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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #1561
    txpacer's Avatar
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    Bigger wires mean bigger problems. This guy hit some cross-country lines. The Air Tractor rep said it was the only one he'd seen where the seat broke and the pilot survived.
    Last edited by txpacer; 03-10-2020 at 08:18 AM.

  2. #1562
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  3. #1563
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    I hit a big wire doing about 130, sliced a wing off and in I went tumbling every direction. It was on fire as soon as I came to a stop, I don’t know how I never lost consciousness, I’d be dead if I did cause the cockpit was completely engulfed in about 30 seconds. The only reason I’m alive is a helmet, shoulder harness, and an Ag Cat. I’ve flown under that wire hundreds of times, but all I takes is one bad judgement to ruin your day. Stay safe.

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  4. #1564
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    Interesting then report stated hit the wire. Rumor was he saw the wire and like Steve dove under but flipped it as a result. (Assuming on water contact)

    In other news....


    https://www.aviationpros.com/aircraf...anic-in-duluth


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  5. #1565
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    That bribery case is a great example of why maintenance personnel need to be 'boarded' by other maintenance types. If you were this kid, how would you like to see a jury of high time mechanics judging your case?

    Web
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  6. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Interesting then report stated hit the wire. Rumor was he saw the wire and like Steve dove under but flipped it as a result. (Assuming on water contact)
    That was the scenario I was thinking given the lack of apparent damage. All in all, a good outcome from a bad situation.
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  7. #1567

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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
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    Is that from "The Wires at Toko-ri"
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  8. #1568
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    For C-206s there's a known issue with egress through the rear cargo doors after upset for passengers, especially when the flaps are still extended. I'll add no more and let those interested read the following Canadian accident report and FAA Airworthiness Concern Sheet. CA is proposing an AD. Note the pilot's experience and training offered. And note the pilot's left hand forward door remained closed while the pilot and one rear passenger exited the left forward window.

    Canadian Final Report: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r.../a18w0129.html
    FAA: https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti..._Door_Exit.pdf

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 03-11-2020 at 02:18 AM.

  9. #1569

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    Never had the experience hitting wires, but spent many years banner towing along the beaches of NJ and NY. Kites are the biggest issue there. Hit a kite string and it will act like a whip saw and cut your wing off! One day after a long day of towing, I found about 100’ of kite string wrapped around the prop hub. Never saw the kite, string, or the fool flying it. I was fortunate I hit it with the prop and not the wing!


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  10. #1570
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Oops, darn it...

    in the comments on facebook, said jet engine part... would think you'd miss having it installed... lots of missing bolts... I don't speak jet engine...

    Anyone know what this is ?? Was thinking it came off a rocket, its about 4 feet in the ground


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  11. #1571

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    Just a loose guess with a 78% chance of error,

    A N Korean nose cone from a missile. Could be an old Chinese or other nation's. Personally I lean towards N Korean since they are still crawling out of the dark ages where Chinese are currently putting most all of our governments satellites in space with multiple launches a month.

  12. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Just a loose guess with a 78% chance of error,

    A N Korean nose cone from a missile. Could be an old Chinese or other nation's. Personally I lean towards N Korean since they are still crawling out of the dark ages where Chinese are currently putting most all of our governments satellites in space with multiple launches a month.
    Look at the open bolt holes. This was removed from something else. There is no evidence of destructive removal. Where was this found?

    N1PA

  13. #1573
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Look at the open bolt holes. This was removed from something else. There is no evidence of destructive removal. Where was this found?

    First photo had location


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  14. #1574
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    AB section off a turbine?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  15. #1575
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I like the comment that it would make a great woodstove

    Gary
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  16. #1576
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    For C-206s there's a known issue with egress through the rear cargo doors after upset for passengers, especially when the flaps are still extended. I'll add no more and let those interested read the following Canadian accident report and FAA Airworthiness Concern Sheet. CA is proposing an AD. Note the pilot's experience and training offered. And note the pilot's left hand forward door remained closed while the pilot and one rear passenger exited the left forward window.

    Canadian Final Report: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r.../a18w0129.html
    FAA: https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti..._Door_Exit.pdf

    Gary
    Maybe 20 years ago or more the guy who taught me to fly let a student (owner of the plane) land an amphib equipped 206 with the gear down in the East River in NYC. The two in the front got out but the girl in the back couldn’t get the door open because flaps were down. When he realized she was still in the plane he went under and guided her out through the front. Then he swallowed a large helping of river water. She popped up ok, he popped up like a harpooned whale. My buddy ended up in the hospital but they were all ok.
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  17. #1577
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Re C-206: "The (left) window-retaining arm had been removed from the occurrence aircraft" The window could then be fully opened and likely saved some. Bubble windows don't open as much. Pilot seat still full forward? (that's how she flew due to height plus wore no shoulder harness) and all the doors still locked. Reach in through open window and unlatch door? Lots of potential tangles to get caught on (belts and loose floor covering). I rode in C-205 and 206 on floats but never flew. Was told to unazz the plane via the pilot door if possible and kept a knife handy to cut things.

