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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #921
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    And in the most recent with the 185, that was not a high energy deceleration.
    From touch down to on it's back and stopped in 3 seconds. That seems like high energy to me.

    N1PA
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  2. #922
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    The energy is really dependent on touchdown speed. I was quite slow on touchdown, (small lake so was doing a short field style arrival), and the flip was very slow. I had plenty of time to cuss, think about where my shotgun was so I could use it to blow my stupid head off, etc. If your touchdown is on the fast side, or if you hit something, the flip can be much more violent.
    Just my somewhat informed opinion.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  3. #923

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    A 3 second deceleration from 60 or 70 is a slow deceleration when it comes to a "crash".
    Back in Y2K I made a mistake with one of my race cars at a local hillclimb, that was 67mph to nearly stopped in two feet. Time for the initial deceleration would be measured in hundredths, my data logging did not measure it. Add to that the car deflected vertically in a roll with the first impact on the driver side roof, going into the second roll I blacked out.
    I came to with the car resting against a tree on the PAX side with the rear overhanging an embankment.
    Initial G load was determined to be in the 60G range, the initial hit was up against the rollcage right at my feet.
    I had some sore ribs for a few weeks, both sides of ribs. Laying down to sleep was not an option for some time.

  4. #924

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    In these recent accidents with loss of life and injury there are other aspects to consider.

    In the mid air, the Beaver was cut apart by the propeller from the Otter. The cabin of the aircraft came down in multiple sections. The poor souls had no chance.

    In the Otter, with those injuries were they all wearing their restraints? I doubt it. Granted that plane had pretty high deceleration as it broke free of it's floats, but that deceleration is spread over time which in some ways reduces injury to the passengers.

    A week later the Beaver tripped on it's own float. This plane was carrying a load of freight as well as a passenger. How well retained was that freight? Jumping to conclusion I expect that freight came forward into the seating area. We should wait for the truth about that.

    And in the most recent with the 185, that was not a high energy deceleration. Granted we do not know what level of agility the soul who passed had, but again, was he properly restrained? One does not need much of an injury along with the disorientation of the tumble to reduce one's chances to get out.

    It is very sad to see injury and death but many times there are complexities that cause most of the personal loss beyond just being in a crash.

    Sorry if this post was too graphic but there are reasons beyond the simple view why there is more injury or loss of life when something goes wrong.
    With no specific reference to any of the recent accidents but related in general terms and a personal point of interest.... there's a reason I added shoulder harnesses to the rear seat positions in my Cessna. My Cubs, too. Gotta be conscious and have your faculties if you need to get out in a hurry. Throughout my daughter's time at home she occupied the front seat and wife took the back. We always thought that was the best placement for mom to assist kiddo in an egress event. One of the things we taught the kid was to NOT slide the seat back. That effectively impedes the rear seater in a Skywagon. Just my own thoughts after another very sad accident. Nothing more. That was a spectacular 185, by the way. One of the nicest I've ever seen.
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  5. #925
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    We value your perspective on this one Bill. Take a look at the speed of that 185 vs whatever your's was in the Cub. And notice that it did not take long for the pilot to extricate himself. I had a high time well qualified float pilot friend who did this in a 185. His passenger escaped, he did not. He apparently was knocked out and drowned, she was not. She stated that as they touched down he said "OH Sh..!" I have also seen the salvage of a 185 which did the same thing. The windshield was smashed and the top of the stabilizer was flattened from the water impact. There are so many little differences which can make for different results. I sincerely hope that I am never able to give a first person report.
    N1PA

  6. #926
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    If I recall correctly there are blocking options for restricting front seat travel in Skywagons. Full forward and I would have had difficulty exiting if upward and out movement was limited. I flew like that but in retrospect less forward travel might have made departing easier especially with an object jammed against the rear of the seat. Then there's the shoulder belt(s) to slip out of on the way.

    Gary

  7. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    In many ways I agree with all you say, your full post, but I watch to the best we can all events that happen considering general aviation accidents and incidents.

    I see a considerably higher percentage of Beech Bonanza and Baron landing gear retractions during roll out than I see failures to select the proper gear position on amphibious aircraft.

