My employee was just in on another glacier rescue in Valdez yesterday. I don’t know the whole story but evidently a guy’s snow machine broke down way up the Valdez Glacier and he was trying to walk out. He did have some gear but eventually made a snow cave to rest while soaked. He had been on the glacier for 40 hours! Treated for hypothermia. Use your head, be prepared but when you screw up and the chips are down there are really competent people who will do all they can to help you. Must be a human thing. Cool stuff!
Oops, darn it...
- Thread starter Anne
- Start date
Pretty amazing that nobody was injured in this one. One plane was severely damaged yet managed to land, and the other deployed a parachute and drifted safely to the ground.
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...e-denver-suburb-and-land-with-no-one-injured/
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...e-denver-suburb-and-land-with-no-one-injured/
flynlow
FRIEND
Fowler, Ks
I was in Centennial tower years ago and watched a near miss. 17R and 17L are offset 17left is longer and right traffic sees it and conflicts with 17L final traffic
The one I saw missed by feet with the controller repeatedly asking if the twin that overshot had visual on runway..he was cleared to 17R but was looking at 17L
Obviously same scenario
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The one I saw missed by feet with the controller repeatedly asking if the twin that overshot had visual on runway..he was cleared to 17R but was looking at 17L
Obviously same scenario
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tedwaltman1
FOUNDER
Delta, CO
News last night said each parallel runway has a separate frequency. I thought that was a bit odd. A person couldn't hear advisories for possibly conflicting traffic unless one was monitoring the other frequency.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Farmboy
MEMBER
Middlebury, VT
I actually think the cirrus pilot was calling the traffic in sight as the other traffic previously mentioned by the controller, not the Metro.
If you look at the track logs one of the contributors in my opinion was the excessive speed the cirrus driver was carrying. 165-170 kts on baseleg makes it hard to turn corners to final. He overshoots his runway _and_ the parallel runway. Even if he was aiming to rollout on Left he would not have made it.
Audio recording with ATC is also worth a listen.
- Metro pilot cleared to land. Then declares emergency and stated thinks he lost the right engine. My opinion is he suddenly yawed right and there was an explosive sound, and his gut reaction was his right engine blew up. I don’t think he knew the true cause until perhaps other radio calls. And as he simply taxied to parking I don’t think he knew the damage extent until shutting down and getting out.
- They must teach well out there, as apparently next in line was a kid on his first solo, and he called out the midair, accident site location as if he had seen it before.
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
If you look at the track logs one of the contributors in my opinion was the excessive speed the cirrus driver was carrying. 165-170 kts on baseleg makes it hard to turn corners to final. He overshoots his runway _and_ the parallel runway. Even if he was aiming to rollout on Left he would not have made it.
Audio recording with ATC is also worth a listen.
- Metro pilot cleared to land. Then declares emergency and stated thinks he lost the right engine. My opinion is he suddenly yawed right and there was an explosive sound, and his gut reaction was his right engine blew up. I don’t think he knew the true cause until perhaps other radio calls. And as he simply taxied to parking I don’t think he knew the damage extent until shutting down and getting out.
- They must teach well out there, as apparently next in line was a kid on his first solo, and he called out the midair, accident site location as if he had seen it before.
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courierguy
MEMBER
Inkom, Idaho
I would have loved to have seen the Metro pilot's face when he got a look at what was left his airplane, priceless! The good news is, both engines are fine. If a Metro is a "small" airplane, I guess I fly a itsy bitsy one.
Why did I immediately think the Cirrus pilot was most likely at fault?
Why did I immediately think the Cirrus pilot was most likely at fault?
you tube channel “Dan Gryder -Probable Cause”
does a brief breakdown on the incident.
his perspective is the most logical I’ve seen so far.
Operating VFR and ILS traffic simultaneously on parallel runways is a recipe for this kind of incident.
unbelievable everyone walked away.
does a brief breakdown on the incident.
his perspective is the most logical I’ve seen so far.
Operating VFR and ILS traffic simultaneously on parallel runways is a recipe for this kind of incident.
unbelievable everyone walked away.
Exactly. We used to fly into KBFI a lot, and flying a jet (or anything, but a jet in landing configuration at VREF is slower to respond) on a stabilized approach to 14R while watching a student pilot on left base to 14L is unnerving at best. Anyone can slightly overshoot final, and in the case of these runways and the ones at KAPA, the time to respond and avoid a collision is almost non existent. Just the distraction of needing to watch this traffic is a risk factor, plus they always generated a red target on TCAS.
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Don't think that the Cirrus pilot ever saw the Metroliner. The traffic in sight was the Cessna ahead of him lining up for 17R.
Mark_Moyle
SPONSOR
Platinum
Saw on fox last night...they’re blaming it on ATC. That the aircraft were on different frequencies.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Farmboy
MEMBER
Middlebury, VT
I call BS on that theory. No interaction from either controller communication or pilot communication was cause for the incident. ATC tapes are clear.
Ironically the controller that turned the F16 and 150 into each other a few years ago should have been blamed, and hardly got a mention.
Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
irishfield
Registered User
Penetanguishene, Ontario Canada
Head down in a glass cockpit.. how do you not see a metro?? Also why we frown on straight in finals when VFR in Canada. Join the circuit and take a number like everyone else..
G280Driver
FRIEND
Where I work we fly into Centennial a lot. We no longer are supposed to call the field in site and get switched over to visual approach. There is a lot of piston and student traffic there. Approach control and tower do a miserable job in separating traffic. Its expected to have west side traffic overshoot their centerline. We have had a least a dozen hazard reports written for this very item at APA.
APA and MGE are two places to be alert. Controllers have a tough job. I get that but Id rather be n the middle of push at LAX or DC metro area than Denver or Atlanta.
