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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #561

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    This report has taken a long time.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSto...illed-34634461

  2. #562
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    """The probable cause of the crash was the operator's failure to account for about 420 additional pounds of unspecified cargo, which led to loading and operating the de Havilland DHC3 Otter outside its weight and center-of-gravity limits, the report said..."""

    Hmm. it would have had to have been in a real weird place for 420 pounds to make much of a difference for a turbine Otter.

  3. #563
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    """The probable cause of the crash was the operator's failure to account for about 420 additional pounds of unspecified cargo, which led to loading and operating the de Havilland DHC3 Otter outside its weight and center-of-gravity limits, the report said..."""

    Hmm. it would have had to have been in a real weird place for 420 pounds to make much of a difference for a turbine Otter.
    Aft, Alex......that'd do it. Sad.

    MTV

  4. #564
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I always wondered if it was a case of cargo shift. But I saw what was left after the fire. Everything was in a big black pile.

  5. #565
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Alex,

    Remember the Beech 1900 accident, coming from Kodiak with a load of deer hunters and dead deer? Only survivor was the labrador in his kennel, in the aft baggage with all that deer meat...... Airplanes don't like aft loading.....and guess where all the cargo goes when you've got passengers in an Otter?

    MTV

  6. #566
    T.J.'s Avatar
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    How does the NTSB know how much overweight it was? They don't know what the fuel load was.

  7. #567
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    *** Note: NTSB investigators traveled in support of this investigation and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report. ***
    Before picking up the nine passengers, the pilot loaded the accident airplane at the operator's base in Nikiski with cargo (food and supplies for the lodge). The operator of the lodge where the passengers were headed estimated the cargo weighed about 300 pounds (lbs) and that the passengers' baggage weighed about 80 lbs. Estimates of the passengers' weights were provided to the lodge operator in preparation for the trip, which totaled 1,350 lbs. The load manifest listed each of these weight estimates for a total weight of 1,730 lbs and did not contain any balance data. The cargo was not weighed, and the pilot did not document any weight and balance calculations nor was he required to do so.
    The airplane operator did not keep fueling records for each flight. A witness who was present during the fueling operations at the operator's base reported that he saw the pilot top off the front tank then begin fueling the center tank. The first leg of the trip from the operator's base to pick up the passengers was completed uneventfully.
    According to witnesses at Soldotna Airport, after loading the passengers and their baggage, the pilot taxied for departure. There were no witnesses to the accident. The airplane impacted the ground about 2,320 feet from the threshold of the departure runway and about 154 feet right of the runway centerline.
    Airport Name: Runway Identification: Runway Length/Width (Ft): Runway Surface: Runway Surface Condition:
    Soldotna Airport 25 5000 / 132 Asphalt Dry
    42
    Commercial; Multi-engine Land; Single-engine Land
    Airplane
    7765 Unk/Nr 155 UnK/Nr
    Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
    Name of Carrier Type of Flight Operation: Reg. Flight Conducted Under:
    Brief of
    An extensive postcrash fire consumed most of the airplane's cockpit and cabin area, including an unknown quantity of the baggage and cargo. Impact signatures were consistent with a nose- and right-wing-low attitude at impact.
    The entire airplane was accounted for at the wreckage site. Disassembly and examination of the engine and propeller revealed that both were operating during impact. Examination of the structure and flight control systems found no preimpact malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation. The pilot was properly certificated and qualified in accordance with applicable federal regulations. Toxicological testing of specimens from the pilot was negative for any carbon monoxide, alcohol, or drugs.
    The airplane was not equipped, and was not required to be equipped, with any type of crash-resistant recorder. A video recovered from a passenger's smartphone showed the accident sequence looking out of the row 4 left seat window; the left wing and flaps are in view for most of the sequence and the flap position does not change. The investigation found that the flaps were set to the full-down (or landing) position during takeoff, contrary to recommended procedures in the airplane flight manual (AFM).

    The recovered video was used to estimate the airplane speed, altitude, and orientation for the portion of the flight where ground references were visible, about 22.5 seconds after the start of the takeoff roll. For the first 12 seconds, the airplane accelerated linearly from the beginning of the takeoff roll through liftoff. The pitch angle decreased slightly in the first 8 seconds as the tail lifted, remained essentially constant for about 4 seconds, and began to slightly increase as the airplane lifted off. Beginning about 14 seconds after the start of the takeoff roll, the speed began decreasing and the pitch angle began increasing. The pitch angle increased at a constant rate (about 2.8 degrees/second), reaching a maximum value of about 30 degrees, and the ground speed decreased from its maximum of about 68 mph to about 44 mph at the end of the analyzed time. The ground references disappeared from the video frame as the airplane experienced a sharp right roll before impacting the ground several seconds later.
    The low speed, rapid right roll, and pitch down of the airplane is consistent with an aerodynamic stall. The constant pitch rate before the stall is consistent with an aft center of gravity (CG) condition of sufficient magnitude that the elevator pitch down authority was insufficient to overcome the pitching moment generated by the aft CG. Additionally, the flaps setting at the full-down (or landing) position, contrary to procedures contained in the AFM, would have exacerbated the nose-up pitching moment due to the increased downwash on the tail and aft shift of the center of pressure; the additional aerodynamic drag from the fully extended flaps would have altered the airplane's acceleration.

    Using the data available, the airplane was within weight and balance limitations for the first leg of the trip. However, the cargo loaded was about 2.4 times the weight indicated on the load manifest. Further, the total weight of cargo and baggage in the cargo area, as estimated during the investigation, exceeded the installed cargo net's load limit of 750 lbs by more than 50 lbs. Although the loaded cargo actual weight was higher than indicated on the load manifest, the flight from Nikiski to Soldotna was completed without any concerns noted by the pilot, indicating that even with the higher cargo load, the airplane was within the normal CG range for that leg of the flight.

    Thus, based on the investigation's best estimate and a calculation of the airplane's weight and balance using the recovered passenger weights, weights and location of the luggage recovered on scene, weight of the cargo recovered on scene, and weights accounting for the liquid cargo destroyed in the postimpact fire, once the passengers were loaded, the airplane weight would have exceeded the maximum gross weight of 8,000 lbs by about 21 lbs and the CG would have been at least 5.5 inches aft of the 152.2-inch limit (a more definitive calculation could not be performed because the exact location of the cargo was not known).

    Additionally, the kinematics study of the accident airplane's weight and motion during initial climb and up to the point of stall found that with the pilot applying full pitch-down control input, the CG required to produce the motion observed in the video was likely just past 161 inches. Thus, the only way for the airplane motion to match the motion observed in the video was for the CG to be considerably aft of the 152.2-inch limit, which provides additional support to the results from the weight and balance study. Based on the video study, the weight and balance study constructed from available weight and balance information, and the kinematics study, the airplane exceeded the aft CG limit at takeoff, which resulted in an uncontrollable nose-up pitch leading to an aerodynamic stall. The CG was so far aft of the limit that the airplane likely would have stalled even with the flaps in the correct position.

