This one involves a private operator and a C-180.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USDHSCG/bulletins/2ebce4e
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USDHSCG/bulletins/2ebce4e
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Oops, darn it...
- Thread starter Anne
- Start date
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Rare Super DC-3 departs runway in AK no injuries> https://mentourpilot.com/accident-transnorthern-super-dc-3-runway-excursion/
Gary
Gary
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I had come to expect it in BFRs until the 90s. Not since.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I saw it too and agree with you. It looks like jammed controls for some reason.
When I first heard the recording, I though I heard "check, check," not expletives. Maybe you are right about that too.
CubCruiser
SPONSOR
Ormond Beach, Florida
Every flight review I administer includes a power failure on departure - single-engine land or sea.
Daryl
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Without an "abort tool" previously experienced and/or practiced it probably takes too long to acknowledge and correct when it occurs. There's that deer in the headlights moment we've all experienced. I ride motorcycles to maintain awareness and deal with the potential killers that ride in cages. Not that easy to maintain proficiency in aircraft if it's never demonstrated.
Gary
Gary
Speedo
FOUNDER
TN
That’s in Mark Moyle’s neighborhood.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
When I was based on Auke Lake in Juneau, I had to dodge kayaks all the time. As I warmed up my engine they would all be packed together, when I would make my final turn to line up for take off they would spread out blocking much of my take off area- same went for landing, the idiots would always paddle right into my path or spread out to make sure one was in danger.
Jet ski guys- they would see me circle and then cluster together and stop until I landed... go figure.
Hi Eric, hope all is well.
Richgj3
BENEFACTOR
LI,NY
Extensive discussion on Beechtalk about this. Left horizontal stab and elevator found a block away. Unstabilized instrument approach. One speculation is over stress when breaking out in an unusual attitude at high speed.
Others speculate failed wing spar, but most likely that was the second failure after the tail.
Bad deal, whatever happened. There have been reports of wing spar corrosion in a few mooneys, found during inspection. These were planes poorly maintained sitting outside for long periods. The thread over there has no examples of in flight spar failures due to corrosion and there are pages and pages of comments from a lot of knowledgeable people.
Rich
Others speculate failed wing spar, but most likely that was the second failure after the tail.
Bad deal, whatever happened. There have been reports of wing spar corrosion in a few mooneys, found during inspection. These were planes poorly maintained sitting outside for long periods. The thread over there has no examples of in flight spar failures due to corrosion and there are pages and pages of comments from a lot of knowledgeable people.
Rich
This was a nearly new "M" model with a low hr 72YO doctor at the helm in IMC who liked to fly up high. He was 10 miles out so he obviously was not real high up when he lost control. To me there is little chance to blame the plane for this one.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Not a bad idea to have a G-meter in a slippery plane subject to quick speed and descent. Assumes there's someone onboard capable of reading and interpreting it along with those terminator lines on the airspeed.
Gary
Gary
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
^^^^ Yes - it all assumes the ability to multi-task which diminishes with age. Unfortunately the older we get the better we are (or even were) may not apply.
Gary
Gary
That Mooney will fly itself in the clouds, it will climb, descend turn whatever it is asked to do. All the pilot has to do is touch a button once in awhile. To spiral out of a cloud with any of the cruising planes is a total failure of the command to guide the craft. No value in a G meter, you should never generate a recordable number when flying. With most any handheld device as well as what he had in the panel most all the weather to be avoided is displayed.
It will be interesting to learn how this guy found a way to fold up his nearly new airplane. All I can figure is, at 10 miles out he was trying to hand fly the approach which should have been doable on autopilot still. Possibly there was a procedure turn he was hand flying and botched that up.
It will be interesting to learn how this guy found a way to fold up his nearly new airplane. All I can figure is, at 10 miles out he was trying to hand fly the approach which should have been doable on autopilot still. Possibly there was a procedure turn he was hand flying and botched that up.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
You make hand flying in clouds sound like a crime. If you can’t hand fly an airplane through ANY instrument procedure, you probably shouldn’t be flying in cloud.
