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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2441
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    It's perhaps a matter of the plane and pilot challenged beyond their ability. I have a story from SE AK from 1967 to the 1970's that involves a very experienced Afton Coon pilot. Died in Redfish Bay south of Sitka AK in a narrow terrain passage during fowl weather. During my time onboard the plane it blew out a crank oil seal right there. Later I heard he went through the same pass and never made it. Past performance doesn't guarantee future results. Sad deal. Pay attention.

    Gary

  2. #2442

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    Cub hits kayaker on Willamette River (Portland, OR). She is expected to survive but no info yet on extent of injuries.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...ll-county.html

  3. #2443
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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    George, as I’m sure you know, this is an age old problem up here. My commercial flying in Alaska was in the 70’s and 80’s and as I flew helicopters too I was involved in many search/rescue/recovery operations. I did a fixed wing charter taking the Postmaster General to Bethel and Dillingham once and myself and some of the other operators put him in a room and explained the problem with the mail system in the bush at that time. If a good operator turned down the trip because of weather, the next operator up who was willing to take risks would get all the mail. He shrugged and said he’d look into it. Had a government charter that we turned around due to weather and the lead said “that’s ok, our department says if you don’t take us to where we contracted you to take us we don’t pay”.. We got paid, but that lead wouldn’t use us again. I’ve told my medevac stories on here before so I won’t repeat them. And here we are, 40 years later still talking about this. Doubt it will ever change until operators are regulated or insured out of business.
    Theres no doubt that external pressures can get pilots in trouble. But, Pogo was also quite accurate:

    ”We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

    Most of the times I wound up chewing up seat cushions, I needn’t look far to find the source of the pressure.

    MTV
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  4. #2444

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    In a commercial operation there is management who should exercise some type of operational control. They can’t be with the pilot on the lake in a remote area when he’s making his decision, but at the dock next to the cruise ship is different. I don’t have anything else to offer on this, and have no insight in how to stop it, or if that’s even possible. I do know that I’ve known pilots who consistently make good decisions, and those who don’t. Some from both groups are still around and some from both groups aren’t.
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  5. #2445
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    This opinion piece offers a perspective of Alaskan accidents and FAA oversight. She's written on the subject often.

    Gary
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  6. #2446
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    This opinion piece offers a perspective of Alaskan accidents and FAA oversight. She's written on the subject often.

    Gary
    This piece appears to place the responsibility on the shoulders of the FAA overseers. The responsibility belongs directly on the shoulders of the pilots doing the flying and their employers. The FAA shouldn't have to do any thing other than dropping in once in a while. The rash of these accidents in SE implies a plethora of sloppy airmanship and poor management with a total lack of good judgement. A quality FAA POI can make all the observations possible, then when he leaves the sloppy pilots and managers will just continue as before. The operators must have a safety mindset OR they should be in another line of work.
    N1PA
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  7. #2447
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Apparently Southeast Aviation had a mishap back in July as well.

    https://www.krbd.org/2021/07/09/no-o...-coffman-cove/

    This is not good.

    The insurance industry will end up putting them all out of business.
    Very Blessed. "It's not an obsession, it's a passion"

  8. #2448
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This piece appears to place the responsibility on the shoulders of the FAA overseers. The responsibility belongs directly on the shoulders of the pilots doing the flying and their employers. The FAA shouldn't have to do any thing other than dropping in once in a while. The rash of these accidents in SE implies a plethora of sloppy airmanship and poor management with a total lack of good judgement. A quality FAA POI can make all the observations possible, then when he leaves the sloppy pilots and managers will just continue as before. The operators must have a safety mindset OR they should be in another line of work.
    The newish term is 'Corporate Culture'.

    Ketchikan, the Black Hole, has a Corporate Culture pervasive in the flying community- WE GO!

    The mindset that "we have 100 days of cruise ships to make our money, so we MUST fly if at all possible, put on your big boy pants and get out there", add in the lack of old time float drivers that learned to fly low, slow and pick their way carefully, and insert the 'new' guys that can get anywhere by following the 'magenta' line, and are hot shots on the gauges so don't need to see where they are going...