    Accident (Continued)
    DCA13MA121 File No. 0 07/07/2013 Soldotna ,AK Aircraft Reg No. N93PC Time (Local): 11:20 AKD
    Brief of
    Neither 14 CFR Part 135 nor the operator's operations specifications (OpSpec) require that the aircraft weight and balance be physically documented for any flights. However, according to Section A096 of the OpSpec, when determining aircraft weight and balance, the operator should use either the actual measured weights for all passengers, baggage, and cargo or the solicited weights for passengers plus 10 lbs and actual measured weights for baggage and cargo. The operator did not comply with federal regulations that require adherence to the weighing requirements or the takeoff weight limitations in the AFM. Additionally, although the inaccurate estimate of 300 lbs for the cargo resulted in a calculated CG that was within limits for both legs of the flight, the actual weight of the cargo was significantly higher. Once loaded in Soldotna, the combination of the passengers, their baggage, and the actual cargo weight and its location resulted in the CG for the accident flight being significantly aft of the limit. With the CG so far aft, even with full nose-down input from the pilot, the nose continued to pitch up until the airplane stalled.
    For each flight in multiengine operations, 14 CFR 135.63(c) requires the preparation of a load manifest that includes, among other items the number of passengers, total weight of the loaded aircraft, the maximum allowable takeoff weight, and the CG location of the loaded aircraft; one copy of the load manifest should be carried in the airplane and the operator is required to keep the records for at least 30 days. Single-engine operations are excluded from this requirement. The NTSB attempted to address this exclusion with the issuance of Safety Recommendations A-89-135 and A-99-61, which asked the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to amend the record-keeping requirements of 14 [CFR] 135.63(c) to apply to single-engine as well as multiengine aircraft. The FAA did not take the recommended action in either instance, and the NTSB classified Safety Recommendations A-89-135 and A-99-61 "Closed—Unacceptable Action" in 1990 and 2014, respectively.
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 10-22-2015 at 04:42 PM.

  8. #568
    T.J.'s Avatar
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    Thanks for that Alex.

  9. #569
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 16-OCT-15
    Time: 23:30:00Z
    Regis#: N4336Z
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: Accident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Substantial
    LOCATION
    City: SULUA BAY
    State: Alaska
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON TAXI TO PARK, GROUND LOOPED, SULUA BAY, ALASKA

  10. #570
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 16-OCT-15
    Time: 23:30:00Z
    Regis#: N4336Z
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: Accident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Substantial
    LOCATION
    City: SULUA BAY
    State: Alaska
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON TAXI TO PARK, GROUND LOOPED, SULUA BAY, ALASKA

  11. #571

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    Ruh roh.

  12. #572
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    DENTIFICATION
    Date: 15-OCT-15
    Time: 17:45:00Z
    Regis#: N83454
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: Incident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Minor
    LOCATION
    City: GREYBULL
    State: Wyoming
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING STRUCK THE PROP, NEAR GREYBULL, WY

  13. #573
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 10-OCT-15
    Time: 03:40:00Z
    Regis#: N3341M
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA12
    Event Type: Incident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Minor
    LOCATION
    City: ILIAMNA
    State: Alaska
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT DURING FLIGHT, PART OF THE PROPELLER SEPARATED AND FORCE LANDED, 16 MILES FROM ILIAMNA, ALASKA

  14. #574
    aktango58's Avatar
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    That sounds scary. If anyone is around that can tell us what type of prop, engine size, and if it had previous damage?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  15. #575
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    WASILLA — Two men had to be rescued on Saturday after the small plane they were in flipped at a landing strip neat Skwentna.

    Alaska State Troopers said Davis Dunlap, 23, of Palmer, texted a family member via spot locator that he and another male passenger were unhurt when the 1946 Aeornca Champion Dunlap was piloting overturned and came to rest on its wings. Dunlap said he had no survival gear for an overnight stay and were in a foot of snow. He requested a rescue.

    The Rescue Coordination Center on Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson was notified and flew to the area to pick up both men. They were flown to Mat-Su Regional Medical Center, where both denied any injuries.

    The wreck was the second Dunlap has been involved in since July 2014. According to a Frontiersman account from the time, he was treated for minor injuries when a 1956 Aeornoca Champ piloted by Russell Dunlap, 57, crash-landed at Sky Ranch near Palmer.

    The cause of the most recent mishap is under investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board.

    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 08-NOV-15
    Time: 01:29:00Z
    Regis#: N3132E
    Aircraft Make: AERONCA
    Aircraft Model: 7BCM
    Event Type: Incident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Unknown
    LOCATION
    City: SKWENTNA
    State: Alaska
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT FLIPPED OVER INTO A SNOWBANK AND WAS RESCUED BY THE AIR NATIONAL GUARD HELICOPTER, 8 MILES FROM SKWENTNA, ALASKA

  16. #576
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 03-NOV-15
    Time: 18:00:00Z
    Regis#: N9029Y
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: Accident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Destroyed
    LOCATION
    City: TECUMSEH
    State: Michigan
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES SHORT OF THE AIRPORT, TECUMSEH, MI

  17. #577
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    WASILLA — Two men had to be rescued on Saturday after the small plane they were in flipped at a landing strip neat Skwentna.

