Results 1 to 35 of 35

Thread: Electronic ignitions?

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like

    Electronic ignitions?

    Looking like I will need to replace my Mags soon. Any body running the electronic ignitions on there super cub? Thoughts? Brand? Performance?

    Thank you!

    Scott

  2. #2
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Certified or experimental?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like
    Certified super cub 150

  4. #4
    supercrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Smith Pond near Millinocket, Me
    Posts
    397
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have been researching that a little lately too for my exp.. I would probably go with the P-Mag but it's too pricey for me right now. Haven't looked too hard at the others.

  5. #5
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,238
    Post Thanks / Like
    What's wrong with your mags? Or are you just looking to change?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
    Thanks hangarmonkey thanked for this post
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like
    My engine is has been loosing power over the past year or so. Just really noticed it the other day! Lost about 100 rpms on climb out than I had been seeing. Its not swinging the prop to the rpms it should be. Just seems to be getting worse the more I fly it. the mags are Bendix and are 2010 models. Going to check timing soon and hope that is the problem. I have owned the SC for about 2 years and it just doesn't seem to have the power it should and seems to just be getting worse. bought it with 200 hours on a Penn Yan over haul. About 500 on it now.
    Thanks hangarmonkey thanked for this post

  7. #7
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    11,279
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by scottsville View Post
    My engine is has been loosing power over the past year or so. Just really noticed it the other day! Lost about 100 rpms on climb out than I had been seeing. Its not swinging the prop to the rpms it should be. Just seems to be getting worse the more I fly it. the mags are Bendix and are 2010 models. Going to check timing soon and hope that is the problem. I have owned the SC for about 2 years and it just doesn't seem to have the power it should and seems to just be getting worse. bought it with 200 hours on a Penn Yan over haul. About 500 on it now.
    Flush carb first. May even need to blow back through main jet & reflush.




    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  8. #8
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    11,279
    Post Thanks / Like
    Also if you have a sticky/leaking intake valve that will cut power to multiple cylinders. Also check for bent push rods.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  9. #9
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Have you done a 500 hr inspection on your mags? It's time for it.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    50
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have Elctroair in my exp cub. Replace one mag with electronic and kept one for redundancy.

    I can tell you it starts in 1/2 a rotation hot or cold. Also put a MT prop on it at same time so take the performance gain with a grain of salt but it responds immediately to throttle commands. Fuel burn improved. If you canít tell I love it. Canít think of one negative thing about it.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    Likes Brandsman liked this post

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffP View Post
    I have Elctroair in my exp cub. Replace one mag with electronic and kept one for redundancy.

    I can tell you it starts in 1/2 a rotation hot or cold. Also put a MT prop on it at same time so take the performance gain with a grain of salt but it responds immediately to throttle commands. Fuel burn improved. If you canít tell I love it. Canít think of one negative thing about it.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

    What MT prop did you put on it? Yes definitely going with electronic ignition if I change them.

    Thanks

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Get one with variable time or wait til SureFly gets it approved. The magic of EI is lost in the certified world.
    Thanks barrow pilot thanked for this post
    Likes FdxLou liked this post

  13. #13
    Amy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    WI/MN/SD
    Posts
    702
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Electroair system is sweet but you do pay for it. I forget what the 4-cylinder system is with installation but a 6-cylinder runs about $8,500 in the Twin Cities area. Itís a great system, seems well-thought-our and has even impressed us grumpy mag devotees. It cut our demo 182ís fuel burn by about 1.8 gph and it it runs so smooth and starts so nice. Idles really slowly too, really nice for short strips and float operations. But, as SB mentioned, if you donít have the variable timing you give up most of those benefits except your airplane will start better.

    SureFly will be a great option once their electronic ignition has variable timing on it. It requires less modification to install and is cheaper than a mag. But, not sure when this will be done. Iíve been watching and waiting a while.

    óAmy
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.
    Likes TCE liked this post

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Amy View Post
    The Electroair system is sweet but you do pay for it. I forget what the 4-cylinder system is with installation but a 6-cylinder runs about $8,500 in the Twin Cities area. Itís a great system, seems well-thought-our and has even impressed us grumpy mag devotees. It cut our demo 182ís fuel burn by about 1.8 gph and it it runs so smooth and starts so nice. Idles really slowly too, really nice for short strips and float operations. But, as SB mentioned, if you donít have the variable timing you give up most of those benefits except your airplane will start better.

    SureFly will be a great option once their electronic ignition has variable timing on it. It requires less modification to install and is cheaper than a mag. But, not sure when this will be done. Iíve been watching and waiting a while.

    óAmy

    I talked with Surefly today. They are certified for the the cub.

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Not with variable ignition timing.
    Likes Amy liked this post

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Kindred ND
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like
    This summer I helped a customer work through some issues with a Surefly in his 182, there was zero performance loss by switching back to fixed timing. Surefly's timing map is optimized for deep LOP cruise, you do not want advanced timing when you are trying to climb at altitude (best power mixture).
    Thanks stewartb thanked for this post
    Likes 180TigerCub liked this post

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    50
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=scottsville;782690]What MT prop did you put on it? Yes definitely going with electronic ignition if I change them.