    On the Beechcraft they have added a squat switch to one gear leg, but that has not stopped the inadvertent problem. With the gear and flap handles installed such that a simple dyslexic moment allows setting the hull on it's belly when the intention was to simply stow the flaps.

    Then consider the true number of wrong gear position landings in land planes.

    I consider all seaplane operations to take more conscious effort to properly conduct than just flying a common performance aircraft, yet it is the more common aircraft that has more insurable events.

    Might just be me but I do not see amphibian aircraft operations at undue risk as far as rule makers or insurance are concerned.
    The difference: Numbers. Compare the number of Bonanzas, or all retractable gear aircraft with single pilot crews, to the numbers of amphibians. Amphibs represent a minuscule number compared to just Bonanzas, let alone everything else. As a consequence, it doesn’t take many of these accidents to make a really ugly insurance situation. As John noted, amphibs are already horrendously expensive to insure. As the actuarial continue to build, those rates aren’t going to decrease.

    The other HUGE difference: Injuries. In amphibs, landing in the water gear down will almost certainly result in a very difficult egress, whereas most gear ups on a runway don’t result in injuries or difficult egress. There are, of course, exceptions.

    One more issue: Location. Whereas retractable gear up landings generally occur at airports, amphib gear down in water accidents often happen far from an airport. Many airports have fire, crash and rescue. Not so much out where most folks take their amphibious Aircraft.

    Stewart makes a good point regarding rear seats. How many seaplanes (or wheelplanes) out there are not equipped with shoulder harnesses in the back seats? That can be a recipe for disaster if a water egress is needed. It’s one thing to successfully overcome disorientation after an accident and find a door, release your belt, etc. But escape is highly unlikely if you’re unconscious from bashing your head on the pilot or copilot seat back.

    MTV
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  8. #928

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    MTV/Mike is right on amphib insurance. Not many of them and risk is very high per Mike's outlines, exactly why insurance companies want the high rates.
    When I had Widgeons I could not get hull insurance at a rate that was even close to acceptable, so only had liability. Widgeons when landing in the water with gear down instantly rips the nose right off and it goes upside down too. Friend of mine did it, passenger only got broken ankle, pilot who had Widgeons for years was pretty embarrassed. Just took off form land strip and landed in water. Under rebuild now. Most amphibs do that instant turnover, thus the expensive insurance risk/high rates. And throw in Alaska it is pretty high risk.
    Had my Kodiak on amphibs, insurance quote was $22,000, $9700 on wheels for example. I sold the amphibs as could not justify the added cost or need for them. Besides trying to find a hangar it would even fit in!
    John

  9. #929

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    The video of the Beaver flipping over in post#902 is instructive. Landing on floats with any crab or slip will scare the bejesus out of you as touchdown straightens you out, lightning fast. There is no reaction time or controllability. The Beaver had a little too much and its fate was sealed.

    Prayers for all those involved.
    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 05-23-2019 at 07:23 PM. Reason: I referenced the incorrect post. Should be post#902 instead of 907

  10. #930
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Passengers are sometimes minimally asked or instructed in the use of seat belts and harnesses. Put them on - wear them - any questions? I've yet to ride in a Part 91 or 135 land or sea where removal of the setup was demonstrated and reinforced and why that's important...same for door egress although the latter is sometimes mentioned. I was guilty of that with passengers but in later years after upset training I shared what I could before flight. Something for all of us to consider. Dealing with restraints when shocked is difficult. Rear passengers can encounter and get tangled with front seat restraints so note that in the briefing.

    Gary
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  11. #931
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    whoops.... gonna take government lots of research to figure out why it flipped.... sure.... once they find the plane again...

    https://www.ktva.com/story/40527875/...ed-near-valdez

  12. #932
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    From AIN -

    The release Wednesday of the preliminary report for the NTSB’s investigation of the May 13 fatal midair near Ketchikan, Alaska between a float-equipped de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver and a float-equipped de Havilland DHC-3 Turbine Otter was accompanied by Safety Board criticism of for-hire operations.

    Both aircraft involved in the accident were operating under Part 135 in VMC. “This is one in a string of recent accidents involving for-hire aircraft,” the Safety Board said. “So was the Beaver that crashed Monday in Alaska and the helicopter that crashed in Hawaii April 29.”

