180s have a plastic fairing that conceals that area. I don't think 185s have the same, so inspections would be easier. Tying down wouldn't stress the lower fitting much. The damage history to the right wing may play a role.
That was aktango's friend, right?
Last edited by stewartb; 10-31-2022 at 04:17 PM.
I was thinking non-stretching tie downs like chains or cable (rare). Moving then an abrupt stop with shock to the strut. Most use ropes. Also the Docket notes a portion of the outboard top skin separated or departed the right wing at some point.
Docket: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=102605
Gary
I briefly looked at two Cessnas parked nearby today...a C-180 and a C-185. The C-180 had no visible paint loss around the lower or upper outside strut rivets. The C-185 had one lower rivet on the right strut that showed some paint loss. Might happen over time? I flew two C-185's last Century but never looked. I did twist them on occasion to make sure they were still fastened top and bottom and they could move a little at the attachment fittings if provoked.
Gary
Was a final report ever issued for this accident?Originally Posted by skywagon8a
The passenger was a local guy from my area,
I know some of his relatives.
Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!Coulee Clipper liked this post
"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: An in-flight breakup during cruise flight for reasons that could not be determined based on available evidence. Findings: Not determined (general) - Unknown/Not determined"
Gary
THAT ...... is a disappointment, since with just a cursory glance at some pictures there is ample evidence of a likely cause.
Sometimes it is wise to question the NTSB's accident analysis. For example: when the person who bought that airplane in my avitar did himself in with that airplane ....... the investigation was done from the office without ever visiting the site. I know this because I was there helping the State investigator, and the report didn't even have the correct make of engines installed.
N1PAAirguide thanked for this post
Review the Docket> https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=102605 Note the prior damage and subsequent repairs. Some parts were replaced-repaired-reused. That may not be significant.
Gary
The right wing had a big portion of the upper skin release and fold in half. The report doesn't indicate whether that happened before the strut failure or after, but in my feeble thinking it's more likely the wing skin caused the strut to fail than the other way around. As a Skywagon owner, I'm not sure what to take away from this report other than the root cause was likely related to the previous repairs to the right wing. I'm a bit surprised that the NTSB didn't dig deeper.
Legitimate question here: How would it be determined if the skin folded back before or after the strut broke? What evidence would be looked at?
Web
Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
That is a good point. What did that other airplane hitting that wing do which transmitted damage to the lower end of the strut? It's possible the lower rivets partially sheared during that impact only to completely separate much later. That still doesn't take away from the fact the rest of the rivets do show evidence of being loose.
In that other report which Gary linked there is mention of the cabin roof being replaced. What was the cause of that repair? Were they related? The picture isn't clear enough to see any damage to the cabin top.
The strut also appears to have had electrical tape wrapped around it hiding any bad rivets. Why was the tape there? Certainly not for a place to place a foot?
It looks as though the lower rivets sheared allowing the fitting to bend upward while it pulled out of the strut, slicing the strut skin on either side of the fitting in the process.
N1PA
I’d expect them to inspect rivets and skin prep. For a skin to fold back enough to have aileron tracks imprinted would require it to be rigidly held against a tremendous amount of drag. And that wing was found in 5 pieces. It would have to have been attached to cause that. Once the skin folded the plane would have been uncontrollable. The wing coming apart after losing a skin might be expected. I’m not sure an intact wing coming off a plane would have done the same thing, but it might. I’m just trying to make sense of it.
According to the Docket for N9725Z the donor of the right wing was a C-180 N91399 SN 18052069. It had experienced at least three prior "events"...06/09/79 St. Marys AK; 11/20/2005 Merrill Field AK; and 07/06/2014 Wasilla AK. What damage occurred or what parts were subsequently repaired I'll leave up to the reader to examine via an Internet search. That may have had no effect on this accident, however.
Gary
So are you thinking the skin may have peeled back first, creating an overload which then failed the strut? I suppose that is possible, if the repairs were faulty. That skin peel damage is highly unlikely prior to some other failure as the structural loads on the skin in that area are very light. The wing damage appears more to me to be violent impact damage. My thoughts were based upon the evidence of loose rivets in the undamaged opposite strut having assumed both struts had loose and/or failed rivets. The failed rivet heads could have been captured by the electrical tape and thus unseen for a period of time. Just a time bomb waiting to go off!
N1PA
Yes, that's my thinking.
A section of right wing upper skin was separated that spanned from about WS 100 to WS 208.
The skin was folded in half lengthwise near the mid span point as recovered and straightened
during the exam. There were several V-shaped dents in the trailing edge gap seal between WS
156 and WS 185 consistent with the aileron skin stiffening corrugations. The outboard upper
skin panel was attached and had paint and markings consistent with being replaced. The upper
wing stringers remained attached to the skin and the WS 100 rib remained attached.
Sitting, trapped in my truck after driving into a tree at 55 mph and being unable to extricate myself because of 11 broken ribs, a broken sternum, and a shattered pelvis, I realized just how helpless one can become even in “survivable” accidents. Had the truck caught fire or plunged into the nearby lake I would have died. No one would choose to go by water, fire, or falling from the sky depicted in too many of these Oops reports.
Condolences to the family and friends of those they lost.