MTV
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
What do you mean by "a recordable number". The G meter always reads some value and, if it is linked to a recording system, all values are recorded. I agree that a knowledge of normal acceleration (G) is not useful for aircraft control in IMC.
If this was a recent model Mooney it will likely have been fitted with a "glass panel" which will have recorded multiple parameters to probably 1 second resolution. It shouldn't be difficult for the investigation team to determine the sequence of events.
The images I saw of this plane looked like a single display in the center stack, otherwise round gauges.
I agree about hand flying in clouds but that is where many of the issues can rear their head and this guy was claimed to not be a high hour pilot. But in my opinion hours flown does not guarantee competency if the person has very few hands on hours especially in the soup.
This plane was visually reported to have come out of the cloud in a steep banked turn, initiated a steep pull out which broke the main spar. To the best of my knowledge only one other Mooney spar has been broken in recent years. These planes are not known to break up.
I agree about hand flying in clouds but that is where many of the issues can rear their head and this guy was claimed to not be a high hour pilot. But in my opinion hours flown does not guarantee competency if the person has very few hands on hours especially in the soup.
This plane was visually reported to have come out of the cloud in a steep banked turn, initiated a steep pull out which broke the main spar. To the best of my knowledge only one other Mooney spar has been broken in recent years. These planes are not known to break up.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
The ADS-B data for the final few minutes of this flight is very disturbing. Shortly after intercepting what appears to be an approach for runway 10L or 10R at KFCM the data shows a descent rate of about 3,000 fpm, followed by a climb at about 2,000 fpm, then another 3,000 fpm descent, then a 3,000 fpm climb. The log ends with over 11,000 fpm descent rate indicated.
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I don’t like to talk about this stuff until everything is known, but it appears there is not a lot of mystery here. Any GA airplane can be pushed beyond design limits with predictable results. You have to be able to competently hand fly an aircraft in IMC if you intend to operate in the clouds. Automation has become an issue across the aviation spectrum as too many rely on it in lieu of pilot competence. I saw this frequently when performing pre-employment simulator evaluations on professional pilots. And as a side note, our jets had g-meters that only displayed on the ground to measure acceleration and deceleration during operations on contaminated runways. Your butt will easily tell you all you need to know once airborne.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
As an instrument rated pilot I try to learn all I can from the mistakes made by others.
The first sign of loss of control happens almost exactly 10 nm out with a left turn and a 3,000 fpm descent. The IAF for RNAV 10L has a left procedure turn which is not required for the heading that was being flown. I speculate that the AP was engaged and tried to fly the procedure turn.
Anyone who flies with an autopilot must expect it to misbehave and must be able to take over control after disconnect. It's one thing to be legally instrument current, quite another to be instrument proficient.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Two entirely separate qualifiers.
He did have a second pilot next to him.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
Reported to be a student pilot. Not likely to be of much help if the accident sequence started with loss of control in IMC.
I do not consider that to be true at all. If his equilibrium was still stable he could well have at a minimum brought forward the question about position and stability. Would not be the first time a right seater saved a day. They have been known to be called a safety pilot in the past.
As chips were flying from the material on my lathe a thought came to mind. When running on autopilot, medium to hard bumps can trip off the auto pilot. Happened to us both on the way out to Osh and the return back east this year.
Depending on the trim the AP being kicked out can go unnoticed and could well be unnoticed until a substantial deviation occurs. Being 10 miles out he would have been on the "downhill run", the speed is right up there. When the AP kicks out this might have been unnoticed till the point of an aggressive input during the attempt at correction results in what the outcome we see was.
Depending on the trim the AP being kicked out can go unnoticed and could well be unnoticed until a substantial deviation occurs. Being 10 miles out he would have been on the "downhill run", the speed is right up there. When the AP kicks out this might have been unnoticed till the point of an aggressive input during the attempt at correction results in what the outcome we see was.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Your subconscious mind was working on those thoughts Charlie. Use it.
Gary
Gary
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
