Page 80 of 84 FirstFirst ... 30707879808182 ... LastLast
Results 3,161 to 3,200 of 3343

Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #3161

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    180s have a plastic fairing that conceals that area. I don't think 185s have the same, so inspections would be easier. Tying down wouldn't stress the lower fitting much. The damage history to the right wing may play a role.

    That was aktango's friend, right?
    Last edited by stewartb; 10-31-2022 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #3162
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    I was thinking non-stretching tie downs like chains or cable (rare). Moving then an abrupt stop with shock to the strut. Most use ropes. Also the Docket notes a portion of the outboard top skin separated or departed the right wing at some point.

    Docket: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=102605

    Gary

  3. #3163
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    I briefly looked at two Cessnas parked nearby today...a C-180 and a C-185. The C-180 had no visible paint loss around the lower or upper outside strut rivets. The C-185 had one lower rivet on the right strut that showed some paint loss. Might happen over time? I flew two C-185's last Century but never looked. I did twist them on occasion to make sure they were still fastened top and bottom and they could move a little at the attachment fittings if provoked.

    Gary

  4. #3164
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    4,042
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Heads Up Cessna flyers!
    This accident report of a 185E on February 4,2021 in Chitina Alaska was brought to my attention by a friend.
    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/0...25z-fatal.html
    .....
    Was a final report ever issued for this accident?
    The passenger was a local guy from my area,
    I know some of his relatives.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes Coulee Clipper liked this post

  5. #3165
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Was a final report ever issued for this accident?
    The passenger was a local guy from my area,
    I know some of his relatives.
    "The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: An in-flight breakup during cruise flight for reasons that could not be determined based on available evidence. Findings: Not determined (general) - Unknown/Not determined"

    Gary

  6. #3166
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    12,688
    Post Thanks / Like
    THAT ...
    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    "The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: An in-flight breakup during cruise flight for reasons that could not be determined based on available evidence. Findings: Not determined (general) - Unknown/Not determined"

    Gary
    ... is a disappointment, since with just a cursory glance at some pictures there is ample evidence of a likely cause.

    Sometimes it is wise to question the NTSB's accident analysis. For example: when the person who bought that airplane in my avitar did himself in with that airplane ....... the investigation was done from the office without ever visiting the site. I know this because I was there helping the State investigator, and the report didn't even have the correct make of engines installed.
    N1PA
    Thanks Airguide thanked for this post

  7. #3167
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    Review the Docket> https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=102605 Note the prior damage and subsequent repairs. Some parts were replaced-repaired-reused. That may not be significant.

    Gary
    Thanks mixer thanked for this post
    Likes mixer liked this post

  8. #3168

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    The right wing had a big portion of the upper skin release and fold in half. The report doesn't indicate whether that happened before the strut failure or after, but in my feeble thinking it's more likely the wing skin caused the strut to fail than the other way around. As a Skywagon owner, I'm not sure what to take away from this report other than the root cause was likely related to the previous repairs to the right wing. I'm a bit surprised that the NTSB didn't dig deeper.

  9. #3169
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    4,839
    Post Thanks / Like
    Legitimate question here: How would it be determined if the skin folded back before or after the strut broke? What evidence would be looked at?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  10. #3170
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    12,688
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The right wing had a big portion of the upper skin release and fold in half. The report doesn't indicate whether that happened before the strut failure or after, but in my feeble thinking it's more likely the wing skin caused the strut to fail than the other way around. As a Skywagon owner, I'm not sure what to take away from this report other than the root cause was likely related to the previous repairs to the right wing. I'm a bit surprised that the NTSB didn't dig deeper.
    That is a good point. What did that other airplane hitting that wing do which transmitted damage to the lower end of the strut? It's possible the lower rivets partially sheared during that impact only to completely separate much later. That still doesn't take away from the fact the rest of the rivets do show evidence of being loose.

    In that other report which Gary linked there is mention of the cabin roof being replaced. What was the cause of that repair? Were they related? The picture isn't clear enough to see any damage to the cabin top.