    Alaska State Troopers said Davis Dunlap, 23, of Palmer, texted a family member via spot locator that he and another male passenger were unhurt when the 1946 Aeornca Champion Dunlap was piloting overturned and came to rest on its wings. Dunlap said he had no survival gear for an overnight stay and were in a foot of snow. He requested a rescue.

    The Rescue Coordination Center on Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson was notified and flew to the area to pick up both men. They were flown to Mat-Su Regional Medical Center, where both denied any injuries.

    The wreck was the second Dunlap has been involved in since July 2014. According to a Frontiersman account from the time, he was treated for minor injuries when a 1956 Aeornoca Champ piloted by Russell Dunlap, 57, crash-landed at Sky Ranch near Palmer.

    The cause of the most recent mishap is under investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board.

    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 08-NOV-15
    Time: 01:29:00Z
    Regis#: N3132E
    Aircraft Make: AERONCA
    Aircraft Model: 7BCM
    Event Type: Incident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Unknown
    LOCATION
    City: SKWENTNA
    State: Alaska
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT FLIPPED OVER INTO A SNOWBANK AND WAS RESCUED BY THE AIR NATIONAL GUARD HELICOPTER, 8 MILES FROM SKWENTNA, ALASKA
    So, now we're substituting a SPOT locator for survival gear?????

    MTV

  18. #578
    C-185's Avatar
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    You know Mike, technology will save us...........................
    My superior skills continue to get me out of where my piss poor judgement took me......

  19. #579
    cubflier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    So, now we're substituting a SPOT locator for survival gear?????

    MTV
    It's been happening since the first SPOT came out and it happens way too often. These people that push the button just for a ride back to a warm fire are going to screw up a good thing we have here in Alaska. That is rescue without a giant bill. I know none of us are perfect but we all need to remind ourselves what happened to Helo 1 and make sure it's life or death (not discomfort) when we push the button.

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!

  20. #580
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    heard Talkeetna air taxi lost a beaver thru ice today???

    any info???

  21. #581
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    =========
    PA-12 fan

  22. #582
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    What Scooter said...

    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 17-NOV-15
    Time: 02:05:00Z
    Regis#: N93DG
    Aircraft Make: DE HAVILLAND
    Aircraft Model: DHC2
    Event Type: Incident
    Highest Injury: None
    Aircraft Missing:
    Damage: Unknown
    LOCATION
    City: TALKNEETNA
    State: Alaska
    Country:
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT LANDED ON A FROZEN LAKE, DURING TAXI BROKE THROUGH THE ICE AND BECAME PARTIALLY SUBMERGED, SOCKEYE LAKE, 12 MILES FROM TALKEETNA, ALASKA

  23. #583
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    i recognize the name, member? or??

    http://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Pil...393745921.html

  24. #584
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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  25. #585
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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  26. #586
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    What time of day does it get dark there now? Full moon or none? Not withstanding any possible weather, it sounds as though he was lost or certainly unsure of his location. The time line doesn't add up. If he left Wasilla at 9:11, why would he be texting that he couldn't land at Nome at 9:11?

    The pilot left Wasilla on Sunday, at approximately 9:11 p.m, according to NTSB. And the pilot's last communication occurred around 10:30 p.m., according to AST. "He texted his fiancee at 9:11 p.m. that he could not land due to weather," Grainger's last communication came at 10:30 p.m., according to troopers. Residents in Nome told authorities they heard and saw the plane flying over the community on Sunday night.
    N1PA
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  27. #587
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Pete,

    Ending civil twilight: 5:28 PM.

    MTV

  28. #588
    skukum12's Avatar
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    Someone didnt get the times right, no 172 is making that flight in 1:11.

