Oops, darn it...

You would think their insurance would have minimums on time in type.....


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Insurance????? We need insurance for this ****????

That is not even vaguely challenging conditions for a Beaver. Yeah, as Pete says, five hours in a J-3 on floats, and next you're doing a 135 check in a Beaver, and carrying passengers and freight.

That is scary stuff, right there.

MTV

Ok guys, take a seat and crack a beer...

Yup, he got HIRED with only 5 hours of SES, in who knows or cares what.

There are companies that hire lower time guys, and have a training program to teach them. Metlakatla is not what one would call a challenge, and I bet it was a light load with good weather.

But consider some facts: Training- the pilot had to do training with an instructor pilot, 5-10 hours; check ride, 2 hours; IOE, 5 hours before the pilot can fly; that would be a minimum. Also take into account that he had been around for 20 days, so took some ride-a-longs. The guy had 1,600 hours in aircraft, so should know how to fly. By the time he was checked out I bet he had over 20 in the beaver.

Many companies put new pilots in beavers because under normal circumstances they forgive everything but steep turns without flaps down. They start new pilots on simple runs to let them learn and get the feel. The picture shows what appears to be a very EASY day for a beaver pilot!

Now, what could have gone wrong? The only thing in the picture that catches my attention is what looks to be a larger series of waves to the left of the plane, (look for three parallel lines of breaking wave). Some larger boats will send two sets of wake- bow and engine, with the engine wake being larger. Seems seine boats were out in the harbor, and they can send a huge wake!

So one thought and explanation would be that the plane touched down, went into a wake causing a rocking motion then stubbed the left toe into a big wake unexpectedly. The right rudder can be accounted for from a crosswind, but if it hit a wake wrong that is bad.

In that frame of thought- I know multi thousand hour float guys that don't fly salt water, and could have missed seeing a wake. In small chop wakes can hide, and they travel for miles at times.

Oh but for the grace of god go I.

Some folks have boating experience before flying floats but others may not. How the boat or float hull can react to wind and waves, including any wakes or long period offset swells, is worth knowing for both. Lots to learn in a short time sadly for the pilot and passenger.

Gary

BC12D-4-85 said:

Some folks have boating experience before flying floats but others may not. How the boat or float hull can react to wind and waves, including any wakes or long period offset swells, is worth knowing for both. Lots to learn in a short time sadly for the pilot and passenger.

Gary

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Ageed, we all start somewhere, and hope we don't stop learning... new things every day

https://www.adn.com/bush-pilot/article/legends-alaska-aviation-rod-judy/2012/09/27/

I met Rod in 1965 then later as a passenger until he left Afton Coon for others. More: https://www.kfsk.org/2012/10/24/two-former-petersburg-pilots-honored-as-aviation-legends/

What's broken is the oral how-to history of Alaskan flying and shared experience between them and those that are new. Not many are willing to mentor and their experiences are paid for by tough times staying alive so I understand.

Gary

skywagon8a said:

I was thinking more of a quicky SES in a J-3 at Jon Brown's.

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Just what I was thinking Pete, I cant imagine you could get him insured? We used to think most lodge pilots had to have 500 hours on floats with 100hrs in TYPE to get any kind of a decent rate ? I remember in mid 80's
we had a new Kenmore Beaver delivered that because of toooo many
claims by the owner; He was not on the insurance policy! I was the sole insured to fly that airplane, if memory
serves me right they wanted exactly double to insure him in it......
I am shocked [emoji44] this 135 operator could get ANYONE insured in a $ 3/400,000 airplane with a fresh SES, and ZERO experence in type ????
The 1600 total could have likely been
around and around airports in a Cherokee.............. What is going on here ????? Hire a pilot with 1000hrs on
Floats of Alaska time preferably in Beavers and avoid all this......
This is likely money oriented. The going rate: in Alaska this summer, for experenced Beaver pilots; is $15K per
month. I bet this guy was hired to save
money, and likely in the grand a week category..........

