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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2761

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak49flyer View Post
    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/0...-five.html?m=1 Anyone know any details on this? Pics look totally mangled...

    Holy Cow!!!!! That was a high energy crash.

  2. #2762
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak49flyer View Post
    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/0...-five.html?m=1 Anyone know any details on this? Pics look totally mangled...
    If that is supposed to be a PA-12, why does it have a spring Cessna landing gear?
    N1PA
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  3. #2763
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    A close call recently:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Was in IMC,

    MTV

  4. #2764

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    A close call recently:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Was in IMC,

    MTV
    Wow. Doesn't really get much closer than that.

  5. #2765
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    A close call recently:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Was in IMC,

    MTV
    Whoa! Miles of flat ground to the West, I've never seen an airliner turn east from BZN.

  6. #2766
    180Marty's Avatar
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    If that is supposed to be a PA-12, why does it have a spring Cessna landing gear?
    I saw one back in the 1980's that Dave Hendricks (lots of Alaska STC's) built and it had 170 Cessna gear. The owner's son owns it now and it is back on PA 18 style gear in Oklahoma. He has the PA 12 Facebook page.

  7. #2767
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    Whoa! Miles of flat ground to the West, I've never seen an airliner turn east from BZN.
    For curiosity, looking at Mike’s screen shot and using flight aware to check the flights tracking I noticed some anomaly’s….
    This equipment has no record of flying out of, or to for that matter BZN. ?
    The Delta flight # is a regularly scheduled flight from-to BZN.
    NO Irregular flight tracking for either.
    The depicted routing shows a southeast departure.
    Why the deviated flight track on the screen shot? Was there a GA in close proximity or just terrain. Wonder how close this flight actually was to terrain?
    ??

  8. #2768
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    Quote Originally Posted by jk View Post
    The depicted routing shows a southeast departure.
    Why the deviated flight track on the screen shot? Was there a GA in close proximity or just terrain. Wonder how close this flight actually was to terrain?
    ??
    Just from personal recollection, the Bridgers are high and approximately 7-8 miles from the runway. At 200 knots, it's not a lot of room. In the 70s, in crisp VFR, we often saw Frontier enter a left downwind between the mountains and the airport, but Northwest would never do that. I can't imagine an IFR departure heading towards the mountains. SE departure leads over a dip in the mountains and is normal.
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  9. #2769
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    A fellow who lives in the lower foothills of the Bridgers under that flight track actually saw the plane go over, in the flag. He’s a very experienced pilot, said all he could do is pray.

    MTV
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  10. #2770
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    Quote Originally Posted by jk View Post
    For curiosity, looking at Mike’s screen shot and using flight aware to check the flights tracking I noticed some anomaly’s….
    This equipment has no record of flying out of, or to for that matter BZN. ?
    The Delta flight # is a regularly scheduled flight from-to BZN.
    NO Irregular flight tracking for either.
    The depicted routing shows a southeast departure.
    Why the deviated flight track on the screen shot? Was there a GA in close proximity or just terrain. Wonder how close this flight actually was to terrain?
    ??
    May 12, 3:02 departure DL2690. N101DQ, Airbus 321
    BZN - ATL

    Was climbing through 7K as he turned back away from the ridge.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…

  11. #2771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    May 12, 3:02 departure DL2690. N101DQ, Airbus 321
    BZN - ATL

    Was climbing through 7K as he turned back away from the ridge.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…
    Shudder…. That ridge is 7500 feet at best.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  12. #2772
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    If interested look up the A321's EGPWS display and enabling procedure. Someday the equipment installed and cause for the route flown will be available.

    Gary
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  13. #2773
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    A close call recently:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Was in IMC,

    MTV
    I have never been to Bozeman, so this is just speculation on my part.
    This is the Bobkt Four Departure from Bozeman. https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2205/00059BOBKT.PDF
    Just for this discussion, I'm assuming this is what he was supposed to follow. The procedure calls for flying straight out heading 123* (runway heading?) to 4980' then direct (basically a straight line) to cross Japer at or above 8000' before turning to a track of 085*.