    Probable causes have not been determined in any of the accidents cited, but NTSB chairman Robert Sumwalt said, “Each crash underscores the urgency of improving the safety of charter flights by implementing existing NTSB safety recommendations. The need for those improvements is why the NTSB put Part 135 aircraft flight operations on the 2019-2020 Most Wanted list of transportation safety improvements.”

    The NTSB’s recommendations call on Part 135 operators to implement safety management systems, record and analyze flight data, and ensure pilots receive controlled flight into terrain-avoidance training. “A customer who pays for a ticket should trust that the operator is using the industry’s best practices when it comes to safety,’’ said Sumwalt.

    Both aircraft were transporting passengers to Ketchikan from the Misty Fjords National Monument area. Flight track data revealed the Otter was traveling southwest about 3,700 feet msl and gradually descending at 126 knots when it crossed the east side of the George Inlet. The Beaver was traveling west/southwest about 3,350 feet msl at 107 knots when it crossed the east side of the George Inlet. The airplanes collided at about 3,350 feet msl near the west side of the George Inlet. The Otter pilot said he was maneuvering the airplane to show passengers a waterfall when the collision occurred.


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  13. #933
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    whoops.... gonna take government lots of research to figure out why it flipped.... sure.... once they find the plane again...

    https://www.ktva.com/story/40527875/...ed-near-valdez
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I thought that we resolved the question days ago? They should ask us and they won't even need to travel to Alaska to find the answer.
    N1PA
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  14. #934
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Never did amphib just wheel skis. Do they pump both ways? Can they fall without intentional activation? Maybe there's more to learn here.

    Gary

  15. #935
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Never did amphib just wheel skis. Do they pump both ways? Can they fall without intentional activation? Maybe there's more to learn here.

    Gary
    Gary, The gear is hydraulically powered in both directions. It appears in the photo that all four are down and locked. If it was possible for a failure to drop a gear, it would be extremely unlikely that all four would end up in this position. One or maybe two in one float is possible, but not all four. With this type of nose gear it takes hydraulic power for the nose gear to extend out of the float in order to fall towards the down position and complete power to get them to the locked position.
    N1PA
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  16. #936
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Gary, The gear is hydraulically powered in both directions. It appears in the photo that all four are down and locked. If it was possible for a failure to drop a gear, it would be extremely unlikely that all four would end up in this position. One or maybe two in one float is possible, but not all four. With this type of nose gear it takes hydraulic power for the nose gear to extend out of the float in order to fall towards the down position and complete power to get them to the locked position.
    and if you think about it..... you decelerate instantly & unexpectantly, it lurches you forward, holding onto... #1 the wheel/elevator control - pitching nose down, #2 throttle - shoving it in to high power....

    ????

  17. #937
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    and if you think about it..... you decelerate instantly & unexpectantly, it lurches you forward, holding onto... #1 the wheel/elevator control - pitching nose down, #2 throttle - shoving it in to high power....

    ????
    mike, You will find that at landing speeds with that sudden large amount of water drag the position of the elevators will have no effect at all. Just landing too nose low without any landing gear being involved, it takes all of the up elevator to hold up the nose all the while the pilot wishing he had more. The water drag is way more powerful than the small amount of air flowing over the elevators at less than stall airspeed.

    As for the power, even if the throttle were pushed wide open I doubt that the engine would react in that small amount of time for it to have any effect.

    I used to have a friend who had his own machine shop and employed one person just to rebuild and make airplane parts. He even made his own rivets for a Scan Widgeon that he was working on when he went west. He rebuilt a nice Beaver. Then he designed and built his own set of floats for it which were a bit bigger than EDO's Beaver floats. They were a nice set of floats which he never did get approved though that was his intent. He got the bright idea that if he could make a set of fixed position landing gear which didn't hang as far below the floats as a normal amphib gear does that he could save the retraction mechanism complexity and weight. He mounted a small deflector ahead of the main gear to act as a sort of ski. He was advised not to land it in the water by several people. But he did anyway. It almost instantaneously went up on it's nose and stopped with the tail straight up and the engine resting on the shallow bottom.
    N1PA
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  18. #938

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    I presume this all took place in the West, South-West portion of Massachusetts?