More would be learned if there were simple cockpit voice recorders available. I'm not suggesting mega thousand $ hard mounted devices, rather something that monitors and captures either intercom or transceiver voice for brief periods until overwritten. The overwrite interval need not be long. In these very sad events without some indication about what happened we are left having to analyze but mainly in the end assume. GPS' can store some basic recoverable flight data (typically as .CSV files). Why not offer something similar for general aviation cockpit audio?
Like this from here?
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ps/cockpitaccessories_recording/iphonecable11-12913.php
Gary
New glass panels have “black box” function built in. A post-accident investigator can review the instruments right to the end.
The electrical tape was added to hold a cushion for when the door would get pushed into the strut to prevent damage to the door skin.
Lots of discussion on previous history of parts. My one thought is that history is minor in the scheme of things. What is important is what is the condition of the plane? History might suggest where to dig deeper in an inspection, but for pilots doing preflights- are we really going to dig through the entire history of a rental plane or friend's plane before we go flying? Or maybe we need to reset our pre-flight observations to no longer ignore smoking rivets?
Thank you Pete for bringing this discussion forward.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
I have a little recorder, stores the last 15 seconds of whatever my headset hears. So a tower call, a transmission etc. Doesn't matter, it will store the last 15 seconds. Hit a button and it will replay it. Which comes in handy for my dad who uses the replay. I don't remember who builds it but I bought it at Oshkosh around 2010.
I recall from the initial findings that the C-185 discussed here developed some brisk GPS ground speeds during the final descent. The NTSB examined the onboard GPS and noted it recorded a range of from 127 to finally 154 KTS GS while dropping about 1800' in ~5 minutes. Landes the wheel ski manufacturer earlier developed a couple of mandatory SB's that changed the bungee composition, rigging configuration, and established a Vno of 139 KTIAS - Vne 160 KTIAS. Just a comment that may have no bearing on this accident.
Gary
Smoking rivets in a wing skin are likely a minor issue, In a wing strut to fitting location ....... well that's another matter altogether. One must consider the location and what it does.
N1PA
Smoked rivets in a structural member is the failure of whomever signed that thing off as airworthy. Nobody is helping anybody signing stuff like that off. If the IA didn't know it was there he is equally responsible for not doing his job correctly.
If I had to guess it probably pulled the rivets out and as the wing rotated it ripped apart from the tip working it's way toward the fuselage. Totally avoidable accident
A new proposed AD on the Otter trim system.
https://public-inspection.federalreg...2022-23899.pdf
N1PA
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.
Keep in mind FAR 43 appendix D part (a)
Many times someone else cleans the airplane before the inspection. In this case it is easy to overlook a smoked rivet if not really loose.
AFNB
That’s already been an AD since Nov. 2.
On the Cessna strut rivets: Has anyone replaced them or knows who can? I have a 180 in the shop now with all the upper rivets smoking on both struts. Bottom fittings not so much. This plane gets hosed with ACF-50 annually, so that may make it look a bit worse, but they’re definitely moving. How to deal with these? I believe they’re a -10 rivet, and I doubt any of my equipment will handle those. Also have a couple with the poor countersinking Pete described earlier...
Looks like they’re just AD rivets- squeeze them in a hydraulic press?
Apparently a Talkeetna-based aircraft. Emergency landing in a Whitehorse neighbourhood November 9, 2022.
I love seeing plane crash pictures, where it still looks like an airplane, where it appears the pilot kept flying all the way down! That pilot should be proud, unless he/she did something stupid that is.
Last edited by courierguy; 11-10-2022 at 10:13 PM.
Big east winds there, two gals. They can repair that one for sure. Not a lot of options at this location they did well!
“We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
^^^^Tailwheel or trike? I see nose wheel in the snow?
Gary
Pa-22
Anyoneknow much about the cub type that went into the Matanuska river upside down near Chickaloon a couple hours ago?
There was a low hand tram crossing there in the past not sure if it is still there. I have not looked for quiet a few years. Paint scheme has become popular around here in the past few years. Hope everyone is ok. Prop is not bent so might have had engine problem.
DENNY
Last edited by DENNY; 11-10-2022 at 08:32 PM.
There are two zip lines that cross up there. In the article own is shown. Its the last picture that shows the platform. Sure wish those were noted on the sectional. Sad day for sure
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...d07rlj0cy8xd5a
Location: Chickaloon Type: Aircraft Crash Fatality
Dispatch Text:
On November 10, 2022, at 12:48 pm, Alaska Wildlife Troopers received a report of an airplane crash located in the Matanuska River near Mile 77 of the Glenn Highway. AWT and AST Troopers responded to the scene. The FAA and NTSB were contacted, and the NTSB arrived on scene shortly after. The Matanuska Dive Team responded and launched their boat to access the site. The adult male pilot was the sole person in the aircraft and was declared deceased on scene. MTR Towing arrived on scene and with the help of the Dive Team were able to remove the aircraft from the river. The body was removed from the fuselage and turned over to a local funeral home vehicle. Further investigation revealed there was another aircraft flying with this aircraft and witnessed the aircraft hit a cable and crash. Next of kin notification procedures are ongoing.
Sadly, I recognize that plane. I sure hope I’m wrong.
I wasn’t wrong. The pilot was Josh Seagrave. Great guy. Beautiful Cub. He’ll be missed.
Holy hell, midair at the Dallas Airshow. Horrible, B17 and P51 I believe, went down in a fireball.
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