    Lots to it. It is not always the management. Branch River Air is a quality company, with lots of good history and great reputation. My educated guess, after I got told to Ferry out with a beaver if it got hot and calm, that the pilot tried to cut a corner. At some point we pilots need to understand our limitations, then plan on using 80% of that to ensure we are safe. Flying 100% of your ability all the time will catch up to you, just look at the professional race cars running on the edge- they all have mishaps.


    Funny part of float operations- there are very few short cuts. You MUST get on step, you need to find the attitude with low drag, you can roll a float to help, but otherwise you need to run down the water accelerating to lift off- any attempt to get it out early just causes longer water runs.

    Options are lighter load, wait for favorable wind, or air temperatures. The rest is just keeping the drag down to allow it to get to speed...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  9. #2449
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Maybe they shouldn't try to fly around with full whales in rough terrain and weather

    Gary

  10. #2450
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    Quote Originally Posted by h2oavi8r View Post
    Cub hits kayaker on Willamette River (Portland, OR). She is expected to survive but no info yet on extent of injuries.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...ll-county.html
    I saw that, too. J3 off of a gravel bar. Made think of some of the videos on YT where people launch with a restricted view of the river.




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  11. #2451
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    I have no info on the event, but as an experienced boater and WaterSports enthusiast, kayaks are virtually invisible on the water.
    I don’t care what color you paint it, even a sharp eye will miss one occasionally, particularly if they are being quiet.
    Every kayak should have a “bike flag” at a minimum sticking 6 feet above the water.


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  12. #2452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I have no info on the event, but as an experienced boater and WaterSports enthusiast, kayaks are virtually invisible on the water.
    I don’t care what color you paint it, even a sharp eye will miss one occasionally, particularly if they are being quiet.
    Every kayak should have a “bike flag” at a minimum sticking 6 feet above the water.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    I've built a few kayaks and love to float rivers in them. One thing I'm always careful about is listening for power boats. It doesn't matter the right-of-way rules, I scoot to safety if I can't see a fast-sounding jetboat around the bend. I imagine if one heard an airplane but didn't know about these kinds of operations, he/she might not know what to do or where to go.

    What I was talking about was along the lines of lifting off right at water's edge without knowing what was coming down the river. One Youtube video I saw of fancy flying came uncomfortably close to some fly fishers.

    Situational awareness....big picture.
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  13. #2453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I have no info on the event, but as an experienced boater and WaterSports enthusiast, kayaks are virtually invisible on the water.
    I don’t care what color you paint it, even a sharp eye will miss one occasionally, particularly if they are being quiet.
    Every kayak should have a “bike flag” at a minimum sticking 6 feet above the water.
    I'll second that observation. One time while participating in the Eggemoggin Reach regatta which is a wooden sailboat race with about 90+ participants as well as more than that number of observing boats of all sizes and shapes, there was a churned up chop of about a foot. During the scrum prior to the starting gun, which is always a big cluster f--- I nearly ran over a kayak. He was in the trough between the waves paddling through the middle of the fleet. I'm certain he was unaware of the hazard he had placed himself. It was like swimming across a river full of hungry crocodiles expecting to get to the other side unharmed.
    N1PA
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  14. #2454

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    \
    Every kayak should have a “bike flag” at a minimum sticking 6 feet above the water.
    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    My wife and I paddle in high end Carbon fiber canoes, as in black canoes. There are some places we have been in NY that the powerboaters aim for you and deliberately make their wake as big as can be. Last thing I want is a flag to bring more of them to me.
    Both of my powerboats will run 70+, Odd that I have not had close encounters with paddlecraft when running slow or fast.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process
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  15. #2455
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I have no info on the event, but as an experienced boater and WaterSports enthusiast, kayaks are virtually invisible on the water.
    I don’t care what color you paint it, even a sharp eye will miss one occasionally, particularly if they are being quiet.
    Every kayak should have a “bike flag” at a minimum sticking 6 feet above the water.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    Yup, I'm adding one to my powered canoe

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  16. #2456
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    The lobster men in Maine refer to kayaks as “speed bumps”.
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  17. #2457
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Odd that I have not had close encounters with paddlecraft when running slow or fast.
    Ever found any weird scrape marks on the hull?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  18. #2458
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    If you can't see a canoe on the water without a flag, now can you clear your landing zone for floating logs? Is the Forest Service supposed to paint trees orange for you?