  19. #939
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Actually Western South-East near New Bedford.
    N1PA

  20. #940

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Actually Western South-East near New Bedford.
    Ahh, different man.

  21. #941
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Ahh, different man.
    There was a man who had a hangar full of Seabees at his home on South Pond (?) southwest of Springfield. Is it he who you are thinking of?
    N1PA
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  22. #942

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    There was a man who had a hangar full of Seabees at his home on South Pond (?) southwest of Springfield. Is it he who you are thinking of?
    I had not thought about Southwick, 5MA8 I was thinking of out at GBR.
    I landed on South pond once, but that was in the C150 on ice.
    We also had a half dozen Seabees at Simsbury (4b9) in the late '60s when I started there.

  23. #943
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    mike, You will find that at landing speeds with that sudden large amount of water drag the position of the elevators will have no effect at all. Just landing too nose low without any landing gear being involved, it takes all of the up elevator to hold up the nose all the while the pilot wishing he had more. The water drag is way more powerful than the small amount of air flowing over the elevators at less than stall airspeed.

    As for the power, even if the throttle were pushed wide open I doubt that the engine would react in that small amount of time for it to have any effect.

    I used to have a friend who had his own machine shop and employed one person just to rebuild and make airplane parts. He even made his own rivets for a Scan Widgeon that he was working on when he went west. He rebuilt a nice Beaver. Then he designed and built his own set of floats for it which were a bit bigger than EDO's Beaver floats. They were a nice set of floats which he never did get approved though that was his intent. He got the bright idea that if he could make a set of fixed position landing gear which didn't hang as far below the floats as a normal amphib gear does that he could save the retraction mechanism complexity and weight. He mounted a small deflector ahead of the main gear to act as a sort of ski. He was advised not to land it in the water by several people. But he did anyway. It almost instantaneously went up on it's nose and stopped with the tail straight up and the engine resting on the shallow bottom.
    Jerry Lawhorn was our Chief of Maintenance for many years, at Lake Hood. He told me a story once about one of our amphib Beavers landing in LHD gear down. Jerry said it was late in the evening in a summer day, and he’d just finished up paperwork and was locking up the shop, heading home, when he saw one of our Beavers about to touch down on the West channel, with gear down on Bristol Aero 4580s.

    Nothing he could do but watch. He said the pilot had the plane nicely slowed down, nose pitched level with power, dragging it in. Plane touched, and immediately went up almost on its nose, hung there for a moment, then splashed down onto its floats.

    I asked Jerry what he did next. He said “I got in my car and went home”. He said he never mentioned it to the pilot, and never told me who the pilot was, but that I knew him. Jerry said he figured the guy had a vivid learning experience, and really didn’t need any piling on. Jerry did say he and his maintenance crew took a REALLY good look at that plane the next day, though.

    MTV

  24. #944
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Touch down speed makes a big difference.
    N1PA
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  25. #945

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  26. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Jerry Lawhorn was our Chief of Maintenance for many years, at Lake Hood. He told me a story once about one of our amphib Beavers landing in LHD gear down. Jerry said it was late in the evening in a summer day, and he’d just finished up paperwork and was locking up the shop, heading home, when he saw one of our Beavers about to touch down on the West channel, with gear down on Bristol Aero 4580s.

    Nothing he could do but watch. He said the pilot had the plane nicely slowed down, nose pitched level with power, dragging it in. Plane touched, and immediately went up almost on its nose, hung there for a moment, then splashed down onto its floats.

    I asked Jerry what he did next. He said “I got in my car and went home”. He said he never mentioned it to the pilot, and never told me who the pilot was, but that I knew him. Jerry said he figured the guy had a vivid learning experience, and really didn’t need any piling on. Jerry did say he and his maintenance crew took a REALLY good look at that plane the next day, though.

    MTV
    Talk about shock cooling.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  27. #947
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    Talk about shock cooling.
    Jerry said that the very tip of the spinner appeared to just touch the water, but the engine didn't. He said that most likely the wettest thing in that airplane was the pilot's pants.

