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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #3041
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richgj3 View Post
    Bolt and nut missing (assumes the nut was ever there.)
    This is why I never put a castle nut on without putting in the cotter pin. This even if I think I may have to remove it again. It is too easy to forget or miss an important one.
    N1PA
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  2. #3042
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    And flag anything that is only partly done with bright colored masking tape, and a notation if not obvious.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  3. #3043

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    I’m new to the DHC-3 this season and learning every day. Garrett-12 on EDO 7850 floats. Observations in just under 250hrs. Amazing performance! The controls are smooth and you have to remind yourself that you are flying an 8000lb airplane because it doesn’t feel like it. If you feel a slight vibration in your feet trim the rudder. The cannon plugs for the fuel sending units loosened enough to effect the fuel quantity gauge. The cylinder release screw on my S&W 629 pistol that I carry in the airplane came loose (not aircraft related but interesting).

    An old DHC-3 1340 pilot shared a story when he lost the elevator jackscrew in flight and had to have all his passenger run to the rear to maintain altitude. Was able to land safely.

    I’ve had an inflight rudder failure in a Cub and was able to maneuver to a safe landing. So these Otter incidents have me very concerned very alert.
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  4. #3044
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    ^^^^What's normal cruise speed and how close is that to maximum? Edit: Like Vno or Vne?

    Gary

  5. #3045
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    ^^^^What's normal cruise speed and how close is that to maximum? Edit: Like Vno or Vne?

    Gary
    An extremely high time Garrett Otter pilot told me once that the turbine has little effect on 'forward' speeds but makes a huge increase in climbing speeds. Makes sense as the design of the wings and airframe will set airspeeds no matter how much horsepower is under the cowl.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  6. #3046
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    An extremely high time Garrett Otter pilot told me once that the turbine has little effect on 'forward' speeds but makes a huge increase in climbing speeds. Makes sense as the design of the wings and airframe will set airspeeds no matter how much horsepower is under the cowl.

    Web
    Web, here's why I ask about airspeed> https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNumber=ANC15LA037

    Read the three Docket files for their analysis.

    Gary
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  7. #3047
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    My point is that the limits like Vne are dictated by the airframe, not the engine. Now if someone exceeded an airspeed limit, then damage is probably going to occur.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  8. #3048
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Web, yes I agree. Which is why above I asked Yetnacruiser what indicated and true airspeeds were experienced during normal ops, and in what configuration?

    Gary

  9. #3049
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I have towed with several different aircraft. I alway set trim after landing so I was in trim for the next tow. Did the accident report indicate how far out of trim this tug was?
    I found the report. It happened in May of 1984. Funny how time flys as we get older. . Not much detail. No mention of trim position. PIC did not have a current BFR and was fairly low time. But that’s not what killed him. The airplane got re-covered and its annual inspection 30 hours before by the same shop. They were assigned the bulk of the responsibility.

    They found the bolt but never found a nut or cotter pin.

    Good advice to set the trim.

  10. #3050
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    My point is that the limits like Vne are dictated by the airframe, not the engine. Now if someone exceeded an airspeed limit, then damage is probably going to occur.

    Web
    Web,
    Not sure about the Otter, but when DH converted to the Turbo Beaver, they were required to reduce Vne to the top of the “normal operating range”. That eliminated the yellow arc, which turbines don’t have. Vne on a recon Beaver is quite a bit higher than a Turbo Beaver. At least the DHC-2 MK 3s that came out of the factory.

    MTV

  11. #3051
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    If readers do nothing else at least read the "Aircraft Performance Study" linked in #3022 and #3046. Note the difference between the calculated Calibrated and True Airspeeds. Then ask yourself which one the airframe is most affected by?

    Gary
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  12. #3052
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    INote the difference between the calculated Calibrated and True Airspeeds. Then ask yourself which one the airframe is most affected by?
    I think the answer is EAS (equivalent air speed) but few aircraft display EAS. Many aircraft do have Vmo reduced at increasing altitude to take account of the increasing difference beween CAS and EAS. This Vmo vs altitude table may be included in the TCDS and may also be required to be placarded on the instrument panel.
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  13. #3053
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    One more question: At any time during flight - takeoff to landing - can propeller blown air over the empennage exceed V-limited airspeed that's sensed by the pitot-static system?

    Gary

  14. #3054
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    One more question: At any time during flight - takeoff to landing - can propeller blown air over the empennage exceed V-limited airspeed that's sensed by the pitot-static system?

    Gary
    There are a lot of operators flying turbine otters, year after year after year. Look a the pics in the links you posted. The smoked rivets are pretty much a dead giveaway as to what started that ball rolling. If this was some huge issue, outfits like AWA would have lost the otters years ago. I think poor maintenance and even poorer preflights are probably a much larger cause of problems than some prop blast over the tails.
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  15. #3055

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    ^^^^What's normal cruise speed and how close is that to maximum? Edit: Like Vno or Vne?