    Thanks[/QUOT

    MTV-15-B/210-58 with Nickle leading edge.




    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    50
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Amy View Post
    The Electroair system is sweet but you do pay for it. I forget what the 4-cylinder system is with installation but a 6-cylinder runs about $8,500 in the Twin Cities area. Itís a great system, seems well-thought-our and has even impressed us grumpy mag devotees. It cut our demo 182ís fuel burn by about 1.8 gph and it it runs so smooth and starts so nice. Idles really slowly too, really nice for short strips and float operations. But, as SB mentioned, if you donít have the variable timing you give up most of those benefits except your airplane will start better.

    SureFly will be a great option once their electronic ignition has variable timing on it. It requires less modification to install and is cheaper than a mag. But, not sure when this will be done. Iíve been watching and waiting a while.

    óAmy
    The Electroair has a map sensor that is used to adjust/advance timing based on manifold pressure I believe. I canít say enough about the ease of starting, it lights so fast you will jump in disbelief. Hot or cold this old IO engine just goes.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Likes Amy liked this post

  19. #19
    sjohnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    710
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Get one with variable time or wait til SureFly gets it approved. The magic of EI is lost in the certified world.
    SureFly variable timing is now approved for the PA-18 (see the AML, changed Aug. 2019 - no note 4 for PA-18 ).

    The factory rep on the phone confirmed this to me a couple of months ago. Variable timing is not approved if you have an auto-fuel STC. According to the rep, variable timing works fine with auto fuel, but they can't get FAA approval.

    According to the rep, they key advantage for low and slow planes like the Cub is cost savings through eliminating the 500 hour inspections/overhauls. The current TBO is 2000 hours, they're working to get 4000 hours approved. Big engines start easier, but most Cubs (including mine) don't have start problems.

    I just R&R a mag in the field, thinking installation of a SureFly would be too risky away from maintenance facilities. But the next time I have a mag problem, I'll likely install one. The rep suggested replacing the non-impulse coupling mag (right mag) to allow for hand propping.

    https://05c30e68-e275-4bf5-a70e-c5fe...e57be946a0.pdf
    Make friends, because life isnít fair.
    Thanks stewartb, mike mcs repair thanked for this post

  20. #20
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,147
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Have you done a 500 hr inspection on your mags? It's time for it. Web
    And/or maybe the plugs need replacing.

    https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice.n...shooting-guide
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes mike mcs repair, jrussl liked this post

  21. #21
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Anyone here actually have time running a Surefly? I'd like to hear input on installation and operation.

    Web
    Last edited by wireweinie; 09-16-2020 at 09:24 AM. Reason: teacher always said I couldn't spell
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  22. #22
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    10,972
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have zero experience with the electronic ignitions being discussed here, but my airplane, equipped with an O-360 does have a LASAR ignition system installed. I didn't install it, so have no before and after comparison.

    But, this ignition does increase cylinder head temperatures about 20 to 30 degrees, near as I can tell. With many installations, that's not a problem, but there are a lot of tightly cowled airplanes out there that might not like that.

    Again, I don't know if this is the case with other EI's, but I've been told that if you advance the ignition timing, you'll make more heat.

    MTV

  23. #23
    180TigerCub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Penn Yan, NY
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Anyone here actually have time running a Surefly? I'd like to here input on installation and operation.

    Web
    We ran initial tests for SureFly during the Cert process and never had a problem. Recently, we have run a number of engines in the test cells with both VVT and fixed timing SureFlys on certified and experimental engines. They are easy to install and work well.
    Zero warranties. As CaseyO explained, the variable timing is of no consequence unless you are at altitude and in serious cruise mode. They do not make a measurable difference in HP at sea level.
    I'm never over 5K' and rarely over 2k'. I run Slick mags on my Cub.
    180HP PA-18
    Thanks sjohnson, wireweinie, jrussl thanked for this post
    Likes AkPA/18 liked this post

  24. #24
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I have zero experience with the electronic ignitions being discussed here, but my airplane, equipped with an O-360 does have a LASAR ignition system installed. I didn't install it, so have no before and after comparison.

    But, this ignition does increase cylinder head temperatures about 20 to 30 degrees, near as I can tell. With many installations, that's not a problem, but there are a lot of tightly cowled airplanes out there that might not like that.

    Again, I don't know if this is the case with other EI's, but I've been told that if you advance the ignition timing, you'll make more heat.

    MTV
    The LASAR system is the only one I've had much experience with, also. If you read comments on the internet, you'd think that most everybody that used it had problems. I had good luck with them and had no major issues. Also, the only electronic system that you could hand prop with a dead battery. Not sure how far I'd trust a system that needed external power source to fire up (at least up here). I agree with the rise in CHT's. The factory says it's because the fuel/air charge burns more completely. Can't verify that. What I saw was an incredibly smooth idle for a small Lycoming. The best description I heard was 'no increase in power but a lot less throttle for typical speed'.