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Seems like a low time float pilot would only be allowed to haul freight until he built up enough time to allow passengers? Poor gal who got in with him probably had no idea of his lack of experience. Sure sounds like a big lawsuit.
John

TurboBeaver said:

Just what I was thinking Pete, I cant imagine you could get him insured? We used to think most lodge pilots had to have 500 hours on floats with 100hrs in TYPE to get any kind of a decent rate ? I remember in mid 80's
we had a new Kenmore Beaver delivered that because of toooo many
claims by the owner; He was not on the insurance policy! I was the sole insured to fly that airplane, if memory
serves me right they wanted exactly double to insure him in it......
I am shocked [emoji44] this 135 operator could get ANYONE insured in a $ 3/400,000 airplane with a fresh SES, and ZERO experence in type ????
The 1600 total could have likely been
around and around airports in a Cherokee.............. What is going on here ????? Hire a pilot with 1000hrs on
Floats of Alaska time preferably in Beavers and avoid all this......
This is likely money oriented. The going rate: in Alaska this summer, for experenced Beaver pilots; is $15K per
month. I bet this guy was hired to save
money, and likely in the grand a week category..........

Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile app

Click to expand...

I think you’re right. There are two things at play here. To your point, SE companies don’t pay as well as they do up north. Never have. The other thing goes back to the first one: no comparable pay so the lions share of the experienced pilots aren’t available.

I avoid riding with the “big” scheduled commuters at all costs. I’ll take the single pilot operator or the one with a couple of Navajos and real pilots all day long.

If 5 hours time is cause for an accident how did any of us make it to 6?

Maybe there's more to the story.

Most of us didn't start out flying loaded Beavers on floats with innocent passengers.

Most of us were flying less forgiving planes in more challenging places with our families!

Low hours may be a contributor but if it is? I'd look at the pilot's training area and compare it to landing in a much bigger, much different space. I struggle when I fly into a new place that's a lot bigger than what I'm accustomed to. But I'm a mere mortal.

Where the third wheel is located on land planes can develop muscle and mental memory during landing. Nose draggers like to be planted forward to slow and steer and of course tailwheels the opposite. Keeping the bows of boats and floats up can help control direction by reducing forward wetted area and sudden nose drag from the hull. Not sure what experience the pilot may have relied on here.

Gary

I find it incomprehensible that they had a guy with that little seaplane experience (note I didn’t use the term “time”) flying a Beaver for hire, and carrying passengers.

Many folks think flying floats is easy, and sometimes it is. The wild card is that every landing and takeoff is an off airport evolution. Yes, even at Lake Hood. There are a lot of ways to screw up on floats, which is why insurance is so high.

And, a Beaver is a great airplane, but it is one which deserves a thorough checkout by a very experienced Beaver Pilot. I cringe every time I hear someone say “The Beaver flies just like a big Super Cub”.

MTV

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/business/boeing-737-max-crash.html


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I looked at the photo of the Metlakatla beaver landing and the spray from the floats doesn’t look right to me. It doesn’t seem to be right behind the floats and indicates to me maybe the plane was crabbed at touch down. That could explain the right wing going down and flip? Opinion. What do others think?

There was 10-15mph quartering tailwind.
He was landing to the west and the wind was from SE.

Landing west with SE tailwind would blow spray to other side of beaver. If landing straight ahead left wing should be down and left float touching first. I think beaver touched down crabbed as wings were level. As all float pilots know, you must not touch down with floats crabbed to the direction of the aircraft.

In the NTSB picture it definitely looks like the wind is blowing from right to left.
Is 10 knot quartering tailwind a handful in a beaver?
it definitely would hold my attention in the 170.

stewartb said:

Most of us were flying less forgiving planes in more challenging places with our families!
.

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True, but most of our family and friends knew that we were low-time pilots and at least partially understood the lack of experience that they were signing up for.

Not sure I’d climb into a floatplane in Southeast with a pilot with such little time on floats. I flew with this operator a couple years ago. If I ever did again, I sure as hell will be asking some questions.

I recognize the overall low time on floats, but for experience in-type how does one get Beaver time other than commercially? Honest question - - -

Edit: I have just a few hours more on floats than to get the rating. No way would I consider holding myself out for hire on floats. But still, how does one go about getting experience in a plane that is almost exclusively used commercially?

For whatever cause or technique the floats were eventually wetted too far forward...quick excessive drag and maybe a turn/broach like in the video linked earlier. Hold or trim the bow up against the nose down attitude of the effective Beaver flaps as I recall.

Gary

Gordon Misch said:

I recognize the overall low time on floats, but for experience in-type how does one get Beaver time other than commercially? Honest question - - -

Edit: I have just a few hours more on floats than to get the rating. No way would I consider holding myself out for hire on floats. But still, how does one go about getting experience in a plane that is almost exclusively used commercially?

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I didn't intend to comply that a commercial operator needs tons of Beaver "time". Read my post. It's EXPERIENCE that really counts, plus a thorough and intensive check out in the Beaver. This guy had no EXPERIENCE in seaplanes, apparently. Even flying Cubs on floats will teach you a lot about winds, waves, wakes, etc, etc. You learn that stuff FIRST, then when you get checked out in the Beaver, you have a good basis of EXPERIENCE upon which to base your checkout experience.

And then, frankly, it'd be a good idea to have that pilot work freight runs first, though that's not always possible.

But, as I pointed out, there is a world of ways to get in trouble in a seaplane.

Quartering tailwinds: I once landed with one during an annual checkride. The check airman questioned why I had done so. My response was because I was well aware of the wind, and because of obstacles, landing that direction made more sense, given the conditions. And, I compensated for it just fine.

So, yes, a quartering tailwind isn't a great thing, but with the knowledge and skills from experience on floats, it shouldn't be a big deal. As with most things in off airport flying, it depends......

All deHavilland Canada airplanes glide nose down. Raise the nose, and you'll be behind the power curve really quick and sinking like a stone. So, on approach to land in a float equipped Beaver, you have to make a VERY significant rotation of the nose in the flare to prevent touching too far forward on the floats, which Gary has pointed out in this case. And, if the plane is light and forward CG, which may well have been the case here, a shot of power during the flare will help that rotation and get the toes of the floats up prior to touch. Which does not appear to have been the case here. The Beaver I flew most was on amphibious floats, so was a very forward CG airplane, and this characteristic could really get your attention. Shouldn't be so bad on a straight float airplane, but still pronounced.

MTV

...learn that stuff FIRST, then when you get checked out in the Beaver...

Click to expand...

I did read it.;-) Time and experience in the environment, not just the airplane type. Of course, that makes good sense. In that vein, wheel off-airport experience would be of some benefit also. Agreed that the operational factors and the airplane specifics are somewhat separate parts of the whole.

AKClimber said:

There was 10-15mph quartering tailwind.

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The big jets have a 10 knot tail wind limit for both take off and landing. 10-15 mph tailwind in a big float plane with a student pilot (yes student) at the controls shows a lack of judgement on the pilot's part as well as the pilot's employer.

On the average I give 10 hours of instruction to my seaplane rating clients and some go as high as 14 hours if they are not as safe as I think they should be. And I sweat out every one of their check-rides thinking I missed something.

Taquan's preferred career opportunities for those interested: https://taquanair.com/careers/ They may need to raise the bar some.

Gary

It is not so much the need to raise the bar, they need to at least try to get close to their bar, Maybe I am wrong but 5 hours of seaplane experience does not seem to be real close to 500 Hrs.

And then after 10 or more hours for sea rating they get to start learning all the other nuances on floats, wind, waves, current, and more.
One does not know much until many hours/years later. On the water every one is different with all the variables.
Then try out a Widgeon and it shows you not much learned on floats, new learning curve every operation.
John

My time on water was in a Lake on a lake, I know I can't even consider myself able in a J3 on floats. But the guy with the 5hrs had to have a dream he could do it.