    The strut also appears to have had electrical tape wrapped around it hiding any bad rivets. Why was the tape there? Certainly not for a place to place a foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Legitimate question here: How would it be determined if the skin folded back before or after the strut broke? What evidence would be looked at?

    Web
    It looks as though the lower rivets sheared allowing the fitting to bend upward while it pulled out of the strut, slicing the strut skin on either side of the fitting in the process.
    N1PA
    Likes wireweinie, Travelair3000 liked this post

  11. #3171

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    I’d expect them to inspect rivets and skin prep. For a skin to fold back enough to have aileron tracks imprinted would require it to be rigidly held against a tremendous amount of drag. And that wing was found in 5 pieces. It would have to have been attached to cause that. Once the skin folded the plane would have been uncontrollable. The wing coming apart after losing a skin might be expected. I’m not sure an intact wing coming off a plane would have done the same thing, but it might. I’m just trying to make sense of it.

  12. #3172
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    According to the Docket for N9725Z the donor of the right wing was a C-180 N91399 SN 18052069. It had experienced at least three prior "events"...06/09/79 St. Marys AK; 11/20/2005 Merrill Field AK; and 07/06/2014 Wasilla AK. What damage occurred or what parts were subsequently repaired I'll leave up to the reader to examine via an Internet search. That may have had no effect on this accident, however.

    Gary
    Thanks JeffP, flyboyrv3 thanked for this post
    Likes akmarty liked this post

  13. #3173
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    12,688
    Post Thanks / Like
    So are you thinking the skin may have peeled back first, creating an overload which then failed the strut? I suppose that is possible, if the repairs were faulty. That skin peel damage is highly unlikely prior to some other failure as the structural loads on the skin in that area are very light. The wing damage appears more to me to be violent impact damage. My thoughts were based upon the evidence of loose rivets in the undamaged opposite strut having assumed both struts had loose and/or failed rivets. The failed rivet heads could have been captured by the electrical tape and thus unseen for a period of time. Just a time bomb waiting to go off!
    N1PA

  14. #3174

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes, that's my thinking.

    A section of right wing upper skin was separated that spanned from about WS 100 to WS 208.
    The skin was folded in half lengthwise near the mid span point as recovered and straightened
    during the exam. There were several V-shaped dents in the trailing edge gap seal between WS
    156 and WS 185 consistent with the aileron skin stiffening corrugations. The outboard upper
    skin panel was attached and had paint and markings consistent with being replaced. The upper
    wing stringers remained attached to the skin and the WS 100 rib remained attached.

  15. #3175

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois & Wisconsin
    Posts
    903
    Post Thanks / Like
    Sitting, trapped in my truck after driving into a tree at 55 mph and being unable to extricate myself because of 11 broken ribs, a broken sternum, and a shattered pelvis, I realized just how helpless one can become even in “survivable” accidents. Had the truck caught fire or plunged into the nearby lake I would have died. No one would choose to go by water, fire, or falling from the sky depicted in too many of these Oops reports.

    Condolences to the family and friends of those they lost.
    Likes Bill Rusk, flynlow liked this post

  16. #3176
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    More would be learned if there were simple cockpit voice recorders available. I'm not suggesting mega thousand $ hard mounted devices, rather something that monitors and captures either intercom or transceiver voice for brief periods until overwritten. The overwrite interval need not be long. In these very sad events without some indication about what happened we are left having to analyze but mainly in the end assume. GPS' can store some basic recoverable flight data (typically as .CSV files). Why not offer something similar for general aviation cockpit audio?

    Like this from here?

    https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ps/cockpitaccessories_recording/iphonecable11-12913.php


    Gary

  17. #3177

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    New glass panels have “black box” function built in. A post-accident investigator can review the instruments right to the end.
    Thanks BC12D-4-85 thanked for this post

  18. #3178
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,923
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    The failed rivet heads could have been captured by the electrical tape and thus unseen for a period of time. Just a time bomb waiting to go off!
    The electrical tape was added to hold a cushion for when the door would get pushed into the strut to prevent damage to the door skin.