  19. #2459
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    If you can't see a canoe on the water without a flag, now can you clear your landing zone for floating logs? Is the Forest Service supposed to paint trees orange for you?
    ahahahahaha!

    Sadly, not the case, so I would suggest you've not experienced similar time on the water.
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  20. #2460
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    Ummmm, generally, one solos a J-3 from the back seat. Pretty lousy forward visibility from back there on takeoff. Nevertheless, it’s always a good idea to clear the takeoff area prior to takeoff. But, if a kayak slides around a corner as you’re starting the run…..

    Bad timing, I reckon.

    MTV
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  21. #2461
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Mike notes an interesting often forgotten procedure.....when's the last time an instructor pulled the power or declared an emergency during takeoff? I see it often for multi types practicing, but rarely for singles land or sea. Might be something to renew in our tool kit.

    Gary
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  22. #2462
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    Oops, darn it...

    There is YouTube video of Dale Snodgrass’s departure crash online now. (Lewiston, Idaho airport footage)

    It’s tragic and hard to watch the aftermath. I specifically am not posting it here and I suggest you don’t watch with family members.

    I still believe it was a mechanical issue - elevator lock or some pitch up moment he could not overcome prior to the stall and torque roll into the ground.

    Edit :
    Training is deep with pilots. I actually think he was yelling “eject, eject” on the com as it rolled in, reverting to his historical baseline training. I could be misinterpreting the audio as well.

    I also think it was a survivable impact with a 5 point harness. The combination of impact, fire and response time was not survivable.

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    Last edited by Farmboy; 08-08-2021 at 01:26 PM.

  23. #2463

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Mike notes an interesting often forgotten procedure.....when's the last time an instructor pulled the power or declared an emergency during takeoff? I see it often for multi types practicing, but rarely for singles land or sea. Might be something to renew in our tool kit.

    Gary
    Every check ride in the last 10 years has involved a aborted takeoff. Its part of their 135 check.
    Sandy
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  24. #2464
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    ^^^^ I've had it only twice Part 91 in 47 yrs....same instructor called "moose ahead" on wheels and "log ahead" on floats. He also pulled power when I reached for the flaps just off also on floats. Got my attention - good training. He was former Navy carrier transport pilot.

    Gary
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  25. #2465

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    This one involves a private operator and a C-180.

    https://content.govdelivery.com/acco...letins/2ebce4e
    Last edited by stewartb; 08-08-2021 at 02:24 PM.

  26. #2466
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Rare Super DC-3 departs runway in AK no injuries> https://mentourpilot.com/accident-tr...way-excursion/

    Gary
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  27. #2467
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Mike notes an interesting often forgotten procedure.....when's the last time an instructor pulled the power or declared an emergency during takeoff? I see it often for multi types practicing, but rarely for singles land or sea. Might be something to renew in our tool kit.

    Gary
    I had come to expect it in BFRs until the 90s. Not since.

  28. #2468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    There is YouTube video of Dale Snodgrass’s departure crash online now. (Lewiston, Idaho airport footage)

    It’s tragic and hard to watch the aftermath. I specifically am not posting it here and I suggest you don’t watch with family members.

    I still believe it was a mechanical issue - elevator lock or some pitch up moment he could not overcome prior to the stall and torque roll into the ground.

    Edit :
    Training is deep with pilots. I actually think he was yelling “eject, eject” on the com as it rolled in, reverting to his historical baseline training. I could be misinterpreting the audio as well.

    I also think it was a survivable impact with a 5 point harness. The combination of impact, fire and response time was not survivable.

    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    I saw it too and agree with you. It looks like jammed controls for some reason.

    When I first heard the recording, I though I heard "check, check," not expletives. Maybe you are right about that too.

  29. #2469
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    Tough video to watch

  30. #2470
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Mike notes an interesting often forgotten procedure.....when's the last time an instructor pulled the power or declared an emergency during takeoff? I see it often for multi types practicing, but rarely for singles land or sea. Might be something to renew in our tool kit.