  29. #589
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I can easily see an inexperienced night flyer becoming very confused over that route of flight. Not much in the way of ground lights.
    N1PA

  30. #590
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    I don't believe he was lost. He made more then one attempt to land at City field in the fog. Everyone in town heard him circling around trying to get in before he headed east down the coast where he finally lost it for some reason. Lots of unanswered questions at this point. City Field is not maintained in the winter and is what we use for our ski strip. He was on wheels, it was fogy dark and the field is not lighted. The main field is lighted and large. He made no attempt to land there. He made no radio contact with flight service. Several local pilots tried contacting him on hand held radios when they heard him buzzing town trying to get in. He made no contact with them either. He has been to Nome before. Several pilots remember seeing that 172 at City Field in the summer. That's the facts as I know them here in Nome. Prayers for his family and friends.
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  31. #591
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    That was a C-172 XP,,,,, The weather certainly was becoming worse as the night went along...

    0611:53N 50.25Freezing FogVV002-6-986%-18NA30.521033.6
    0610:53N 510.00OvercastOVC002-10-1386%-22NA30.521033.6
    0609:53N 30.50Freezing FogVV002-9-1287%NANA30.511033.4
    0608:53NE 30.15Freezing FogVV002-5-81-1087%NANA30.501032.9
    0607:53Calm0.25Freezing FogVV002-6-891%NANA30.511033.0
    0606:53Calm0.25Light Snow Freezing FogVV002-9-1191%NANA30.501032.9
    0605:53N 50.25Light Snow Freezing FogVV002-5-791%-16NA30.491032.5
    0604:53N 64.00Light Snow Fog/MistOVC003-2-491%-14NA30.491032.6
    0603:53N 59.00OvercastOVC0031-287%-9NA30.491032.6
    0602:53N 510.00OvercastOVC0041-21-887%-9NA30.491032.5
    0601:53N 610.00OvercastOVC005-1-3

  32. #592

  33. #593
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    The pilot was motivated to go to an airport in Nome at night under a ~ half moon. More will be revealed in time. When you get to the end of the rope there's not much left.

    GAP
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  34. #594

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    Remember a couple of years ago a C-180 crashed in New Hampshire and the whole thing was caught on video? Kinda went viral for a while? Looked exactly like a seat rail failure but the NTSB quickly said the seat and rails were intact? Here's the final report. Pilot and passenger were both medicated. Apparently impaired enough not to recognize a crazy climb angle and subsequent stall. Wow.

    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=FA
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  35. #595

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    I landed right behind them and was subsequently contacted by the FAA and provided a statement. The thing that stood out was that he was a local pilot for decades, yet when he first called in on the CTAF he stated he was entering left downwind for Runway 22. I called entering downwind behind him for runway 20, which was correct. His next calls simply stated landing south... he probably had landed there hundreds of times through the years.
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  36. #596

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    Don't ever underestimate the effects of diphenhydramine when flying and it's half life lasts days!

    It's not FAA over reaction. I know first-hand from a very bad experience a few years ago that it does not mix with Flying. I had never noticed anything while driving but even at a fractional dose (let alone a clinical levels like is mentioned in the report) there can be a dramatic impairment acceleration caused by the rapid altitude change at take off and climb out. As for me, it won't ever happen again because I haven't ever taken it again and won't as long as I'm flying and that includes all the various 'PM' sleep aids on the market which include it.

    Please be safe, this is a very real but easily avoidable risk that I hope the new FAA med training includes.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 03-29-2017 at 09:48 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  37. #597
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    The official guidelines from the FAA regarding time from taking diphenhydramine (benadryl) to flight: 60 hours.

    rsc
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  38. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindOnHisNose View Post
    The official guidelines from the FAA regarding time from taking diphenhydramine (benadryl) to flight: 60 hours.

    rsc
    Dang! It works really well when your listening to Lou on the radio.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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  39. #599
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
    Dang! It works really well when your listening to Lou on the radio.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    You don't turn him off like the rest of us

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
    Likes bowenjo liked this post

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