    Edit: Found another review of C-206 egress issues: https://smartpilot.ca/airmanship/air...ing-floatplane

    And apparently they offered a left cargo door on the earlier C-205 (https://www.marvgolden.com/downloads...ok_excerpt.pdf).

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 03-18-2020 at 10:00 PM.
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  18. #1578
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Look at the open bolt holes. This was removed from something else. There is no evidence of destructive removal. Where was this found?


    Looks to have lost all top bolts and still bolted to bottom attachment ring??

    Somewhere in the world, someone is missing part of a jet engine..... hopefully they noticed...

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  19. #1579
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Nice one mike, you found it.
    N1PA

  20. #1580
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Re C-206: "The (left) window-retaining arm had been removed from the occurrence aircraft" The window could then be fully opened and likely saved some. Bubble windows don't open as much. Pilot seat still full forward? (that's how she flew due to height plus wore no shoulder harness) and all the doors still locked. Reach in through open window and unlatch door? Lots of potential tangles to get caught on (belts and loose floor covering). I rode in C-205 and 206 on floats but never flew. Was told to unazz the plane via the pilot door if possible and kept a knife handy to cut things.

    Edit: Found another review of C-206 egress issues: https://smartpilot.ca/airmanship/air...ing-floatplane

    And apparently they offered a left cargo door on the earlier C-205 (https://www.marvgolden.com/downloads...ok_excerpt.pdf).

    Gary
    Gary,

    The 205 and P-206 both had a much smaller passenger door on the left for back seat pax to use. The much more common U-206 is the subject of these discussions. I don’t believe the 205 or P-206 were float approved, though I seem to recall someone at Wipaire was trying to get a P 206 approved on floats.

    Wipaire also offers a right side Co-pilot door, which would help in an upset.

    MTV
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  21. #1581
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    ...Wipaire also offers a right side Co-pilot door, which would help in an upset. MTV
    Thanks Mike. It was 1966 so the 205 might have been a 206, although I recall a cowl nose bump. Afton Coon had it in Sitka plus an assortment of floatplanes including a Norseman and twin Piper.

    A second door would be nice but it's also a good idea to try to open the pilots door if pressure and time allow. It seems like a quick up-flap command might help unless it's jammed against the fuselage.

    What pre-flight briefing did you do when flying a similar plane?

    Gary

  22. #1582
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Thanks Mike. It was 1966 so the 205 might have been a 206, although I recall a cowl nose bump. Afton Coon had it in Sitka plus an assortment of floatplanes including a Norseman and twin Piper.

    A second door would be nice but it's also a good idea to try to open the pilots door if pressure and time allow. It seems like a quick up-flap command might help unless it's jammed against the fuselage.

    What pre-flight briefing did you do when flying a similar plane?

    Gary
    Gary,

    I decided that the aft cargo door was not a viable emergency exit. Also, since I was nearly always carrying both passengers and their gear, plus some gas, I never used the third row (aft) seats. A lot of times, because of big loads and two pax, with stuff like rafts and motors, etc, in fact we were operating with just three up. In that case, I removed the right side middle seat, and put the one rear passenger in left center row seat.

    As a result, I briefed passengers that the cargo door was not a viable emergency egress point. They all got briefed on how to open it with flaps down, in case it got really weird, by lowering flaps during pre flight and demo. That generally convinced them that upside down under water, that is not an exit.

    Point is, Any of the above loading scenarios resulted in essentially the same situation as a 185. Egress through pilots door.

    Really the only situation where you can use those aft seats is air tours, where there’s no gear and little gas. I wouldn’t use all those seats in a 206 in that situation. Find a better tool for that job.

    MTV
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  23. #1583
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    wasn't there a separate thread on this crash?

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ry-passengers/

  24. #1584

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    wasn't there a separate thread on this crash?

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ry-passengers/
    Interesting and not at all surprising. Having done work for the Collings family a few decades back this is a fair finding. Kind of sad as well since Rob Collings has done allot to build up air tours, His dad however is frightening.

  25. #1585
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    wasn't there a separate thread on this crash?

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ry-passengers/
    Man, those are scary findings.....

    MTV
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  26. #1586

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    Lets add in these facts about the Collings family and the many unnecessary airplane crashes,
    https://www.wbur.org/bostonomix/2019...e-crash-record

    Other things not listed here were failed ramp checks such as at Bradley Field about 15 or 20 years back where these two planes were grounded for months due to lack of maintenance and documentation. I can not pull up the articles on this due to the band width from today's news but I am personally aware of that event.

    I am sure Bob Collings will lash out with all his financial might since he will never let authority stand in his way.

  27. #1587

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    Here is a link to Collings other B-17 that is close to coming online.
    http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b17re...7-4483785.html
    Curious what the outcome of this will be.
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  28. #1588

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    Dan Gryder, DC3 instructor, has weighed in on the Collings Foundation. The pilot could really fly a B-17, to the point he flew it all by himself, with ballast in the right seat. There was no CRM, and the organization had no SMS as required at any warbird ride operation. Not insufficient, just none. The pilot was also the maint chief, conflict of interest.

    He thinks Mac feathered 4 on reflex, as that was the one they were fiddling with. But it was really 3, and unfeathering takes forever. Feathering is a quick push of a button, the copilot might not have known what was going on. The 3rd guy survived and has said he was clueless. It was Mac's airplane.
    What's a go-around?

  29. #1589

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    One of the first "Eye witness reports" said the plane flew over him and he called out #3 was misfiring. So there is a fair bit of logic to this comment. But in the time it took to fly the downwind leg should have been enough to get #4 back online, if they recognized the issue and if it was even able to. Keep in mind #4 had it's share of issues and bringing it back online might have been the wrong thing to do.
    Either way 2 or 3 people up front there made mistakes during the flight not to mention the many that have been done for decades in that organization.
    I still question why they did not shorten their run and bring it in on 33.
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  30. #1590

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    He was turning away from the two good engines, banking so slightly they were 4 miles out on downwind. Cutting power and cranking for 33 would leave him 4 mi out at 800ft. He did well getting it around to 6 and not over banking.
    Last edited by Skywalker; 03-30-2020 at 10:21 AM.
    What's a go-around?

  31. #1591
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    These multi engine accidents make me think about training, and the need to do it often. I don't know anything about the organization that owns the B-17, but I see a similar pattern of behavior as the local Twin Comanche crash a couple years ago: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/195708.

    Maneuvering with engines out is a challenge, and as we can see has serious consequences. One thing I did figure out in my training is that an unfeathered engine is much less burden and danger than shutting down an engine giving you power.

    Without being in the plane and knowing all that was going on, hard to say a different runway was a better option. Sometimes it might be better to bank into the good engines and turn 270 instead of a 90 to keep your bank in, but we can not know-

    Maybe we can learn, and those of you with time in big birds like these can help us understand lest we make the same mistakes.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  32. #1592
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    I'm going to throw out a differing opinion......How to read between the lines. The ONLY thing the FAA knows, or cares about, is the paperwork. I spent time in the military and that is all that matters.

    Specifically, the FAA found that Collings failed to train the aircraft crew chief, as specified in its operating guidelines. “In an interview with the FAA on March 2, 2020, the crew chief verified that he received no initial training and was unaware of basic information concerning operations under the exemption. Instead, he only received on-the-job training. This lack of training indicates Collings failed to fulfill the terms of condition and limitation Nos. 4 and 7,” the FAA’s document said. The two limitations require specific training and "documentation". What this means is someone did not make a form on Microsoft word that said So and So received training in the following subjects..... Then you make a bunch of lines with little boxes that the employee initials and put that "form" in a black notebook with TRAINING in big black letters on the spine of the notebook. Further, the crew chief told the FAA he was unaware that a safety and risk management program existed at all for the foundation. “This absence of awareness and lack of training establishes that Collings failed to maintain and apply on a continuous basis a safety and risk management program that met or exceeded the criteria specified in the FAA Policy,” the rescission document said. Again....you create a form that says...This foundation adheres to all safety regulations and Safety is the highest priority etc ad
    nauseaum. Then you take the same document and add a signatory line and have each employee sign it so you have 30 papers in the notebook. Then you add a few more BS items in the notebook....write SAFETY PROGRAM is big black letters on the spine and Presto you have a "safety culture and program". Oh yeah....you need a safety poster on the wall....that is really important....

    I have no doubt there may have been problems but read between the lines folks. Perhaps I'm cynical but I have seen it over and over. In a beauacracy all that matters is the paperwork. Not the actual maintenance or anything else. No paperwork.... it did not happen....regardless of the actual facts. They did not have a safety notebook, or a poster on the wall, therefore they had no safety culture.

    After all.....( and how many times have you seen this) "the mishap pilot did not file a flight plan" (like that had ANYTHING to do with the mishap) and therefore he must have not done any planning at all.

    Just something to consider.....

    Cynically yours

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-30-2020 at 12:08 PM.
    Very Blessed.
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  33. #1593

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    Bill, I see and understand your points. But it looks to me like there are real functional airworthiness gaps also.
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  34. #1594

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    These multi engine accidents make me think about training, and the need to do it often. I don't know anything about the organization that owns the B-17, but I see a similar pattern of behavior as the local Twin Comanche crash a couple years ago: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/195708.

    Maneuvering with engines out is a challenge, and as we can see has serious consequences. One thing I did figure out in my training is that an unfeathered engine is much less burden and danger than shutting down an engine giving you power.

    Without being in the plane and knowing all that was going on, hard to say a different runway was a better option. Sometimes it might be better to bank into the good engines and turn 270 instead of a 90 to keep your bank in, but we can not know-

    Maybe we can learn, and those of you with time in big birds like these can help us understand lest we make the same mistakes.
    One big mistake is they let the plane slow down. Obviously not good especially when you need to turn into the two bad engines, the two critical engines on that plane.
    Second, dragging the plane 10-15+ miles with two engines down while doing two 180s into the bad engines.
    Runway 33 is 6700 feet and was just a simple 270 turn from where they were and still had momentum.

    And Bill, there are no flight plans filed at these events, ever.

  35. #1595

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    Dan Gryder talks about the time it takes to unfeather and the time for gear extention. Maybe he couldn't get the gear back down in time for 33. Anyway a 270 away from the airport with a wounded bird below pattern altitude would require certainty he could maintain altitude. As it turns out, he couldn't maintain with slight banking. The radio calls indicate he was perhaps overloaded. (let #2 handle the radio) and definitely not wanting to show any distress. He knew any investigation would be bad.
    What's a go-around?

  36. #1596

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    The 270 would have been a 3 mile circle. No tight banks needed. The gear comes down in less than 15 seconds.
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  37. #1597

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    I'm going to throw out a differing opinion......How to read between the lines. The ONLY thing the FAA knows, or cares about, is the paperwork. I spent time in the military and that is all that matters.

    Specifically, the FAA found that Collings failed to train the aircraft crew chief, as specified in its operating guidelines. “In an interview with the FAA on March 2, 2020, the crew chief verified that he received no initial training and was unaware of basic information concerning operations under the exemption. Instead, he only received on-the-job training. This lack of training indicates Collings failed to fulfill the terms of condition and limitation Nos. 4 and 7,” the FAA’s document said. The two limitations require specific training and "documentation". What this means is someone did not make a form on Microsoft word that said So and So received training in the following subjects..... Then you make a bunch of lines with little boxes that the employee initials and put that "form" in a black notebook with TRAINING in big black letters on the spine of the notebook. Further, the crew chief told the FAA he was unaware that a safety and risk management program existed at all for the foundation. “This absence of awareness and lack of training establishes that Collings failed to maintain and apply on a continuous basis a safety and risk management program that met or exceeded the criteria specified in the FAA Policy,” the rescission document said. Again....you create a form that says...This foundation adheres to all safety regulations and Safety is the highest priority etc ad
    nauseaum. Then you take the same document and add a signatory line and have each employee sign it so you have 30 papers in the notebook. Then you add a few more BS items in the notebook....write SAFETY PROGRAM is big black letters on the spine and Presto you have a "safety culture and program". Oh yeah....you need a safety poster on the wall....that is really important....

    I have no doubt there may have been problems but read between the lines folks. Perhaps I'm cynical but I have seen it over and over. In a beauacracy all that matters is the paperwork. Not the actual maintenance or anything else. No paperwork.... it did not happen....regardless of the actual facts. They did not have a safety notebook, or a poster on the wall, therefore they had no safety culture.

    After all.....( and how many times have you seen this) "the mishap pilot did not file a flight plan" (like that had ANYTHING to do with the mishap) and therefore he must have not done any planning at all.

    Just something to consider.....

    Cynically yours

    Bill
    Every organization I have been involved with has a culture, usually reflective of those in charge. If a positive, try our best to do things right culture doesn’t already exist, it is my opinion that no amount of required training, manuals or programs will change that. If that culture already exists, adding burdensome new program compliance requirements (i.e. SMS) won’t make the operation safer.