    It appears the left turn to 085* was initiated when passing the initial 4980' instead of climbing to "at or above 8000'" first. Then the terrain alerting system warned them of the obstruction which "woke" them up. Not pointing fingers, but sometimes even airline pilots have their heads where the sun doesn't shine. Perhaps there was a preflight nav system programming step missed? I never flew an Airbus, but it is possible the programming person just skipped one step. "Climb heading 123° to 4980, (this one) then direct to cross JAPER at or above 8000, then on track 085....."

    This reminds me of another similar incident which I've simplified here, on the west coast of South America during the 90s when an American Airlines B-757 was "cleared for an approach". Instead of following the safe route to the airport, the pilot punched in his "navigation keyboard" "direct to" the airport. In this case there were mountains between the plane and the airport. There were no survivors.

    A simple keystroke entry error in both cases.
    N1PA

  14. #2774
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I have never been to Bozeman, so this is just speculation on my part.
    This is the Bobkt Four Departure from Bozeman. https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2205/00059BOBKT.PDF
    Just for this discussion, I'm assuming this is what he was supposed to follow. The procedure calls for flying straight out heading 123* (runway heading?) to 4980' then direct (basically a straight line) to cross Japer at or above 8000' before turning to a track of 085*.

    It appears the left turn to 085* was initiated when passing the initial 4980' instead of climbing to "at or above 8000'" first. Then the terrain alerting system warned them of the obstruction which "woke" them up. Not pointing fingers, but sometimes even airline pilots have their heads where the sun doesn't shine. Perhaps there was a preflight nav system programming step missed? I never flew an Airbus, but it is possible the programming person just skipped one step. "Climb heading 123° to 4980, (this one) then direct to cross JAPER at or above 8000, then on track 085....."

    This reminds me of another similar incident which I've simplified here, on the west coast of South America during the 90s when an American Airlines B-757 was "cleared for an approach". Instead of following the safe route to the airport, the pilot punched in his "navigation keyboard" "direct to" the airport. In this case there were mountains between the plane and the airport. There were no survivors.

    A simple keystroke entry error in both cases.
    Pete, a friend here who is retired Boeing pilot told me he’s jumpseated many times in and out of BZN in buses. His THEORY is that possibly the pilot flying this leg programmed the route correctly, but had his/her heading bug set to a north heading. Then, when engaging the AP, selected heading bug instead of programmed route.

    Your theory sounds more logical, but I know nothing about Airbus systems in any case.

    In this case, the old story “A miss is as good as a mile” applies. That ridge they missed contains a lot of rock at 9000.

    MTV

  15. #2775
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    Gotta love ADS-B. The next hot internet topic might be you.

  16. #2776
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Pete, a friend here who is retired Boeing pilot told me he’s jumpseated many times in and out of BZN in buses. His THEORY is that possibly the pilot flying this leg programmed the route correctly, but had his/her heading bug set to a north heading. Then, when engaging the AP, selected heading bug instead of programmed route.

    Your theory sounds more logical, but I know nothing about Airbus systems in any case.

    In this case, the old story “A miss is as good as a mile” applies. That ridge they missed contains a lot of rock at 9000.

    MTV
    I too know nothing about Airbuses, but have a lot of Boing time. Your friend has a point. The pilot may have just tapped the wrong button after engaging the autopilot.
    N1PA

  17. #2777
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Gotta love ADS-B. The next hot internet topic might be you.
    ADS-B made no difference on this one, well covered by radar.

    But, your point is well taken. Down here, though, lots of radar too.

    MTV

  18. #2778

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    "News" has little real information for those of us wanting to learn and avoid the same. Who knows what/where/how?
    https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...d-plane-crash/

  19. #2779
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    Quote Originally Posted by salex View Post
    "News" has little real information for those of us wanting to learn and avoid the same. Who knows what/where/how?
    https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...d-plane-crash/
    Yeah, but the rescuers…..DAMN! “Tethered himself to his four wheeler and entered the river”. Some tough Hombre there!