    Lots of discussion on previous history of parts. My one thought is that history is minor in the scheme of things. What is important is what is the condition of the plane? History might suggest where to dig deeper in an inspection, but for pilots doing preflights- are we really going to dig through the entire history of a rental plane or friend's plane before we go flying? Or maybe we need to reset our pre-flight observations to no longer ignore smoking rivets?

    Thank you Pete for bringing this discussion forward.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  19. #3179

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    523
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have a little recorder, stores the last 15 seconds of whatever my headset hears. So a tower call, a transmission etc. Doesn't matter, it will store the last 15 seconds. Hit a button and it will replay it. Which comes in handy for my dad who uses the replay. I don't remember who builds it but I bought it at Oshkosh around 2010.

  20. #3180
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    I recall from the initial findings that the C-185 discussed here developed some brisk GPS ground speeds during the final descent. The NTSB examined the onboard GPS and noted it recorded a range of from 127 to finally 154 KTS GS while dropping about 1800' in ~5 minutes. Landes the wheel ski manufacturer earlier developed a couple of mandatory SB's that changed the bungee composition, rigging configuration, and established a Vno of 139 KTIAS - Vne 160 KTIAS. Just a comment that may have no bearing on this accident.

    Gary
    Likes Travelair3000 liked this post

  21. #3181
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    12,688
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Or maybe we need to reset our pre-flight observations to no longer ignore smoking rivets?
    Smoking rivets in a wing skin are likely a minor issue, In a wing strut to fitting location ....... well that's another matter altogether. One must consider the location and what it does.
    N1PA
    Likes aktango58 liked this post

  22. #3182
    Formandfunction's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Smoked rivets in a structural member is the failure of whomever signed that thing off as airworthy. Nobody is helping anybody signing stuff like that off. If the IA didn't know it was there he is equally responsible for not doing his job correctly.
    If I had to guess it probably pulled the rivets out and as the wing rotated it ripped apart from the tip working it's way toward the fuselage. Totally avoidable accident
    Likes tedwaltman1 liked this post

  23. #3183
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    12,688
    Post Thanks / Like
    A new proposed AD on the Otter trim system.
    https://public-inspection.federalreg...2022-23899.pdf
    N1PA
    Likes flyboyrv3 liked this post

  24. #3184
    S2D's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    4,292
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Formandfunction View Post
    Smoked rivets in a structural member is the failure of whomever signed that thing off as airworthy. Nobody is helping anybody signing stuff like that off. If the IA didn't know it was there he is equally responsible for not doing his job correctly.
    (a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.

    Keep in mind FAR 43 appendix D part (a)

    Many times someone else cleans the airplane before the inspection. In this case it is easy to overlook a smoked rivet if not really loose.
    AFNB
    Likes LMartin liked this post

  25. #3185

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    AK
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    A new proposed AD on the Otter trim system.
    https://public-inspection.federalreg...2022-23899.pdf
    That’s already been an AD since Nov. 2.

  26. #3186

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    AK
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like
    On the Cessna strut rivets: Has anyone replaced them or knows who can? I have a 180 in the shop now with all the upper rivets smoking on both struts. Bottom fittings not so much. This plane gets hosed with ACF-50 annually, so that may make it look a bit worse, but they’re definitely moving. How to deal with these? I believe they’re a -10 rivet, and I doubt any of my equipment will handle those. Also have a couple with the poor countersinking Pete described earlier...

  27. #3187

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    AK
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like
    Looks like they’re just AD rivets- squeeze them in a hydraulic press?
    Likes Steve Pierce, aktango58 liked this post

  28. #3188

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    67.8N,115.1W CYCO Canada
    Posts
    1,053
    Post Thanks / Like
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	blob.jpg 
Views:	189 
Size:	71.6 KB 
ID:	63491

    Apparently a Talkeetna-based aircraft. Emergency landing in a Whitehorse neighbourhood November 9, 2022.