    Gary
    Every flight review I administer includes a power failure on departure - single-engine land or sea.

    Daryl
    Daryl Hickman, ATP, CFI, XYZ, PDQ
    N452SP American Legend Cub
    http://www.CubFlying.com
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  31. #2471
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Without an "abort tool" previously experienced and/or practiced it probably takes too long to acknowledge and correct when it occurs. There's that deer in the headlights moment we've all experienced. I ride motorcycles to maintain awareness and deal with the potential killers that ride in cages. Not that easy to maintain proficiency in aircraft if it's never demonstrated.

    Gary

  32. #2472
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Rare Super DC-3 departs runway in AK no injuries> https://mentourpilot.com/accident-tr...way-excursion/

    Gary
    That’s in Mark Moyle’s neighborhood.
    Speedo

  33. #2473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I have no info on the event, but as an experienced boater and WaterSports enthusiast, kayaks are virtually invisible on the water.
    I don’t care what color you paint it, even a sharp eye will miss one occasionally, particularly if they are being quiet.
    Every kayak should have a “bike flag” at a minimum sticking 6 feet above the water.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    When I was based on Auke Lake in Juneau, I had to dodge kayaks all the time. As I warmed up my engine they would all be packed together, when I would make my final turn to line up for take off they would spread out blocking much of my take off area- same went for landing, the idiots would always paddle right into my path or spread out to make sure one was in danger.

    Jet ski guys- they would see me circle and then cluster together and stop until I landed... go figure.

    Hi Eric, hope all is well.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  34. #2474

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    A Mooney was involved in a multiple fatality accident a few days ago in Minnesota, I think. Here’s a pic of the plane in the moment before it impacted the ground. Structural failure is scary. I wonder what’ll become of this.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0B05E724-E950-406A-9B97-B811523FE946.jpeg 
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  35. #2475
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    Extensive discussion on Beechtalk about this. Left horizontal stab and elevator found a block away. Unstabilized instrument approach. One speculation is over stress when breaking out in an unusual attitude at high speed.

    Others speculate failed wing spar, but most likely that was the second failure after the tail.

    Bad deal, whatever happened. There have been reports of wing spar corrosion in a few mooneys, found during inspection. These were planes poorly maintained sitting outside for long periods. The thread over there has no examples of in flight spar failures due to corrosion and there are pages and pages of comments from a lot of knowledgeable people.

    Rich

  36. #2476

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richgj3 View Post
    There have been reports of wing spar corrosion in a few mooneys, found during inspection. These were planes poorly maintained sitting outside for long periods. The thread over there has no examples of in flight spar failures due to corrosion and there are pages and pages of comments from a lot of knowledgeable people.

    Rich
    This was a nearly new "M" model with a low hr 72YO doctor at the helm in IMC who liked to fly up high. He was 10 miles out so he obviously was not real high up when he lost control. To me there is little chance to blame the plane for this one.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process
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  37. #2477
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Not a bad idea to have a G-meter in a slippery plane subject to quick speed and descent. Assumes there's someone onboard capable of reading and interpreting it along with those terminator lines on the airspeed.

    Gary

  38. #2478

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    If someone was having difficulty with basic aircraft control while in the clouds, giving them something else to look at and try to interpret isn’t likely to help. Sometimes more isn’t better, it’s just more.
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  39. #2479
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    ^^^^ Yes - it all assumes the ability to multi-task which diminishes with age. Unfortunately the older we get the better we are (or even were) may not apply.

    Gary

  40. #2480

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    That Mooney will fly itself in the clouds, it will climb, descend turn whatever it is asked to do. All the pilot has to do is touch a button once in awhile. To spiral out of a cloud with any of the cruising planes is a total failure of the command to guide the craft. No value in a G meter, you should never generate a recordable number when flying. With most any handheld device as well as what he had in the panel most all the weather to be avoided is displayed.
    It will be interesting to learn how this guy found a way to fold up his nearly new airplane. All I can figure is, at 10 miles out he was trying to hand fly the approach which should have been doable on autopilot still. Possibly there was a procedure turn he was hand flying and botched that up.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

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