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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2321
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcone1381 View Post
    This brings up a question in my mind of which rules am I suppose to know, understand and follow? It seems to me like if a state, or county makes up a rule that is in conflict with FAR 91, then a court would rule in favor of part 91 as having a higher authority than the local law. Finding the pilot guilty twice for the same act, even for a stupid act, does not seem holy and righteous in the eyes of the constitution to me. The cut/paste from FAR 91 seems to tump local law.

    §91.101 Applicability.

    This subpart prescribes flight rules governing the operation of aircraft within the United States and within 12 nautical miles from the coast of the United States.
    That's a good and maybe complicated question. Federal regs preempt state law with regard to aviation safety. We know that federal regs do not preempt zoning laws, state drug laws, etc. Here it looks like the law is more directed to aviation safety rather than traditional criminal activity and might be invalid.

    I can't answer the question off-hand, but if I were tasked with defending this guy, that is the first place I'd look.
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  2. #2322
    aviatoraf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Is there any chance of getting copies of both sections? I’m sure they would be good food for thought, whether picking up a Cub or a jet.
    I created a post-maintenance checklist in ForeFlight a couple yrs ago after attending a Mike Busch seminar on the topic. Glad to share it if I can figure out how to export it from ForeFlight.


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  3. #2323

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    Anyone want to comment on this one? Interesting how the tail bounced up a little with what looked like an Acme shock-stinger. Too bad! Props to you guys that compete! Braver than I.
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  4. #2324
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    In YouTube click HD mode then select playback speed - like half or less. Watch that tail spring kick back up and help the braking action. He had full up elevator the whole ground trip but little airspeed. Interesting fences on the outboard flaps and wing tips. I did this once too in a Cub with locked up overheated left brake. Learning is expensive.

    Gary
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  5. #2325

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    Nothing appeared to be damaged. It’s a GA Sensenich prop. No resin fractures. Not even a scratch. The prop had to have flexed a huge amount. Really lucky.

    He had some of the best steep approaches of the competition taking full advantage of his acmes.
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  6. #2326
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    It's a challenge to react quick......when the tail goes up so should elevator and power - easy to say but hard to do plus leg weight on brakes makes it even tougher

    Gary
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  7. #2327
    aviatoraf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    It's a challenge to react quick......when the tail goes up so should elevator and power - easy to say but hard to do plus leg weight on brakes makes it even tougher

    Gary
    So, would the best course of action been to keep full stick back and goose the power, to get more airflow over the upwardly deflected horizontal stab to push the tail back down before he nosed over?

  8. #2328
    skukum12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    It's a challenge to react quick......when the tail goes up so should elevator and power - easy to say but hard to do

    Gary
    I completely agree. I always thought "Why would anyone go up on the nose? The pilot has all day to blow the tail down." Nobody, and I mean nobody realizes how quick this comes at you until you have done it. A recovery from this situation would need to be practiced untill 2nd nature. Not sure how that would be accomplished without shelling out the dough for several engine teardowns though.
    "Always looking up"
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  9. #2329
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    No kidding! I guess one acquires a sixth sense for when it's decelerating too much - get on the power and off the brakes. Stick pulled back to the spine, of course.
    Gordon

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  10. #2330
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I've "practiced" it on skis when heavy surface drag in deep snow can raise the tail. Not the same situation I agree as the rear safety cables limit nose down behavior. But a pre-landing prep might include an "if the tail comes up on this baby then this up elevator/power crap is next". With an aft CG load it's an unlikely situation unless major obstructions are present on a rough strip. Not the case here in a contest.

    Flaps can blank and reduce elevator authority in my experience. Dump them quick on landing as they no longer offer any benefit. I used to hit the flap lever in a C-185 when braking heavily with my right elbow to do that. It quickly flops forward. Cubs would take some extra effort.

    Gary
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  11. #2331

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    I am not a big fan of the bigger shocked tail springs because they hurt AOA on takeoff, but, in this case the problem was all pilot induced. People think that because you are slow it is harder to get on the nose. This is not true!! It is very easy to put a cub on its nose from a standstill, The plane looked like it was trimmed nose up for close to landing speed (Had a few turns left ) I do more but what he had was fine and more would most likely not changed the outcome. The trick is when you get that slow you can only lock one wheel at a time. I was able to do what he did on skis! Harder to do but it can be done. I just go done with 3 back to back weekends of STOL comps, We have been lucky this year and no issues to date. My hat is off to anyone that is willing to come out and push the edge knowing your every mistake can be reposted everyday for the next 20 years!!!!
    DENNY
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  12. #2332
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    CG ........................... At or ahead of the forward limit.
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  13. #2333
    DJ's Avatar
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    Looks like a tailwind breeze kicked up during rollout. Thanks for the reminder to be careful out there.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1

  14. #2334

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    I love watching these competitions....I think they are good for GA....The desire to place well sometimes puts a little pressure on the pilot and possible causes a slightly higher risk of a noseover I guess.....your mind is telling you to stop as short as possible further delaying a possible recovery when things strat to happen. I'm not a big competitor so I'll sit back and watch.....some impressive talent out there on these things, It can help hone skills.....or (sadly) cause a teardown of a good motor.