  29. #3189
    courierguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Inkom, Idaho
    Posts
    2,218
    Post Thanks / Like
    I love seeing plane crash pictures, where it still looks like an airplane, where it appears the pilot kept flying all the way down! That pilot should be proud, unless he/she did something stupid that is.
    Last edited by courierguy; 11-10-2022 at 10:13 PM.
    Likes NunavutPA-12 liked this post

  30. #3190
    scout88305's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Northern Minnesota
    Posts
    1,853
    Post Thanks / Like
    Big east winds there, two gals. They can repair that one for sure. Not a lot of options at this location they did well!

    Name:  51104.jpeg
Views: 1235
Size:  132.8 KB



    Name:  51105.jpeg
Views: 1241
Size:  186.0 KB

    “We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

  31. #3191
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    4,207
    Post Thanks / Like
    ^^^^Tailwheel or trike? I see nose wheel in the snow?

    Gary

  32. #3192

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    67.8N,115.1W CYCO Canada
    Posts
    1,053
    Post Thanks / Like
    Pa-22
    Thanks BC12D-4-85 thanked for this post

  33. #3193

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    523
    Post Thanks / Like
    Anyone know much about the cub type that went into the Matanuska river upside down near Chickaloon a couple hours ago?

  34. #3194

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,073
    Post Thanks / Like
    There was a low hand tram crossing there in the past not sure if it is still there. I have not looked for quiet a few years. Paint scheme has become popular around here in the past few years. Hope everyone is ok. Prop is not bent so might have had engine problem.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 11-10-2022 at 08:32 PM.
    Thanks EdH thanked for this post

  35. #3195
    Herc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Big Lake, Alaska
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like
    There are two zip lines that cross up there. In the article own is shown. Its the last picture that shows the platform. Sure wish those were noted on the sectional. Sad day for sure

    https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...d07rlj0cy8xd5a

  36. #3196
    Herc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Big Lake, Alaska
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	zip.jpg 
Views:	212 
Size:	213.4 KB 
ID:	63521

  37. #3197

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    523
    Post Thanks / Like
    Location: Chickaloon Type: Aircraft Crash Fatality

    Dispatch Text:
    On November 10, 2022, at 12:48 pm, Alaska Wildlife Troopers received a report of an airplane crash located in the Matanuska River near Mile 77 of the Glenn Highway. AWT and AST Troopers responded to the scene. The FAA and NTSB were contacted, and the NTSB arrived on scene shortly after. The Matanuska Dive Team responded and launched their boat to access the site. The adult male pilot was the sole person in the aircraft and was declared deceased on scene. MTR Towing arrived on scene and with the help of the Dive Team were able to remove the aircraft from the river. The body was removed from the fuselage and turned over to a local funeral home vehicle. Further investigation revealed there was another aircraft flying with this aircraft and witnessed the aircraft hit a cable and crash. Next of kin notification procedures are ongoing.

  38. #3198

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    Sadly, I recognize that plane. I sure hope I’m wrong.
    Thanks flynlow thanked for this post

  39. #3199

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Posts
    7,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    I wasn’t wrong. The pilot was Josh Seagrave. Great guy. Beautiful Cub. He’ll be missed.
    Thanks ak49flyer thanked for this post

  40. #3200

    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    152
    Post Thanks / Like
    Holy hell, midair at the Dallas Airshow. Horrible, B17 and P51 I believe, went down in a fireball.

Similar Threads

  1. oops
    By 907cub in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-04-2012, 09:18 AM
  2. Oops
    By cubdriver2 in forum Ski Flying Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-04-2012, 07:25 PM
  3. big oops!
    By Randy in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-14-2007, 09:35 AM
  4. Darn temperture dropped
    By Alex Clark in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-02-2004, 03:32 AM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •