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Oops, darn it...

And that’s a guy who’s setting himself up for....what? It becomes a “nothing call” on wheels, and if you play that game sooner or later, you’ll get them mixed up.

Discipline, not rote. Geeez!

MTV

I rarely find myself disagreeing with MTV, but I will disagree on this one. I fly multiple airframes in multiple configurations. It was drilled into me to specifically verify the gear type and condition and the landing surface that it applies to on every single landing. Just because the airplane isn't set up for multiple surfaces doesn't mean a critical landing surface error can't happen. A couple years ago a gentleman landed in the water at Soldotna with wheels installed. He was going to Soldotna and the airplane was to have floats installed and then that was the lake he would have operated off of.

I agree that it needs to be deliberate, not rote, but I encourage pilots to apply a thoughtful examination of the gear and surface as part of the GUMPS process or whatever other pre-landing checklist is in use.
 
How do you determine the tires are inflated? My truck and car have a pressure readout for each tire. Is this system available for planes now?

More of a conscious look at the tires to confirm what is on the plane and what surface I should be considering.

Troy's comment about different types of gear is correct, sometimes a person can fly multiple equipment configurations, even on the same plane. That conscious look is even more important the more tired you are.
 
This is what is left of an Experimental Taylorcraft that a friend of mine built about 25 years ago.. it had an 0-320 Lycoming.. 4th owner.. Engine lost power but was still running.. Almost made it to the field but hit a wire about 12 feet off the ground that is used for drying hemp.. Both guys got out before it burned up.. only reason those guys are walking is due to shoulder harness that were installed... Weather was clear but very cold with enough humidity for perfect icing conditions.. The way he describes the way it was running I’m sure that is what happened..

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Before in better days...

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Brian...


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I rarely find myself disagreeing with MTV, but I will disagree on this one. I fly multiple airframes in multiple configurations. It was drilled into me to specifically verify the gear type and condition and the landing surface that it applies to on every single landing. Just because the airplane isn't set up for multiple surfaces doesn't mean a critical landing surface error can't happen. A couple years ago a gentleman landed in the water at Soldotna with wheels installed. He was going to Soldotna and the airplane was to have floats installed and then that was the lake he would have operated off of.

I agree that it needs to be deliberate, not rote, but I encourage pilots to apply a thoughtful examination of the gear and surface as part of the GUMPS process or whatever other pre-landing checklist is in use.

It doesn’t sound like we’re really much in disagreement. As I said: “Discipline, not rote”. Nothing wrong with looking out the window to verify that you HAVE landing gear, but a person who lands a wheel plane in a lake has some serious issues going on......and shouldn’t be flying. I’m guessing that pilot was missing a couple other things.

My point is, I’ve seen folks going through a GUMP check in a Cub, which is fine.....but they never looked out the window. If they’ll do that, the procedure has become rote, and perhaps useless.

So, here’s a question, if that’s the attitude: Do you also “pretend” to decrease prop rpm after takeoff in a Cub? How about activating de-ice at the first sign of visible moisture in cold temps, or......?

My argument is that your head should be in THAT airplane, not some generic concept of an airplane.

And, a number of very experienced aviators have actually completed a GUMPS check in their new to them amphibian, just before landing in the water, gear down. A friend with over 20,000 hours did that.

Fly the airplane you are IN, is my philosophy. That’s based on quite a bit of time going from one type to another frequently.

But, whatever WORKS for you is fine with me. Just don’t EVER forget that you CAN make the big boo boo....trust me.

MTV
 
And that’s a guy who’s setting himself up for....what? It becomes a “nothing call” on wheels, and if you play that game sooner or later, you’ll get them mixed up.

Discipline, not rote. Geeez!

MTV

I was flying with a guy in a V tail bonanza. He is running through his checklist “avionics master on, brakes off” and we taxi out to call ground. He calls ground. Oh weird the avionics aren’t on. He did a bunch, almost all check list items. Calls them out way too fast but doesn’t DO them. Same guy who took off and got 30 miles away before looking out the windshield.


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A paved runway....is how long? A Husky, even on floats, should be airborne in what..seven hundred feet?

One thing I’ve ALWAYS done on amphibs: Lift off, positive rate-gear is coming up....right now. For this reason. If you get a weird big sink, worst case, you touch on the keels, not a huge deal.....but, water just off the end....gear is up and housed...

Sorry, folks, this stuff is going to make amphibious floats impossible to insure.

Ask Lake Aircraft how that works. They were able to overcome their problem (wasn’t people landing gear down on water) and develop mandatory training programs. But, all the hundreds of thousands of $$ spent on gadgets, and we’re still doing this....regularly.

MTV

Saw on Facebook on the lake group, the insurance went up 98% this year.


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I like my old edo anfibs. On one hand it sucks pumping it 150 times, over 2 min, but you know the gear is up. Even when you just landed on water, and took off from water, check the gear before landing. We are landing on_____ and the gear is _____. Then look out and see the gear is in the right spot. Don’t be in a rush and don’t get suckered into someplace, just like off airport flying. Don’t be on downwind at the airport and see your buddy on the lake and go land to say hi. Like was said above go around. You get distracted go around and try it again.


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I was flying with a guy in a V tail bonanza. He is running through his checklist “avionics master on, brakes off” and we taxi out to call ground. He calls ground. Oh weird the avionics aren’t on. He did a bunch, almost all check list items. Calls them out way too fast but doesn’t DO them. Same guy who took off and got 30 miles away before looking out the windshield.


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It might be time to have a talk about Cockpit Management, Flows, DO Lists and Check Lists.
 
I teach in a TwinBee and find this is a easy airplane to get distracted in. I encourage getting the before landing check list done early them on base and final verbal and vis. Check the gear is where you want it. As stated above discipline, and to me that means never ever be lazy.
 