    MTV
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  28. #948
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    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  29. #949
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    Facebook reports a Cessna 170 enroute to Anchorage crashed near Whitehorse. Two fatal. https://www.yukon-news.com/news/two-...horse-airport/

    MTV

  30. #950
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    In the world of strange fuel contamination ..DEF fluid gets into Jet A.


    On May 9, two Cessna Citation 550s operated by air-ambulance operator Air Trek lost power—in both jets’ engines—due to fuel contamination by diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). The pilots were able to land safely.

    The jets were both fueled by the FBO at Punta Gorda Airport in Florida, which is operated by Charlotte Country Airport Authority. According to a spokeswoman for the airport authority, “The incident was isolated to the operations of one fuel truck, but the fuel itself on the truck had not been (and is not) contaminated. However, the icing-inhibitor injective additive appears to have been cross-contaminated with DEF.”

    According to information from AOPA, which was confirmed by the airport authority spokeswoman, one of the Air Trek Citations was flying to Niagara Falls, New York, and landed safely in Savannah, Georgia after the failure of both engines. On its way to Chicago, the other Citation “experienced an engine failure, and landed safely in Louisville, Kentucky,” AOPA said.

    DEF is required in certain diesel-engine-powered vehicles, typically those built after 2010, including airport fuel trucks. The fluid is indistinguishable from the typical icing-inhibitor fluid—usually Prist—that turbine engines without fuel preheaters require to prevent fuel icing at high altitudes. DEF is a urea-based solution that lowers nitrogen oxide pollutants in diesel exhaust and is not approved for use in jet fuel. When the two are accidentally mixed, crystals form, causing potentially catastrophic clogs throughout aircraft fuel systems.

    Last year, a Falcon 900EX operated by Fair Wind Air Charter suffered failure of two of its three engines after departure from Miami Opa-Locka Airport. Luckily the pilots were able to land back at the airport using the remaining engine.

    Fair Wind COO and equity owner Alex Beringer said that the NBAA DEF task force, of which he is a member, was notified of the Punta Gorda event. “The accidental mixing of DEF into the Prist tank is likely what occurred,” he told AIN. “DEF is a risk and remains a risk as long as these fluids remain on airport property.


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  31. #951
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Facebook reports a Cessna 170 enroute to Anchorage crashed near Whitehorse. Two fatal. https://www.yukon-news.com/news/two-...horse-airport/

    MTV
    https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Tw...510530851.html


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  32. #952
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Craig Medred article on the Whitehorse accident:

    https://craigmedred.news/2019/05/28/deadly-crash/

    MTV

  33. #953
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    After all those hours and years for both then this in an old but new to them airplane that ran that far. What?

    Gary

  34. #954
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    They had just refueled and then they crashed after taking off in the Robert Service campground which is within the airport traffic pattern? Fuel valve off???
    I looked at the map view of the airport. Where is the DC-3 on the pole windsock? Did someone place it back into service?
    N1PA

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    Dc3- is still there . She is next to the hyway tourist attraction. I was just thru Whitehorse 3 weeks ago in my new 170B. My thoughts are the same either fuel or catastrophic engine failure.
    Thoughts n prayers to the families and friends. 2 very experienced great guys.

  36. #956
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    Thanks, found it next to the Yukon Transportation Museum.

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    N1PA

  37. #957
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    Talk about a real loss.


    Two men from Palmer and Wasilla died after their plane crashed shortly after takeoff Monday evening in Whitehorse, according to Yukon officials.

    Charles Eric Benson, 56 of Palmer, and Jeffrey Brian Babcock, 58 of Wasilla, were in a recently purchased 1952 Cessna 170 and were en route from Minnesota — where they bought the plane — on a multi-day trip back to Palmer, according to Yukon chief coroner Heather Jones.
    “The wreckage was located approximately 600 meters off the end of the runway 14 in a treed area," Jones said in a prepared statement. "Both occupants were confirmed deceased at the scene.”

  38. #958
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Preliminary on the Metlakatla Beaver that flipped: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=FA

    Note the suggested wind vs landing direction and waves.

    Gary
    Thanks mike mcs repair thanked for this post

  39. #959

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    My first thought looking at picture 1, the speed looks OK, but then I note allot of right rudder with more weight on the left float. Sure wish the were more pictures.
    Sad to see the results.
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  40. #960
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska..._medium=social


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