    Not sure of an even comparison to something like the Surefly as the LASAR system replaces both mags.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  25. #25

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    I don't know how many Pmag owners wire a panel switch but I can flip from 34* advance to 39* advance and I don't recognize any difference for the way I fly.

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Kindred ND
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like
    The installation is very straightforward. It does require an unswitched circuit from the battery so depending on the airplane there is a little labor involved in wiring.

    To utilize the advanced timing feature it obviously requires a manifold pressure connection. That means on a cub you are going to loose one primer nozzle unless you add a boss to one of the induction tubes.

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Thompson Falls, Mt.
    Posts
    153
    Post Thanks / Like
    SJohnson- are you saying Surefly now has the electronic mag that has the timing advance that I can buy, right now, for my certified super cub? If so, I guess I would buy two of them and replace my slicks? I had the LASAR but when we went to a O360 we didn't put them on. I really did like the LASAR. At 2200 rpm I only burned 5 gpm and it started (I hand propped) very easily and did seem to run very smoothly. But they don't make parts any more for them. I was running the O320 160 hp then. Most of my flying was 3,500-8,500 msl.

  28. #28
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    10,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyO View Post
    The installation is very straightforward. It does require an unswitched circuit from the battery so depending on the airplane there is a little labor involved in wiring.

    To utilize the advanced timing feature it obviously requires a manifold pressure connection. That means on a cub you are going to loose one primer nozzle unless you add a boss to one of the induction tubes.
    Use one of the fuel injector ports which are plugged on the top of the cylinder.
    N1PA

  29. #29
    Farmboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Glens Falls, NY
    Posts
    2,422
    Post Thanks / Like

    Electronic ignitions?

    We have a ďcompanyĒ 150 we are overhauling and found one mag unserviceable. Installed an ElectroAir unit - ďmagĒ install and timing was fast.
    Took much longer to add a doubler on the firewall to mount the coil pack, and then mount the electronics box and supplied pressure sensor inside the firewall.

    Complete kit as shipped was very well done, and we have high expectations. As above all reports are good.

    Will be a awhile to finish up the panel and aircraft refurbish, but if you have to change a mag anyhow....


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Kindred ND
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Use one of the fuel injector ports which are plugged on the top of the cylinder.
    Good call if you have them, I have only seen OEM's use the primer port. Of the two 4-cyl Lycomings in the shop right now one has them, one doesn't.
    Likes skywagon8a liked this post

  31. #31
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    10,972
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    The LASAR system is the only one I've had much experience with, also. If you read comments on the internet, you'd think that most everybody that used it had problems. I had good luck with them and had no major issues. Also, the only electronic system that you could hand prop with a dead battery. Not sure how far I'd trust a system that needed external power source to fire up (at least up here). I agree with the rise in CHT's. The factory says it's because the fuel/air charge burns more completely. Can't verify that. What I saw was an incredibly smooth idle for a small Lycoming. The best description I heard was 'no increase in power but a lot less throttle for typical speed'.

    Not sure of an even comparison to something like the Surefly as the LASAR system replaces both mags.

    Web
    My experience with the Lasar is similar. I just wanted to point out that if indeed higher CHTs is characteristic of all EI units, folks should take that into account. Seems like a lot of people on this forum and elsewhere concerned with high CHTs. Might not want to make it worse.

    MTV
    Likes wireweinie liked this post

  32. #32
    CamTom12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Posts
    782
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I don't know how many Pmag owners wire a panel switch but I can flip from 34* advance to 39* advance and I don't recognize any difference for the way I fly.
    Talking to Brad at emagair, youíd have to switch before power is applied to the pmag. I guess thatís the only time the A or B curve jumper is read.

  33. #33
    CamTom12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Posts
    782
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    My experience with the Lasar is similar. I just wanted to point out that if indeed higher CHTs is characteristic of all EI units, folks should take that into account. Seems like a lot of people on this forum and elsewhere concerned with high CHTs. Might not want to make it worse.

    MTV
    This is accurate. Because of timing advance at part throttle, youíre making more power (and thus higher CHTs) than you would with a fixed-timing ignition.

  34. #34

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Talking to Brad at emagair, you’d have to switch before power is applied to the pmag. I guess that’s the only time the A or B curve jumper is read.
    Correct. And probably why I don't recognize any difference. Every takeoff is an adventure for me.
    Likes CamTom12 liked this post

  35. #35
    brown bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    emporia ks
    Posts
    572
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks stewartb thanked for this post
    Likes silflexer liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Experimental ignitions systems choice
    By Olibuilt in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 03-12-2019, 10:25 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-03-2018, 07:19 AM
  3. Think twice before going all electronic!
    By coxcub in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-18-2013, 07:46 PM
  4. Mags, electronic ignitions, and tires
    By Speedo in forum Super Cub Sick Bay
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-15-2005, 03:07 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •