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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2481
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    That Mooney will fly itself in the clouds, it will climb, descend turn whatever it is asked to do. All the pilot has to do is touch a button once in awhile. To spiral out of a cloud with any of the cruising planes is a total failure of the command to guide the craft. No value in a G meter, you should never generate a recordable number when flying. With most any handheld device as well as what he had in the panel most all the weather to be avoided is displayed.
    It will be interesting to learn how this guy found a way to fold up his nearly new airplane. All I can figure is, at 10 miles out he was trying to hand fly the approach which should have been doable on autopilot still. Possibly there was a procedure turn he was hand flying and botched that up.
    You make hand flying in clouds sound like a crime. If you can’t hand fly an airplane through ANY instrument procedure, you probably shouldn’t be flying in cloud.

    MTV
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  2. #2482

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    No value in a G meter, you should never generate a recordable number when flying.
    What do you mean by "a recordable number". The G meter always reads some value and, if it is linked to a recording system, all values are recorded. I agree that a knowledge of normal acceleration (G) is not useful for aircraft control in IMC.

    If this was a recent model Mooney it will likely have been fitted with a "glass panel" which will have recorded multiple parameters to probably 1 second resolution. It shouldn't be difficult for the investigation team to determine the sequence of events.

  3. #2483

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    The images I saw of this plane looked like a single display in the center stack, otherwise round gauges.
    I agree about hand flying in clouds but that is where many of the issues can rear their head and this guy was claimed to not be a high hour pilot. But in my opinion hours flown does not guarantee competency if the person has very few hands on hours especially in the soup.

    This plane was visually reported to have come out of the cloud in a steep banked turn, initiated a steep pull out which broke the main spar. To the best of my knowledge only one other Mooney spar has been broken in recent years. These planes are not known to break up.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  4. #2484

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    A Mooney was involved in a multiple fatality accident a few days ago in Minnesota
    The ADS-B data for the final few minutes of this flight is very disturbing. Shortly after intercepting what appears to be an approach for runway 10L or 10R at KFCM the data shows a descent rate of about 3,000 fpm, followed by a climb at about 2,000 fpm, then another 3,000 fpm descent, then a 3,000 fpm climb. The log ends with over 11,000 fpm descent rate indicated.
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 08-13-2021 at 09:03 PM.

  5. #2485

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    I don’t like to talk about this stuff until everything is known, but it appears there is not a lot of mystery here. Any GA airplane can be pushed beyond design limits with predictable results. You have to be able to competently hand fly an aircraft in IMC if you intend to operate in the clouds. Automation has become an issue across the aviation spectrum as too many rely on it in lieu of pilot competence. I saw this frequently when performing pre-employment simulator evaluations on professional pilots. And as a side note, our jets had g-meters that only displayed on the ground to measure acceleration and deceleration during operations on contaminated runways. Your butt will easily tell you all you need to know once airborne.

  6. #2486

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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    The ADS-B data for the final few minutes of this flight is very disturbing.
    As an instrument rated pilot I try to learn all I can from the mistakes made by others.

    The first sign of loss of control happens almost exactly 10 nm out with a left turn and a 3,000 fpm descent. The IAF for RNAV 10L has a left procedure turn which is not required for the heading that was being flown. I speculate that the AP was engaged and tried to fly the procedure turn.

    Anyone who flies with an autopilot must expect it to misbehave and must be able to take over control after disconnect. It's one thing to be legally instrument current, quite another to be instrument proficient.

  7. #2487
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    It's one thing to be legally instrument current, quite another to be instrument proficient.
    Two entirely separate qualifiers.
    N1PA

  8. #2488
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    Did I miss anyone mention vertigo or TIA?
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  9. #2489

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaworthy View Post
    Did I miss anyone mention vertigo or TIA?
    He did have a second pilot next to him.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  10. #2490

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    He did have a second pilot next to him.
    Reported to be a student pilot. Not likely to be of much help if the accident sequence started with loss of control in IMC.
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  11. #2491

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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Reported to be a student pilot. Not likely to be of much help if the accident sequence started with loss of control in IMC.
    I do not consider that to be true at all. If his equilibrium was still stable he could well have at a minimum brought forward the question about position and stability. Would not be the first time a right seater saved a day. They have been known to be called a safety pilot in the past.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  12. #2492

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    As chips were flying from the material on my lathe a thought came to mind. When running on autopilot, medium to hard bumps can trip off the auto pilot. Happened to us both on the way out to Osh and the return back east this year.
    Depending on the trim the AP being kicked out can go unnoticed and could well be unnoticed until a substantial deviation occurs. Being 10 miles out he would have been on the "downhill run", the speed is right up there. When the AP kicks out this might have been unnoticed till the point of an aggressive input during the attempt at correction results in what the outcome we see was.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  13. #2493
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Your subconscious mind was working on those thoughts Charlie. Use it.

    Gary
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  14. #2494
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Close one yesterday in a local Caravan: AIRCRAFT DECLARED AN EMERGENCY DUE TO FLIGHT CONTROL ISSUES, RETURNED TO FAIRBANKS AND IT WAS DISCOVERED THAT THE RIGHT AILERON WAS TORQUED, FAIRBANKS, AK. Pilot saved the day.

    Gary




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  15. #2495

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    Torqued as in twisted or deformed?
    Need to see who drove the most recent truckload of packages to it.
    Last edited by CharlieN; 08-17-2021 at 02:00 PM. Reason: I could
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  16. #2496
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Torqued as in twisted or deformed?
    Note the right aileron in the preliminary pics...plus the ADS-B plots of altitude and speed. God was her co-pilot.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 08-17-2021 at 06:54 PM. Reason: changed airspeed to speed - ADS-B data

  17. #2497
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    Looks like the result of a flutter event. Ugly. Was this a Wright’s Caravan, Gary?

    MTV

  18. #2498

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Looks like the result of a flutter event. Ugly. Was this a Wright’s Caravan, Gary?

    MTV
    ADN is reporting that it was a Wright's flight.

    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...ght-ntsb-says/

  19. #2499
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Yes Wright's with thankfully an experienced pilot at the wheel. Plane's in the hangar - right aileron bent as in pic above. They don't like ice (lots of blood from that) and it's a booted not TKS weep airplane. But maybe as Mike suggests a flutter event. More later. Read the passenger comments above.

    Gary

  20. #2500
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Yes Wright's with thankfully an experienced pilot at the wheel. Plane's in the hangar - right aileron bent as in pic above. They don't like ice (lots of blood from that) and it's a booted not TKS weep airplane. But maybe as Mike suggests a flutter event. More later. Read the passenger comments above.

    Gary
    Caravan is a good ice airplane once they figured out the tail accreted ice faster than the wing. “Old” procedures (Dont cycle the boots till substantial ice has accreted) killed a few folks, till someone did some actual research…….

    MTV

  21. #2501
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Read AD 2007-10-15 regarding dealing with icing conditions in a C-208. Not saying that's the cause here as it's way early to point

    Edit: Now it's severe turbulence> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/266836 Time will tell all.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 08-17-2021 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Change of rumor

  22. #2502
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    Angel Aviation PA-14, 3 on board, Beluga River at Olson Creek.

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  23. #2503
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    Like my old buddy PAK used to say, is that fish down there worth wrecking this airplane?
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  24. #2504
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  25. #2505

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    Damn, I rented that PA-14 for a few tailwheel lessons. Beautiful airplane and recently rebuilt! A real shame! This can't be good for Angel at Merrill, they just lost a 172 with a CFI and discovery flight student at Eagle River in July!

    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N4226H

  26. #2506

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    How were they able to get that PA-14 to 2,400lbs gross weight?

  27. #2507
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKClimber View Post
    How were they able to get that PA-14 to 2,400lbs gross weight?
    Very good question.


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  28. #2508

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter7779h View Post
    Very good question.


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    I only flew it for a few hours. It could definitely land in 300 feet or so, but getting it back off the ground in that distance was another issue with more than one person aboard, even with the O-360.