  38. #1598
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Hamon View Post
    Bill, I see and understand your points. But it looks to me like there are real functional airworthiness gaps also.
    I forgot to make that point earlier. Small Issues with maintenance irregularities can become alarmingly important when the big noise maker gets quiet. The Comanche had an electrical issue that the pilot has been flying with for quite a while. It caught up to him.

    Bill is correct, lots of paper shuffling for jobs out there, but at times it is nice to know the mechanic did indeed tighten down those spark plug leads!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  39. #1599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    .... "documentation". What this means is someone did not make a form on Microsoft word that said So and So received training in the following subjects..... Then you make a bunch of lines with little boxes that the employee initials and put that "form" in a black notebook with TRAINING in big black letters on the spine of the notebook. ....
    Again....you create a form that says...This foundation adheres to all safety regulations and Safety is the highest priority etc ad
    nauseaum. Then you take the same document and add a signatory line and have each employee sign it so you have 30 papers in the notebook. Then you add a few more BS items in the notebook....write SAFETY PROGRAM is big black letters on the spine and Presto you have a "safety culture and program". Oh yeah....you need a safety poster on the wall....that is really important....
    I have no doubt there may have been problems but read between the lines folks. Perhaps I'm cynical but I have seen it over and over. In a beauacracy all that matters is the paperwork. Not the actual maintenance or anything else. No paperwork.... it did not happen....regardless of the actual facts. They did not have a safety notebook, or a poster on the wall, therefore they had no safety culture.....
    I worked on a big construction project at a navy base about 9 years ago.
    Before I came on the job, a guy walking was killed when he was run over by an scraper or similar.
    The military is real big on "safety", read Bill's comments above for definition of that.
    And it only got worse after the guy was killed.
    And an awful lot of it was BS.
    Daily safety meetings for each crew, weekly group safety meetings for everyone on the job.
    Overkill re safety harnesses etc-- for example, you had to wear a harness & tie off any time you were more than 2 feet off the ground--
    as in the third step on an 6 foot ladder.
    Unfortunately, the overhead (where you would normally tie off to) was way up there.
    Q: "What do we tie off to?" A: "tie off to the ladder itself".
    Anyone who's ever worked construction knows how stupid that is,
    and more dangerous than not tying off.
    For example: "how'd you get hurt?"..."fell off the ladder, pulled it down on me, & it broke my nose".
    You'd be cited by a navy safety officer (which there were a lot of) if caught breaking any of the BS rules--
    1st time home with no pay for 2 days, second time you'd be fired.
    I believe in being safe, but this job took things past safety into the realm of ridiculous.
    But like Bill said, all the forms were filled out & boxes checked so all was good.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes skywagon8a liked this post

  40. #1600

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    The lack of paperwork didn't cause the crash but the excerpts of that crew chief's interview/testimony are damning and if they don't have serious documentation to prove otherwise the outcome, while likely long and drawn out, is predictable and the said part beyond the deaths that regardless of any releases they have in their file they will most certainty be held financially accountable for but beyond that they paint the entire war bird community with a broad brush.

    My only direct experience with the foundation was when on vacation last year I left my 180 on an FBO's tie-down that I had reserved and when I came back Nine-0-Nine sitting where I left my 180. So I politely asked and was pointed to a far-away ramp and when I got there I found this ramp didn't have tie-downs and could easily see where my 180 had jumped the chalks (you could see skid marks from the mains) in the previous nights wind storm. After a bit a line guy showed up as I was inspecting and when I confronted him he told me "the Collings guys wanted your spot when they got here two days ago so they wouldn't have to walk so far and we moved you over here." When it became obvious that my head was about to explode he got on his radio and PDQ the FBO manager came out in a golf cart and at first denied everything, said the line guy didn't know what he was talking about and then finally said they only moved it just before I arrived so I asked him why it was sideways to the world, out of the chalks, and facing into last nights storm direction and showed him the skid marks and after I asked if it was tough to tow almost a 1/2 mile with the breaks set he bugged out. Once we decided to get out of there I hiked back to the FBO to hit the head and was finally calming down when I overheard the manager telling some guy in a flight suit that I was PO'd because they moved my plane out of the way and the flight suit said "screw him" and trotted over to meet his next back-seater. When the manager turned around and saw me standing there he tried to calm me down by offering a 25 cent/gallon fuel credit and I told him that I wouldn't buy fuel from him at gunpoint and I later had to protest the credit card charge for the tie-down that he said would be waved. Point being, from my exposure, I don't believe the foundation gave a crap about anyone but them and in my case they found an FBO that gave them the run of the place, the crash was just short of three months later.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 03-31-2020 at 02:37 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
    Thanks CharlieN, WindOnHisNose, fancypants, JeffP thanked for this post

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