airplane was put back in the three point attitude and the fuel flex hose was disconnected at the carburetor. Fuel was drained until the flow started to diminish and then the line was reconnected. Fuel was added from a pump with an accurate meter until the tank was full. It took 18.1 gallons to fill it. I consider that the usable fuel capacity of this particular airplane. I wouldn't take that figure as gospel unless you do the same test on your airplane. All bets are off if your fuel system has been modified with an extra fuel tank or in some other way.

Incidentally, we calibrated an 11" generic fuel dripstick while we refilled the tank. If you do that test, you may want to take the opportunity to do that.

[cubdriver2]

I calibrated a paint fuel stick on my Pa11 20+ years ago on 800x4 tires. Any thing under 11 gallons didn't register on the stick

Glenn

[BC12D-4-85]

Same deal for me as Glenn. I ended up marking the wing root fuel tubes tail up for floats and tail down in 6 gallon increments.

Gary

[mam90]

Sad deal. RIP.

https://www.wesh.com/article/planes-...orida/43236981

[Farmboy]

Yes tragic. I hope the fatalities are limited to 2 as stated. I read rumors of possibly more.

The track on the Cherokee showed it was on its 4th lap downwind doing touch and goes at the field after coming over from the coast.

No info on the cub.


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[cubdriver2]

https://youtu.be/CAVc19tlWMo

Glenn

[BC12D-4-85]

Thanks Glenn. I sent it to several of my pilot friends that were rated at Brown's.

Gary

[frequent_flyer]

https://youtu.be/CAVc19tlWMo

I found it surprising that the commentator suggested ADS-B In for the seaplanes but did not strongly suggest they should have a VHF radio.

I'm not saying radio would have prevented the accident but, without it, the J3 crew may not have even have known which runway was active at Winter Haven.

[skywagon8a]

https://youtu.be/CAVc19tlWMo

Glenn

Thanks Glenn. That pretty much jibes with what I suspected. The low wing airplane .... declaring short approach ..... left turn with the CFI in the right seat with his vision obscured.... letting down into the J-3's path ..... the J-3 looking straight ahead, not up into the sun. A sad day.

I was instructing in a Cherokee doing landings at the busy NORDO OWD airport landing east. When on short final I spotted the outboard half of the wing of a Seabee sticking out from beneath the plane. We went around. When we landed the chief pilot who had seen the whole thing had the Seabee pulled to one side of the runway giving him a talking to about landing straight in without following a traffic pattern. Low wings and high wings don't mix in a traffic pattern very well. The Seabee never saw us at all.

[aktango58]

I found it surprising that the commentator suggested ADS-B In for the seaplanes but did not strongly suggest they should have a VHF radio.

I'm not saying radio would have prevented the accident but, without it, the J3 crew may not have even have known which runway was active at Winter Haven.

I find it annoying that even AOPA has bought into ADSB as the 'be all end all' of traffic avoidance.

The unapproved iPad technology with any of the pilot apps will show you way more traffic than ADSB- it picks up transponders!!

Also, there seems to be lots of chatter about NORDO ops, but how about the instructor making laps with short approachs? Seems to me that seaplane base is well used, so the instructor should have knowledge that the little float planes will be moving in these areas at these altitudes; if one is flying abnormal approach procedures it would seem a good idea to be aware that your approach might intercept a well used flight altitude and route.

Sad deal, sorry to all involved. Hope we can learn something from the.

[frequent_flyer]

The unapproved iPad technology with any of the pilot apps will show you way more traffic than ADSB- it picks up transponders!!

The iPad has no built in capability to receive a transponder, 1090 ES, or UAT. It must rely on some other hardware receiver, not just an app, to display any traffic.

A mode C transponder transmits no position information. If only the raw squawk data is received the best a receiver can do is estimate range from signal strength and, if equipped with a directional antenna system, a very approximate azimuth. (ZAON PCAS and FLARM both provided range only capability before ADS-B)

Position data for transponder only aircraft can be derived from air traffic control radar (as range and bearing) and can be included in the TIS uplink. Still requires more than an iPad to receive and display that data.

[algonquin]

The ASD-B has always been about control and tracking not safety. There are several better ways to show traffic, cheaper and simpler than the ADS-B with two different freq.’s , ant. Locations and in and out receivers . Too much freedom with people flying around the country and no tracking.

[BC12D-4-85]

For my non-electric PA-11 I had an ICOM handheld radio with compatible PTT and two place intercom with 9v battery. Not sure what might have helped in this case but they are available reasonably priced.

Gary

[mvivion]

Yes, I’m amazed they haven’t had separation issues in past, with Nordic seaplanes coming and going right under the traffic pattern of Winter Haven. Sad deal in any case. That seaplane base is a busy place at times.

MTV

[RedOwlAirfield]

Too much freedom with people flying around the country and no tracking.

I respect your right to your opinion, but I can't imagine a scenario where I could agree with a statement that starts "too much Freedom." Can't imagine such a thing. Sorry but as someone who grew up in a military family and spent a lot of time with the (US) military myself, that statement really gets under my skin. You have the right to that opinion and certainly to state it openly without recourse, and I will defend with my life those rights. You're not a bad guy for having that opinion or stating it. But "Too much freedom" just doesn't sit right with me.

I wish I didn't feel compelled to state that.

[SJ]

We’ve debated adsb ad nauseam. No need to rehash that on this thread.

sj

[cubdriver2]

For my non-electric PA-11 I had an ICOM handheld radio with compatible PTT and two place intercom with 9v battery. Not sure what might have helped in this case but they are available reasonably priced.

Gary

I have an icom in both my Cubs with external coat hangers. They work great, maybe too great. Problem in busy Unicom airspace is your picking up chatter from 80 miles away. It gets stepped on, import jargon, and sometimes unable to understand any of it being all mixed up.
After awhile your listening but really don't hear anything.

Glenn

[frequent_flyer]

I respect your right to your opinion, but I can't imagine a scenario where I could agree with a statement that starts "too much Freedom."

Perhaps there ought to be a very prominent SARCASM emoji. His meaning was clear to me.

[flybynite]

I put a Stratux receiver in our J3. It is useful in the pattern, but, with the lack of space in the cockpit, it can also be a distraction. Handheld Icom also. Seldom talk, mostly listen.

[tempdoug]

just thinking? i wonder how many car accidents there is every day in this country. going home a few days ago, met a old guy coming down the 4 lane highway the wrong way. he didnt have a clue what he was doing. being alert is a big thing.

[bcone1381]

Maybe we've gotten to point where we depend on, spend time watching, and believe it makes us safe to give attention to an inside cockpit gadget for traffic avoidance, while compromising attention we have to See and Avoid traffic.

[BC12D-4-85]

I have an icom in both my Cubs with external coat hangers. They work great, maybe too great. Problem in busy Unicom airspace is your picking up chatter from 80 miles away. It gets stepped on, import jargon, and sometimes unable to understand any of it being all mixed up.
After awhile your listening but really don't hear anything.

Glenn

Up here, they (who's them?) have started partitioning congested airspace into smaller discrete areas via unique CTAF frequencies. Airports have them already, but areas like National Parks and popular recreational spots get them assigned. Where you live there''s more of everything so maybe that's not feasible due to a lack of available frequencies.

Gary

[DENNY]

I rely on Look/See/Radio, not always that good!!! A white Cub/Cessna will just fade away over snow even as I am looking at it. Having at least a radio would have allowed both aircraft to communicate position.
DENNY

[RaisedByWolves]

Surprised the airport didn’t have right traffic so they don’t overfly the seaplane base pattern


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[skywagon8a]

Maybe we've gotten to point where we depend on, spend time watching, and believe it makes us safe to give attention to an inside cockpit gadget for traffic avoidance, while compromising attention we have to See and Avoid traffic.

Maybe? I've been preaching that for 50+ years. The influx of "glass" cockpits has increased the dependency upon the inside. Some of it can be blamed on the FAA when they started requiring the use of instruments before solo. That pushed the new pilots inside the cockpit rather than looking outside.

[CubCruiser]

Maybe? I've been preaching that for 50+ years. The influx of "glass" cockpits has increased the dependency upon the inside. Some of it can be blamed on the FAA when they started requiring the use of instruments before solo. That pushed the new pilots inside the cockpit rather than looking outside.

Instrument training is not required pre-solo.

[frequent_flyer]

Instrument training is not required pre-solo.

Not required but is recommended. May I suggest a review of Chapter 3 of the "Airplane Flying Handbook" which includes a description of the "integrated" or "composite" method of flight instruction.

"When introducing basic flight maneuvers to a beginning pilot, it is recommended that the “integrated” or “composite” method offlight instruction be used. This means the use of outside references and flight instruments to establish and maintain desired flight attitudes and airplane performance. When beginning pilots use this technique, they achieve a more precise and competent overall piloting ability. Although this method of airplane control may become second nature with experience, the beginning pilot needs to make a determined effort to master the technique. In all cases, a pilot’s visual skills need to be sufficiently developed for long-term, safe, and effective aircraft control. "

ref - https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...04_afh_ch3.pdf

[mam90]

If you want to know how the up and coming pilots feel, try reading the comments associated with the AOPA video. Some of the outrage expressed that an airplane is allowed to operate without a radio and ADS-B is a sign of what’s likely to come, eventually.

[mvivion]

For me, it’s difficult to understand the apparent acceptance of overlapping traffic patterns between the airport and Brown’s. I wonder if they’ve had discussions to try to establish better separation.

There is no way I’d want to work landings and takeoffs right under a busy student training pattern. Maybe they have tried to sort this out, but regardless of see and avoid, ADS-B or any other safeguard, that just seems like an accident waiting to happen, and I’m betting the attorneys are lining up.

MTV

[frequent_flyer]

For me, it’s difficult to understand the apparent acceptance of overlapping traffic patterns between the airport and Brown’s. I wonder if they’ve had discussions to try to establish better separation.

Sometimes the obvious doesn't seem obvious without the wisdom of hindsight. 2 killed in a midair between a Robinson and a PA-28 at KCHD about 2 years ago. Overlapping traffic patterns had worked fine until the PA-28 did a short approach. Many years earlier 4 killed in a midair at P48 when a J3 on downwind was hit by a glider doing the last loop of an aerobatic demo ride. The glider was in the "box" but the box and downwind overlapped.

I have refused to tow when I didn't like a conflicting traffic situation. Another tow pilot jumped in and carried on. No accident so I suppose I was being over cautious, or maybe not.

[stewartb]

Overlapping patterns???

[algonquin]

Sorry for the confusion, my statement was sarcasm. Anyway after flying 24 years in the Army I’ve seen some busy wild places. Most of the time there were fields for training and fields for daily ops. My best guess was we were all on the same sheet of music, so min. Conflicts. There were entry and exit points, alt.’s published, and patterns. Much easier to pull off when everyone has the game plan and adhere’s to it. The Browns run a good operation and truly sad when something like this happens.

[mam90]

No accident so I suppose I was being over cautious, or maybe not.

That’s the problem when evaluating safety- but IMO it’s important to remember that the absence of an accident does not define safety. I’ve said no plenty of times when others went ahead and made the flight. In all but one they made it just fine, but it didn’t mean it was safe.

[Farmboy]

I just got back from a 4 day trip down through FL and back, and the density level of traffic in FL is quite amazing.
I didn’t watch the video(s) as I prefer to have my own interpretation, but AOPA seems to be a bit lost these days if they are jumping on the “YouTube accident review” wagon. We already have yahoos doing that.

The polk school Cherokee came over to shoot touch and goes at winter haven….. because it’s too congested at home?


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[CubCruiser]

...The polk school Cherokee came over to shoot touch and goes at winter haven….. because it’s too congested at home?
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Yes, now that Amazon is a major tenant at Lakeland-Linder, pattern work forces them to move elsewhere. If things keep progressing as they are, I suspect Sun n Fun will be pushed out in due time. It has already caused modifications of the layout for the show.

I transit this Alert area nearly everyday to get to a quiet grass strip. I do so at 500' or lower given the extreme amount of training traffic above every day. It's not uncommon to have 7 training aircraft in the pattern at my home airport extending the pattern more than the 3.2 miles that is the diameter of the Class Delta. A poor situation for developing consistency and saving the student time and money. So many of us travel away from "home" to get the job done.

Daryl

[mvivion]

I just got back from a 4 day trip down through FL and back, and the density level of traffic in FL is quite amazing.
I didn’t watch the video(s) as I prefer to have my own interpretation, but AOPA seems to be a bit lost these days if they are jumping on the “YouTube accident review” wagon. We already have yahoos doing that.

The polk school Cherokee came over to shoot touch and goes at winter haven….. because it’s too congested at home?


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Before you condemn AOPA for being "Lost" by posting these videos, perhaps you might want to WATCH one or two of them first. These are not Bronco Dude or Dipstick Dan videos. In fact, the idea is to get some RATIONAL and non accusatory INFORMATION out there, instead of the other videos. Richard McSpadden is very knowledgeable and offers very carefully considered brief explanations of what happened, without casting blame. I think they are very well done, and every one I've watched to date provides some very basic (and public) information that the news media didn't cover. That extra bit of coverage, by a pilot, is often important to understanding the scenario. Personally, at first I was concerned that this wasn't a good idea, but after watching a few of these, they are well done, very respectful to the parties involved, and offer some idea of the scenario, from the perspective of a pilot, as opposed to the news media.