    Gary
    If memory serves, redline for turbine Otter landplane is 115 kts, seaplane 124 kts IAS. I've heard it is not easy to exceed those speeds in level flight by more than a few knots, especially if loaded.
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  16. #3056

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    If it lawn darted into the water and the tails aren't falling off these aircraft on a regular basis pilot incapacitation is the most likely cause.

  17. #3057
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    I captured a screen shot of the tail end of that flight off FR24,
    looks like it had been cruising at 700' doing 80 knots.
    Pretty normal flight profile for these aircraft.
    I saw two turbine otters (probably Kenmore's) flying the same path a day or two later.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  18. #3058
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    I got a rare call for crane service on a Sunday, usually when that happens it's a overweight trucker stuck at the local Port of Entry until he gets lightened up. A rare chance to show my crane AND plane chops all at the same time. The Piper Saratoga landed gear up, pilot just forgot, I joshed him a bit until I remembered the times I've landed (Datum retracts) wheels down on snow, and skis down on the grass.

    I rejected the first front rigging point, suggested by one of the helpers, of using the lift lug on the engine, the one that's there to pick the engine, not the whole front of the plane. Then I rejected another's idea of rigging to the motor mount, in front of the rubber mounts. I pointed out that using the mount structure that's bolted to the firewall, would not torque on the rubber donuts, and being "the crane guy", we did it my way..... The rear pick point, using a 4" wide strap to spread the load as much as possible, was directly under a fuselage station, didn't want to oil can that surprisingly thin tin. We took our time, made one adjustment on the rigging length, and then she levitated up at the normal AOA just high enough to let the pilot (finally) put the gear down. Based local, he then was able to tow it to his hangar. Fun job, beat swinging trusses. The funds earned are earmarked to go directly to "airplane stuff." Best of all, no local media coverage whatsoever.
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  19. #3059
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Best of all, no local media coverage whatsoever.
    Until now
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  20. #3060
    courierguy's Avatar
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    You guys don't count. No N number visible, made sure of that.

  21. #3061
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Saratoga?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  22. #3062
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Saratoga?

    Web
    The rare high wing version. .

    That’s ok. I can’t identify a thing on that crane.
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  23. #3063
    courierguy's Avatar
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    That's what I was told, a Saratoga. I do know the fuselage skin was like tin foil, kinda surprised me what light gauge it seemed to be, gets the job done though.

    Thinking back, after I hoisted it up high enough for him to put the gear down, and he motioned to me to let 'er down, I should have asked first, "you SURE the gear is down?"

  24. #3064

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    No wing struts, looks like a 210

  25. #3065
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Cessna 177RG? Triangular panel in front side windows.

    Gary
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  26. #3066

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Cessna 177RG? Triangular panel in front side windows.

    Gary

    I think you are correct,, looks like the Cardinal I fly in Texas.



  27. #3067

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    We lost another good pilot and person. Doug will be missed> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/281506

    It's August and hunting season so be careful.

    Gary

    I read the ntsb report on this crash, and the trim was full nose up. ???

    In every picture I find of this airplane, including at a different accident, the stab is set full nose up.

    Why is that?

  28. #3068
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoJo View Post
    I read the ntsb report on this crash, and the trim was full nose up. ???

    In every picture I find of this airplane, including at a different accident, the stab is set full nose up.

    Why is that?
    That's a good question ( NTSB ANC22FA066). I spoke with a local FSDO inspector that first mentioned the trim position. Driving around the local airports I saw several PA-12's on conventional gear with PA-18 empennage and long engine mounts (and most with upgraded engines/props). They had their trim-horizontal stabilizer nose resting near or full down. Most PA-18's not as much. This accident plane also had large tires and a Crosswinds STOL kit but I have no idea about that relationship to the trim.

    Maybe PA-12 owners could comment on their typical trim position inflight or after landing?

    Gary

  29. #3069

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    I don't know the plane or the pilot. Unless I have a pretty heavy load I usually do all my landings with full nose up trim in case I need to really get on the brakes. Takeoff is 9 turns nose down , unless I re trim for takeoff as I taxi back to the hanger mine will be at or close to full nose up when parked. A long mount 12 with a big motor and Borer will likely use more nose up trim, could be just how that plane is set up. Some pilots just don't use the trim much and just strong arm the entire flight. It is really just wild ass guesses unless you knew the pilot and plane.
    DENNY
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  30. #3070
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Two pics of the accident aircraft prior show the trim to be at or near full nose up when at rest. The only reason it was discussed locally after the accident is that we, as current non-owners of that model, wondered why that position? That's all and it's not being guessed by me whether or not it contributed to the crash. I owned a PA-12-180 for a few years ('97-2001) on wheels, skis, and floats but don't recall the typical trim position in flight or after landing. And, we knew the pilot and plane for years.