  15. #2335

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    Do the flags appear to show a quartering tailwind? Yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post


    Anyone want to comment on this one? Interesting how the tail bounced up a little with what looked like an Acme shock-stinger. Too bad! Props to you guys that compete! Braver than I.

  16. #2336
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    I don't think the tail bounced up as much as it was the braking action and perhaps the tail getting even lighter by the low ground speed at that point, the tail wind gust perhaps and the full up elevator giving said wind access to the underside of the tail and making it lighter/raising it.

  17. #2337

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    The wind was pretty much out of the west. Joe was landing to the N. If there was a temporary shift to a quartering tail wind it was minimal. The sponsor feathers exaggerate it.

    If you play the game long enough, stuff will happen. It’s always nice to have a cause and effect with things to make it easier to rationalize. Joe needed less brake and a heavier tail. Joe’s smart. I bet he’s made mental notes that will get used next time.
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  18. #2338

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    Lots of people helping by pushing the aft lift strut. Is that considered ok on a PA-18?

  19. #2339
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Lots of people helping by pushing the aft lift strut. Is that considered ok on a PA-18?
    I wondered that too. Pushing the middle of those struts made wince a little.


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  20. #2340
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Looks like he almost had a little too much help there towards the end. I've found, at least on the RANS S-7S, that the same person who put it on the nose to start with can safely lower it without causing further damage.

  21. #2341
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Looks like he almost had a little too much help there towards the end. I've found, at least on the RANS S-7S, that the same person who put it on the nose to start with can safely lower it without causing further damage.
    When ever there is a crowd of airplane people about, they all want to get in on the act to help. Some in their zeal to help can actually do some unintentional damage.
    N1PA
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  22. #2342
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Looks like he needs a bushwheel spacer tail wheel weight
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  23. #2343

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    Has anyone ever considered "Pilot Error", that he just stood on the brakes too hard for too long.
    When you are at speed you can use the brakes to decelerate rather hard, BUT as you slow down and have reducing airflow over the tail, you have to modulate the brakes since they over power the ability of the tail to keep an acceptable attitude.

    Sure a blast of throttle might allow the elevator some additional authority BUT the addition of thrust negates what the brakes are being used for not to mention that thrust is up high and it alone- will bring the craft over on it's nose.

    If anyone understands motion dynamics and how aerodynamic forces are at play you will realize with a conventional gear aircraft backing off the brake as the aircraft slows down is a normal and mandatory procedure due to reducing influence of airflow over the craft.

    If the pilot can not recognize the pitch change induced by over use of the brakes, there is little chance a hit of throttle would do him well since that will more than likely only bring the aircraft onto it's nose.

    There are reasons why some people win while most others loose. And some loose big time.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  24. #2344
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Blowing the tail down works. Flying skis in wet or deep snow it just part of a normal landing. If it didn't work you would never be able to do a WOT run up. I agree about the error part though. Not throwing stones, I have done my own boo boos.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  25. #2345

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    But blowing the tail down when under heavy braking requires more than just the throttle application when simple modulating the brakes is far more responsive for reducing the issue.
    Kind of like landing of snow, you do not know for sure just what you will need to react too on each landing, and you will and are many fold more able to cope with that situation than I simply due to me having little experience in that world.

    I recently got back on a road race motorcycle where I have not even been riding on the street in decades. Within hours I was braking into corners with the rear tire off the ground as I always used to in the '70s and 80s when I brought home trophies most every weekend. An instructor had been riding behind me, he came over after a session with a concern that the rear wheel was in the air as I turn in to each corner. My statement was, "How else do you do it". He, like many had just never learned the finesse to ride into turns that way.