I teach in a TwinBee and find this is a easy airplane to get distracted in. I encourage getting the before landing check list done early them on base and final verbal and vis. Check the gear is where you want it. As stated above discipline, and to me that means never ever be lazy.

I need an instrument proficiency check, and some more twin time... Where is the Bee, or where will it be in fall and how much do you charge?
 
It’s in Northern NY, the owner and his friends are the only people we fly in it. The insurance is hard right now, crazy mins.
I’ll be back in Seldovia by May if they lift the travel restrictions some and I get the vaccine shots. I’d be happy to fly with you if we can find a twin for you.
 
I was flying with a guy in a V tail bonanza. He is running through his checklist “avionics master on, brakes off” and we taxi out to call ground. He calls ground. Oh weird the avionics aren’t on. ....

I agree with MTV about how a lot of these checklist recitations are done by rote.
I was in the back seat of a friend's Apache on a training flight when he was working on his instrument ticket.
Did all his checklist stuff early, & on final, did his "centerline check":
"three green, props to go".
Only I think his CFI pulled the breaker or something on the gear,
so he didn't really have 3 green....
But I guess he was used to saying it without really seeing it.
Continued down to a pretty short final & finally the instructor asked him if it might not be a good idea to put the gear down.
Pretty funny, but you can sure see what could easily happen in a real-world situation.
 
A C170A went missing last week and is presumed crashed in the Strait of Juan de Fuca south of Vancouver island BC.
It was on a flight from Ketchikan non-stop to Pt Angeles WA-- just over 600 miles.
That's really stretching it with stock 42 gallon tanks, even with calm winds & no detouring.
The general consensus here is that it ran out of fuel, pretty much within sight of Pt Angeles.
So close and yet so far.....very sad.
My takeaway from this is don't stretch your fuel:
"when in doubt...don't".

Kathryn's Report: Cessna 170A, N9114A: Fatal accident occurred in Port Angeles, Washington

Pilot information has been released:

Downed pilot identified as man from Kodiak, Alaska | Peninsula Daily News
 
I agree with MTV about how a lot of these checklist recitations are done by rote.
I was in the back seat of a friend's Apache on a training flight when he was working on his instrument ticket.
Did all his checklist stuff early, & on final, did his "centerline check":
"three green, props to go".
Only I think his CFI pulled the breaker or something on the gear,
so he didn't really have 3 green....
But I guess he was used to saying it without really seeing it.
Continued down to a pretty short final & finally the instructor asked him if it might not be a good idea to put the gear down.
Pretty funny, but you can sure see what could easily happen in a real-world situation.

On my commercial ride the DPE said “all we have left is steep spirals and engine out to a spot landing, ya want to throw them together?”
After we rolled to a stop he said “not bad, your checklist callout was perfect but you were holding the checklist upside down”


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I find it a bit frightening when a preliminary report concentrates on the ski's while the outer wing is the first part down and the inner wing is with the empennage.
How about that right lift strut and lower cabin structure? If it were a strut related failure it would be interesting how or why the wing separated in the middle and landed apart from the rest.
 
Ski failure is the first thing most of us Skywagon guys thought of. There's a historical precedent and initially this report sounded familiar. Obviously there's more to the story.
 
Maybe they just wanted to answer the question so many were likely wondering about based on the Canadian accident.
 
In flight? I have not heard that to be common. I can see issues on the ground, clearly I have not kept up to date with skis breaking planes apart in the air.
I recognize issues with rigging failures which I presume is the issue brought up here.
 
If you look at the picture of the Copper Valley wreckage (ref in #2123), there appears to be some red color transfer (ski paint or vegetation?) near the N-number and fuselage crack. The Canadian report above noted a red paint transfer marks from the ski (?) on the tail and wing. Might just be a coincidence.

Gary
 
If you look at the picture of the Copper Valley wreckage (ref in #2123), there appears to be some red color transfer (ski paint or vegetation?) near the N-number and fuselage crack. The Canadian report above noted a red paint transfer marks from the ski (?) on the tail and wing. Might just be a coincidence.

Gary

Aircraft was formerly orange and red. Old paint showing through.

As noted, skis not damaged prior to impact: Page 3 of 5
 
Any ideas on the wing failure yet? Control flutter for the right wing near the yellow arc? It's sad event.

Gary
 
Red paint caught my eye, too. The report said "all skiarresting cables, bungees, and rigging were intact and attached to their respective attach points" so I doubt the paint is from a ski. Can't tell if the gear leg failures are pre-crash or not. Some years ago, I was flying a 185 with FliLite 4000's. I was in a long descent with the skis in the down position and around 140 knots the right ski "tucked", and 'folded up' under the aircraft to hit the fuselage with the ski perpendicular to ground and sideways to the fuselage like a big speed brake. I lost control of the a/c and about 3,000' until it slowed enough to reduce the air pressure holding the ski against the a/c and the gear leg snapped back in position.. Then it started bucking back & forth from the normal position to banging against the a/c. Finally we got slow enough for the gear leg to stay where it was supposed to, about 70 knots. I was able to continue to the airport but found that if I got much faster than 70 knots, the gear would start tucking again. I don't remember ever being worried about the aircraft coming apart as the G loads during the episode were not a big deal IMO but when the ski tucked the nose pointed to the ground until the gear snapped back to normal.

At this point I'm reluctant to suspect a ski failure. Since all the cables were intact, the Canada scenario doesn't apply. If his gear leg tucked like mine did, I can't imagine the a/c coming apart unless he was way up in the yellow arc but the GPS data doesn't suggest that.

I'm curious why the tail and right wing departed in the air. It's almost like the guy did a snap roll and exceeded the limits. But where did the red paint come from? Mid-air collision with a UFO???
 
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