    Gary

  31. #3071
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    The report says he was at gross. If he was fighting "violent" winds he was likely flying at or below Va, and when heavy having the trim set for nose up makes sense. As it does for lots of planes post-landing when the pilot doesn't reset it for the next flight. Personally I trim as part of my pre-takeoff routine, not post-landing, so my trim in parking is typically near the nose up limit.

  32. #3072
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Here's the Preliminary Report for N3937M PA-12. See Page 2 for 08/11/2022 Arctic Village Alaska> https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-pub...th=8&year=2022

    Gary

  33. #3073
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Here's a brief flight in a turbine Otter.

    N1PA
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  34. #3074
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Now fill the plane with passengers and fuel then repeat the slow flight-stall series from about 04:00 on. In gusty conditions preferably. I don't know - maybe there's a safety margin in there somewhere.

    Gary

  35. #3075
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Now fill the plane with passengers and fuel then repeat the slow flight-stall series from about 04:00 on. In gusty conditions preferably. I don't know - maybe there's a safety margin in there somewhere.

    Gary
    Notice at 5:20 he says at full gross weight the stall speed is over 100. I didn't hear him mention cruise speed, but at full gross there doesn't appear to be much margin
    N1PA

  36. #3076
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    ^^^^Yes. and ~torque will roll you inverted, and ~ full power on the tail stalls and it snaps over straight down (my words - watch for actual text). I bet that pilot is very good at what he's does, but some may not be as well qualified.

    Then there's this legalize word salad regarding an Otter crash in Alaska. Note the STOL kit data and rear CG limits tested. https://www.casemine.com/judgement/u...53d00e93023f2f

    Gary

  37. #3077
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    N1PA

  38. #3078

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The report says he was at gross. If he was fighting "violent" winds he was likely flying at or below Va, and when heavy having the trim set for nose up makes sense. As it does for lots of planes post-landing when the pilot doesn't reset it for the next flight. Personally I trim as part of my pre-takeoff routine, not post-landing, so my trim in parking is typically near the nose up limit.
    in my 12's, with long mounts, the more weight I add the more the trim moves to nose down for cruise and landing, as all added weight goes to a rearward CG. Empty I land with full nose up trim, at gross I am probably several turns towards nose down on landing. With a gross weight increase and my ELT way back by the tail at full gross my trim is WAY nose down in flight.
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  39. #3079
    windy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    in my 12's, with long mounts, the more weight I add the more the trim moves to nose down for cruise and landing, as all added weight goes to a rearward CG. Empty I land with full nose up trim, at gross I am probably several turns towards nose down on landing. With a gross weight increase and my ELT way back by the tail at full gross my trim is WAY nose down in flight.
    In my PA-12 with 180hp & short mount, my trim is always somewhere in the middle. After I take off, I set the trim for cruise & never have to adjust it again for that flight. When slowing down for landing, I add a notches of flaps to counteract the pitch down. No horsing around needed. The controls are light enough to fly with two fingers.
    The only time the trim goes to full nose up or full nose down is at the annual.
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  40. #3080
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Notice at 5:20 he says at full gross weight the stall speed is over 100. I didn't hear him mention cruise speed, but at full gross there doesn't appear to be much margin
    I noticed that as well. That’s quite different than what appears in the print version, which makes MUCH more sense.

    There, he states that after takeoff, flaps up and 90 knots for climb. He then quotes the pilot: “The biggest gotcha is that the Otter can stall at nearly cruise speed with a heavy load when the flaps are up and the pilot pulls hard during a steep turn.” He went on: “Then, the torque can roll the airplane inverted.” The article continues: “Steep turns with partial flaps, however, are extremely forgiving and the Otter can turn around using minimal real estate.”

    That is classic deHavilland flight characteristic. When I checked out in the Beaver, Jack Cory really beat me up with turns…..slow down in anticipation, lower some flap, then turn. At altitude, attempting steep turns with no flap resulted in pretty impressive stalls. And flaps in these planes require some monkey motion: Select flaps to down, then pump them down to the desired position. Not something you’re going to do once you’re started in a turn.

    The Baron STOL kit was specifically address this characteristic. I’ve never flown a Baron wing Beaver, but a stock plane will turn with the best….IF you have flaps deployed.

    Equipped with a Baron STOL kit, I can’t believe that plane stalls at 100 knots in level flight.

    MTV
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