    MTV
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  20. #2780
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    Talked to FAA QA guy coupe days ago and incident was ATC error.



    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Pete, a friend here who is retired Boeing pilot told me he’s jumpseated many times in and out of BZN in buses. His THEORY is that possibly the pilot flying this leg programmed the route correctly, but had his/her heading bug set to a north heading. Then, when engaging the AP, selected heading bug instead of programmed route.

    Your theory sounds more logical, but I know nothing about Airbus systems in any case.

    In this case, the old story “A miss is as good as a mile” applies. That ridge they missed contains a lot of rock at 9000.

    MTV

  21. #2781
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    whatever ATC did or ordered, the PIC screwed up. We (pilots) are not automatons, programmed by ATC. Two hundred people die on a ridge, it’s not ATC’s fault.

    MTV
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  22. #2782
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    EGPWS. Probably saved them.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  23. #2783

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    I thought I better chime in. That’s my screenshot above that has been shared. The blue dot was my location. He was definitely IFR in the soup. Ridge 2 miles east of my location is approximately 9,000 MSL. I’m fearless and it scared me to death!
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  24. #2784
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Pete, a friend here who is retired Boeing pilot told me he’s jumpseated many times in and out of BZN in buses. His THEORY is that possibly the pilot flying this leg programmed the route correctly, but had his/her heading bug set to a north heading. Then, when engaging the AP, selected heading bug instead of programmed route.

    Your theory sounds more logical, but I know nothing about Airbus systems in any case.

    In this case, the old story “A miss is as good as a mile” applies. That ridge they missed contains a lot of rock at 9000.

    MTV
    Small point, but the heading bug in an Airbus essentially reverts to aircraft heading after 60 seconds if the auto pilot is not in heading mode.

  25. #2785
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa11driver View Post
    Small point, but the heading bug in an Airbus essentially reverts to aircraft heading after 60 seconds if the auto pilot is not in heading mode.
    Good intel. I have no idea how all that magic works, and I still can’t see how that could get so far out of whack. A fellow I spoke with last night said he checked (somewhere) and that tail number supposedly hasn’t been to BZN in a month. Whatever that means. He’s saying the track is false……

    MTV
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  26. #2786

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    A fellow I spoke with last night said he checked (somewhere) and that tail number supposedly hasn’t been to BZN in a month. Whatever that means. He’s saying the track is false……

    MTV
    why do you bother to repeat crap like that, unnamed person, unnamed source, 'supposedly'. heretofore this was an interesting discussion
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  27. #2787
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    why do you bother to repeat crap like that, unnamed person, unnamed source, 'supposedly'. heretofore this was an interesting discussion
    Sorry I offended you.

    MTV

  28. #2788
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Good intel. I have no idea how all that magic works, and I still can’t see how that could get so far out of whack. A fellow I spoke with last night said he checked (somewhere) and that tail number supposedly hasn’t been to BZN in a month. Whatever that means. He’s saying the track is false……

    MTV
    Flight Aware shows N101DQ flying from Bozeman to Atlanta on May 12, departed at 3:05 MT. Looks like the track is credible.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There are three simple rules for making consistently smooth landings. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
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  29. #2789
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjohnson View Post
    Flight Aware shows N101DQ flying from Bozeman to Atlanta on May 12, departed at 3:05 MT. Looks like the track is credible.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yes, that was the source the track. It’s hard to believe a crew could make that big a screw up and the systems didn’t alert earlier. Then again, pilots are human and focus and determination can overcome most any electronics.

    MTV
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  30. #2790
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    It’s hard to believe a crew could make that big a screw up and the systems didn’t alert earlier.
    I worked on development of avionics systems for MD-11, MD-10, B777, B737NG and other types. Each had an avionics system that was advanced for it's day but all of them are hopelessly inadequate in terms of situation awareness compared to modern general aviation cockpits.

    Much has been written on "automation mode confusion". It will continue to kill crews and their passengers as long as pilots are prepared to blindly follow "the magenta line".
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  31. #2791
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    I'm inclined to believe our eyewitness (or ear-witness) on the ground who reports the airliner being two miles from the ridge.

  32. #2792
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Maybe that's why some crew bring their own nav devices?

    Gary
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  33. #2793
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I'm inclined to believe our eyewitness (or ear-witness) on the ground who reports the airliner being two miles from the ridge.
    Same here. But man, at 200 kts, to follow that track, there was some G happening.

    MTV

    MTV
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  34. #2794
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post

    Much has been written on "automation mode confusion". It will continue to kill crews and their passengers as long as pilots are prepared to blindly follow "the magenta line".
    In the early 70's, 73 I believe, Alaska Airlines 727 hit the mountain on the approach into Juneau. A lear, then a National Guard Twatter did it later in the 80's.

    The approach is a localizer/DME approach that utilized two DME's. Every crew made the same mistake- had the wrong DME fix reading in the cockpit. Most likely they were all on HOLD for the one, but the numbers showing in the display were for the correct one, but again the selector was set to hold.

    The fixes are only about 5 miles different, but that puts the rocks 100' above you instead of 1,000' below.

    Proper navigation management is not new. Even highly trained folks mess up. Build habits to check each detail when you have time. Maybe take an extra turn in a hold if needed.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  35. #2795
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    why do you bother to repeat crap like that, unnamed person, unnamed source, 'supposedly'. heretofore this was an interesting discussion
    Okay, tonight at the FAA RSAT meeting here in Bozeman, our Tower Chief was asked about this incident. He explained:

    Delta was told "turn left to 250 after takeoff" instead of "Turn RIGHT to 250 after takeoff". Pilot turned left. Tower saw the deviation on their radar, but Delta had already switched to Big Sky Departure. Tower got on the phone to Big Sky, and got it sorted in time.

    I'm guessing there were a LOT of bells and whistles going off in that cockpit though. Hard to believe that a two person crew would accept a left turn into terrain.....

    So, that's from the horse's mouth. No idea if the crew got chewed on, but I sure hope so. Controller was totally up front.

    MTV
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  36. #2796

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    I'm Always thankful for this thread. We are all human. Lots to learn and re-learn. We can brief the daylights out of the charts, but still lack the big picture, or loose the big picture with a simple distraction. or be led astray by something not quit right. like if ATC says "Turn Left heading 280."

    I could see myself following ATC's instructions.

    The pilot flying is hand flying in the soup. The pilot monitoring is not monitoring, rather is head is down doing the after take off check, raising the gear, raising the flaps,gets interrupted by ATC, spins the heading bug around for the Pilot flying, that gets confrimed by the pilot flying, now, where was I??? He follows the Flight director turning left. Oh yeah, the ATO checklist "gear up -flaps up" heading change, confirm the heading. The big buzzwords at my work right now are Verbalize Verhify Monitor...meaning Verbalize the new heading, verify the heading and monitor the outcome. Maybe I was Rushed, behind, seldom been there, mountains obscured by clouds, maybe a new crewmember, hungry, long day, mild fatigue.

    It's takes time and attention, which makes us a bit more fragile and prone to something like this. We are resiliant when we can screw up and catch it. This is a good reminder for me to slow down, and understand the big picture of the Cumulo-granite.
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  37. #2797

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    Good points but I think there is alot more to this story than left instead of right. His final departure course was to be close to 150, 250 would have put them way off course and the Bobcat 2 departure is almost straight out. Also odd his climb out as reported on the expensive version of flight radar was just 280fpm, odd gets odder.
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  38. #2798
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    "Charts? We don't need no stinkin' charts!"

    Gary
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  39. #2799
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    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  40. #2800
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    Hmmm? Bush wheels? Water ski attempt gone wrong? It looks remarkably intact for taking out some electric power lines.
    N1PA

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