Secondly, the comment about the Polk Warrior going to Winter Haven because their home drome is congested? As a CFI, I always try to get "students" (even "students" who hold an ATP) to new airports with different procedures/patterns/problems. That's all part of comprehensive instruction. Operating in a congested environment is also important for training, but a variety of environments is essential for well rounded pilots in my opinion.

Others have commented about the "short approach" by the Warrior crew. Looking at the evidence, I thought that instructor was doing a great job encouraging the student to fly fairly tight patterns. In any case, none of those patterns they flew were what I'd call a "short approach", but that's me. Unfortunately, that may not have been the best environment to fly tight patterns, but....

MTV

[Steve Pierce]

I didn’t watch the video(s) as I prefer to have my own interpretation, but AOPA seems to be a bit lost these days if they are jumping on the “YouTube accident review” wagon. We already have yahoos doing that.

Watch the video Peter, I think Richard did an excellent job as he did on the B17/P63 mid air.

I am really surprised at some of the comments here. I wonder if the commenters watched the same video I did.

As for ADS-B, I find it to be a useful tool, not my only tool but a tool.

[Waldo M]

I think Richard McSpadden does an excellent job with these accident reviews. He makes no presumptions; he simply looks at situations that may have been a contributing factor and discusses strategies to avoid them. His observations are worth consideration.

When AOPA presented their first one, I had the same reaction as Farmboy before I watched it. In the past, I had started to watch videos from other "analysts" and shut them off before I was 60 seconds into them. After that, I never clicked on them in the first place. I only played Mr. McSpadden's first accident analysis because I had met the man and respected him.

I will say the the multitude of comments after the piece reveal that there are too many pilots out there that are truly clueless. They reveal an over reliance on and a misunderstanding of technology as well as an ignorance of the aviation world outside of their small slice of experience.

I don't have an aversion to tech tools and in fact use them when flying an airplane with no electrical system. Like most, I always monitor a portable comm radio and use an iPad, ForeFlight app, and ADS B receiver when flying into an area that will likely have some traffic. All that is great stuff, but none of it indicates all the traffic in the area. Thats why the "glass" in the cockpit that I constantly monitor is the windshield.

[aktango58]

The iPad has no built in capability to receive a transponder, 1090 ES, or UAT. It must rely on some other hardware receiver, not just an app, to display any traffic.

Most apps have reception from the GPS, which gives lots of interesting data. I am not the tech guru, but I can tell you from experience that when Alaska Airlines used to burn up my back side into Sitka the very expensive FAA funded Capstone box would not indicate their location, but my iPad would show them every time.

On to our actual discussion...

Between sun in a pilot's eyes, distractions, (two planes flown by students learning new things), and some bad luck this is a sad deal. As a pilot and instructor my true interest is how can we reduce this type of accident?

While we sometimes seem to think aviation is shrinking, we are seeing an influx in people doing quick schools with the desire to get in on the airlines hiring frenzy. Get hours, get ticket, get hired. What is worse is as urban sprawl continues, little airports are going away and neighbors are upping the complaints- forcing more restricted airspace use which compacts everyone into a tighter space.

As stated prior, if you read many comments on the YouTube, or on the Facebook forums it becomes startling how much basic knowledge is missing from so many. Worse, lots of them don't realize and probably don't care they don't know.

Bottom line for me is the intent to find the brightest lights I can find, make them flash, look outside, glance on occasion at any traffic data I might get inside, ask passengers to look for traffic and point it out, and just remember that even if I am paranoid, it does not mean that someone out there won't try to run me over again!!

FYI: I hate flying down the highway corridor from the north into Anchorage on a nice day. so many pilots busy finishing up getting their electronics tuned in and just not watching! Out of I think three trips last summer I had near misses on two, one of them we were watching the Bonanza for a long ways come our way and I kept edging away and it never saw us. mountains on one side and restricted on the other!

[frequent_flyer]

Most apps have reception from the GPS, which gives lots of interesting data. I am not the tech guru, but I can tell you from experience that when Alaska Airlines used to burn up my back side into Sitka the very expensive FAA funded Capstone box would not indicate their location, but my iPad would show them every time.

Perhaps it would help if you said what your iPad was actually connected to. A GPS receiver will provide nothing except information about your own aircraft's position and movement. If traffic positions were displayed there must have been something else involved.