  29. #2509
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    A few days ago at our local airport, a reminder that weight and balance is important even after parked.

    https://www.aviationnepal.com/united...ground-strike/

    I guess a plane full of college football players weighs a bit more than the standard passenger load.

    For the charter ATPs out there, how do you figure weight and balance for a big airplane full of big people?

  30. #2510
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    The Captain shouldn’t have got off first…….that huge wallet plays a big part in weight and balance calculations.

  31. #2511
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVATIVAK71 View Post
    The Captain shouldn’t have got off first…….that huge wallet plays a big part in weight and balance calculations.
    I was always it had to do with the hat size, lol.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  32. #2512
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    Tail stands are pretty common. I’ve been on flights where we were told to stay seated until a tail stand was placed. I’ve read that in big airports they use a nosewheel strap instead of a tail stand.

  33. #2513
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVATIVAK71 View Post
    The Captain shouldn’t have got off first…….that huge wallet plays a big part in weight and balance calculations.

    Not what I heard. Aren't all captains thrice divorced and live in vans down by rivers?
    "Always looking up"

  34. #2514

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Damn, I rented that PA-14 for a few tailwheel lessons. Beautiful airplane and recently rebuilt! A real shame! This can't be good for Angel at Merrill, they just lost a 172 with a CFI and discovery flight student at Eagle River in July!

    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N4226H

    It was a beautiful plane and I planned to ask if I could get a picture of the panel (pretty good mix of simplicity and functionality) after I did a flight review in it recently. Sad.
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  35. #2515
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Tail stands are pretty common
    I had a summer job in high school at the local FBO. They also operated a fleet of Ag planes and a fleet of Cessna 337s and Aero Commander 500's for forest fire birddogging. One day after removing the de-icer boots from an Aero Commander I'm told to climb up on the stabilizer and touch-up some paint. Guy said they do it all the time (climb on the stab). Well, I go up there and start sanding at the base of the fin and as I proceed upward I slowly moved rearward with the fin slope...and then I get a sinking feeling and rode it all the way to the floor. It was quite a sight to have the thing sitting on its tail in the hangar and it took some effort to get it down slowly ("Hey kids, don't jump off yet!"). Afterwards everybody is standing around wondering what was different this time until we remembered the day before we had pulled the engines for overhaul. They made up tail stands for maintenance work after that - the first was named Jeff after me
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  36. #2516

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  37. #2517
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    There’s another view that shows him making a running turn out of a parking lot, getting the tail up, then running it off into the median when he tried to force it off before it would fly. Would’ve made it if he’d kept it on the pavement.

  38. #2518

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    That will hurt the wallet cause insurance might not be covering that one.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  39. #2519

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    At least he’s alive to reach for his own wallet


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  40. #2520
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Remember the wheel marks on the wing the other day?

    Midair collision...
    (13/October/2021)
    - United States of America :
    According to the NTSB and FAA, on October 13rd, a private Cessna 180J Skywagon, registration N9966N, collided with an unknown aircraft while flying near Sutton, Alaska.
    The Skywagon landed with substantial damage to one of the wings, the sole pilot onboard was not injured. The other plane continued flying and the FAA/NTSB are looking for the pilot.

    "The National Transportation Safety Board is looking for a plane that reportedly collided with another aircraft in midair last week and kept flying.

    Around 1 p.m. Wednesday, a Cessna 180 was in a collision near Sutton that substantially damaged a wing of the plane, NTSB Alaska chief Clint Johnson said Saturday.

    The pilot of the Cessna was able to land safely, and no injuries were reported. But the NTSB is still searching for the other plane, which Johnson said continued flying, and its pilot has not yet come forward to report the accident.

    “We don’t think there was any damage to the other plane, but we don’t know that because it kept going,” Johnson said.

    “This is an accident, and we’re trying to figure out what took place. We’d like to get both sides of the story,” he said. “So we are actively looking for that airplane.”

    Authorities are reviewing air traffic control recordings in the area but haven’t been able to come up with any further information so far, Johnson said."

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