    To aggressively decelerate a plane using brakes, you first must learn to properly modulate the brakes. Bandaiding the action with throttle application is no where near as good as learning the art of "threshold braking". Seems to be something never even considered to be taught in the aircraft world but is a skill of utmost necessity in other sports. And those skills need to be considered in short landing contests which are much easier to loose than to win, especially on tarmac.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  26. #2346
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Looks like he needs a bushwheel spacer tail wheel weight
    His tail weight is even more cleaver than that.
    Steve Pierce

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  27. #2347
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Amazing thing to me is the prop flexed so much and is unscathed. He called me Sunday evening and is super impressed with it. Super smooth and pulls harder than his best Catto. He told me he had not flown a lot this year and I bet that was a huge contributing factor. It is a bad feeling when that tail starts coming up, I am easying off breaks and pulling hard on that stick. I am not wired to hit the throttle to blast the tail down when trying to stop. I also noticed he didn't dump his flaps when he landed.
    Steve Pierce

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  28. #2348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Amazing thing to me is the prop flexed so much and is unscathed. He called me Sunday evening and is super impressed with it. Super smooth and pulls harder than his best Catto. He told me he had not flown a lot this year and I bet that was a huge contributing factor. It is a bad feeling when that tail starts coming up, I am easying off breaks and pulling hard on that stick. I am not wired to hit the throttle to blast the tail down when trying to stop. I also noticed he didn't dump his flaps when he landed.

    I certainly hopes he sends those blades in for inspection or gets new ones. I truly don't want to read later about a blade departing and it ending poorly. I LOVE the prop he is using and have advocated for it as you know, however, a strike like that an I would never trust it again. Might fail in one hour, Might fail in 20 hrs, but its a very high probability that it WILL fail.
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  29. #2349
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I just heard from Joe. He is sending the prop to Sensenich for inspection.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  30. #2350
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    So, would an intentional ground loop give you a chance? Maybe not enough time, but maybe it would be enough to get the cg behind the wheels


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  31. #2351

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    If he had added power as the tail rose, wouldn’t the blast of air under the flaps have lightened and lifted the tail even more before that air had a chance to reach the tail feathers? It seems to me that prop wash wouldn’t reach the tail much at all with the flaps down.

  32. #2352
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I just heard from Joe. He is sending the prop to Sensenich for inspection.
    Yep, was talking to Sensenich this morning and they said he was sending it in for inspection. Joe said it was still smooth as silk after repitching for cruise.
    Steve Pierce

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  33. #2353
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I found that heel brakes are harder to modulate (if that's the right term) than toe pedals. Might be me tho. It's just easier for me to retract my boot tip than pull back the whole foot and attached leg to get the heel pressure lower, especially when they get heavy on deceleration. Guess that's why the old 4" brakes are maybe easier on props.

    Gary

  34. #2354
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I had a composite prop on the Rotax bite the dirt once, and it looked OK after I got the tail down, but a little push on the tip showed it had partially delaminated, not unexpected after that hit. Real obvious also once it was flexed just a bit, not much chance of not noticing it before taking off again anyway, which is a good thing.
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  35. #2355
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Amazing thing to me is the prop flexed so much and is unscathed. He called me Sunday evening and is super impressed with it. Super smooth and pulls harder than his best Catto. He told me he had not flown a lot this year and I bet that was a huge contributing factor. It is a bad feeling when that tail starts coming up, I am easying off breaks and pulling hard on that stick. I am not wired to hit the throttle to blast the tail down when trying to stop. I also noticed he didn't dump his flaps when he landed.
    Me neither, I am more inclined, and have done so 2 or 3 times with good effect, to hit the "mags" (Rotax...) and the master, both located where they can be instantly swiped, and with NO safety guards over them, I want to be able slap them, not fit my fingers into the guards and then depress them, but that's me. Hitting throttle seems a bit, a lot, counter intuitive. I have still taken out a prop (actually just one blade, the SAME blade, of a 3 blade prop) twice, but the engine was powered down and other than replacing that single blade no other damage was done. The other 2 blades couldn't believe their luck!
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  36. #2356
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Oops, darn it...

    Composite props are amazing. I’m glad Don is going to take a look at Joe’s.

    Here’s a couple photos of mine after I destroyed the cub. The prop was quite an article to inspect as the carbon fiber shell was largely intact, after damage that would have broken or curled a metal prop around itself. But the core of the prop was largely destroyed by the frontal impact with terra firma at wide open throttle.
    Nothing like Joe’s slight nose over. His may be fine.

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    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…
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  37. #2357
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    People seem to be concentrating on whether or not the prop is OK.
    But prop OK or not, the engine has still suffered a sudden stoppage,
    and would require a teardown inspection per the Lycoming SB / AD, eh?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  38. #2358
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just got off the phone with Joe who just got off the phone with the Sensenich engineer who inspected his blade. No problem found, not even a scratch.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  39. #2359
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Bird Strike Test.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  40. #2360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Bird Strike Test.
    The "Chicken Gun" at Cessna was more fun, just saying...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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