APA and MGE are two places to be alert. Controllers have a tough job. I get that but Id rather be n the middle of push at LAX or DC metro area than Denver or Atlanta.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I was wondering about that. So fly an instrument approach all the way in? If that is the case, how do they allow VFR traffic so close?
G280Driver
FRIEND
Thats why were told to stay on the approach, for separation. It hoses everyone in the pattern. But if I wanna keep a pay check coming thats what were told to do. To be honest its hard to stay on the approach when you have the field 20 miles out. I haven’t listened to the tapes but have been a part of this exact set up. My situation coming to Denver from Texas. VFR day, get pulled off arrival early with North heading that puts us on left down wind. Call the field in site. At about midfield get visual to 17L join final over North side of the reservoir. Do as told. Its an RNAV to 17L. Leave it set up and fly it. Get on final listening to other traffic and a cessna overshoots 17R. TCAS starts having a fit because the traffic is between me and my runway. They finally start correcting but with west winds 1000 foot agl the cessna is slow in getting out of the way. Our final speed 135ish kts depending on load but a good closure rate. TCAS finally shuts up after side stepping some. When I opened door to let PAX out he asked what that was all about. “Its a typical day in Denver”. We always have cockpit door open so they hear everything the plane screams at ya.
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From the perspective of flying my Cub, I agree completely. But when I was working, trying to fly a pattern at the recommended flap maneuvering speed of 160 knots in a pattern with several light aircraft is interesting to say the least. You’re either overtaking people or having to widen out so far people are cutting inside your pattern. Our policy was like G280driver’s, stay IFR and fly the approach. This wasn’t to beat the system or cut the line, it was just deemed to be the least risky way to fly into uncontrolled fields. And in Canada, many times I’ve been told by radio to join the final. And KAPA is a controlled field, so just joining the pattern isn’t an option.
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G280Driver
FRIEND
It’s possible the Cirrus was flying 160kts. But its also possible the wind could have been a factor in that number. ATC speed is ground speed. Winds on the ground in the Denver area can be light and variable but at 1000 agl 40kts. I’ve see it personally. May last flight I had a tailwind all the way down final at less than 100 foot it switched to a quartering head wind, 120 degree change with a velocity change.
Block Island in MA has a mix of commercial and light aircraft without a tower and gets interesting on busy summer days.
I was renting out of KAPA and it’s a very busy airport. Last biannual we were planning on flying into KAPA, but sat in holding pattern for a long time then decided to go elsewhere.
I have no insight or opinion on this accident. I’m just pointing out first that closely spaced parallel runway operations are, in my opinion, highly questionable. Everyone has to be on their toes. Watching an airplane that’s closing on you At a right angle on base to a closely spaced parallel, you have to trust that he won’t overshoot final- at all. Second, it’s a challenge to mix high performance aircraft with light aircraft at an uncontrolled field- controllers struggle to do it at controlled fields at times. I’ve done go-arounds, 360’s on downwind and left the area to give things a chance to quiet down and never complained to the other aircraft. I ALWAYS thanked pilots who would say they’d widen out or extend or circle around and get behind us in the pattern. It’s just not correct to assume that someone’s trying to “cut the line” when they choose to fly an instrument approach and stay in radar contact as long as possible.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Okay, I’ll bite, If he had a 40 kit tailwind, why was he at an AIRspeed of 120 on BASE? This is a light GA airplane, not a jet, for cryin out loud. That is a ridiculous speed on close in base.
The problem is, we’re not teaching people to fly in many cases these days.
MTV
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
These are the people who are doing the instructing these days. Then we give them a full glass panel and teach them about numbers. The bulk of the cockpit time is spent staring at their gadgets.
When someone says "he/she has you in sight" never ever believe nor depend on him/her.
TVATIVAK71
SPONSOR
ANC
Hear it almost every day at work....ATC “Do you have traffic in sight?” Pilot “Not in sight but I got them on TCAS/the screen/ADS-B/Fish finder.” Not just private or student pilots saying this either. Bugs the hell outta me when other pilots reply to ATC’s query with that answer. If it’s not visible with your eyeballs.........it’s not in sight. Even then, is it really the one your supposed to acknowledge.
Utah-Jay
MEMBER
Heber City, UT
G280Driver
FRIEND
Again not sticking up for the Cirrus pilot, and maybe my primary instructor was a little over the top. But he drilled into me to be able to run full cruise speed until a point which you had to have a feel for. At that point pull carb heat, chop the power and cross the numbers on speed at 50 foot. Left traffic, right traffic, straight in. Use flaps, slip, anything you wanted except power. He made a game out of it. But it paid dividends later when I was flying 182 daily into bigger airports. Even flying cruise speed down an ILS it wasn’t uncommon to get pulled off the approach so something faster (airline) could go by.
Like any accident its an accumulation of little things till they get big. Obviously the Cirrus over shot and speed could have been a contributing factor, the previous controller could have told him to keep the speed up. If the Cirrus had started to correct being a low wing would have been a visibility challenge. I agree there is too much time fiddling with wiz bang stuff in a terminal area. I dont have adsb in my bug smasher for several reasons one of which is no desire to fly it in congested areas. Im just glad no one was hurt and hopefully it will force some change with ATC in that specific area.
Like any accident its an accumulation of little things till they get big. Obviously the Cirrus over shot and speed could have been a contributing factor, the previous controller could have told him to keep the speed up. If the Cirrus had started to correct being a low wing would have been a visibility challenge. I agree there is too much time fiddling with wiz bang stuff in a terminal area. I dont have adsb in my bug smasher for several reasons one of which is no desire to fly it in congested areas. Im just glad no one was hurt and hopefully it will force some change with ATC in that specific area.
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