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  1. #2081
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    With such precise gps you would think it would be a simple app to make to tell you you are about to crash.


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  2. #2082
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    What are the odds it had the aural gear warning system which gets silenced and ignored?
    N1PA

  3. #2083

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    I question if I could ever be safe flying an amphib. I am way to use to "Gear down - before landing check." way too many years, way too many times. The folks who can afford to buy and insure and pleasure fly amphibs probably have the same background

    "Now, let me see....this time its water, leave it up. Next time its pavement, put it down, hey look at that pretty bird, and these mountains are awesome.....whats that threat over there I see...gotta watch out for that log, those rocks, wind shear along the cliff there...." is what would lead to a gear down catastrophe. A new environment with an interrupted thought. very sneaky and incidious.

    Mirror mirror on the strut, should my gear be down or up?

    I think MAYBE if I marked the gear lever as "Water / Pavement" I might catch on after a few errors. We gotta know our own collective limitations, folks. It does no good to send an arrogant message of stupidity. We gotta understand why....why so many. Who's doing it, why are they doing it, Whats going on, what training will prevent it. But for the grace of God, there go I.
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  4. #2084

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    Like Mike said - have gps control gear if landing on water or land. Had to post the obvious.

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  5. #2085

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    I flew a Widgeon, and then spent time with skywagon8a in a Twin Bee when I moved down to New England. Also got my SES in a Lake. Not sure when or who I learned it from, but the call on downwind was ALWAYS “this is a water landing, the wheels are up”, or “this is a land landing the wheels are down”, followed by a double verification of lights and looking at the mirror. After sky checked me out in the Bee, I had to train several of our other corporate department pilots followed by the checkride with sky. My Chief Pilot at the time was a real good stick, the problem was he knew it and he was my boss. He thought the mantra was silly for a guy like him. We’d been doing multiple water landings one day and decided to go to Hampton Airfield for lunch. Downwind, no call and no gear. I let him go till short final and said “say, this might be a good time to put the gear down”. He went around, and after we landed uneventfully we discussed that that landing would have been embarrassing but not fatal. In the water gear down would have been another story.
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  6. #2086
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    No amount of technology will prevent this type of accident. The GPS solution was pretty fully vetted and was unable to provide a reliable indication. There are too many scenarios where you are landing on pavement and over the water when the annuciation would be presented, and other times when landing on the water and over land when the annuciation would be presented. This would lead to the exact problem we have now where by the operator choses to pull the Circuit breaker on the system. The latest AGAS system and Laser gear advisory from Wipare makes an improvement on the technology but as long as we have people who dont use checklists we will have accidents.
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  7. #2087
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    what are the odds it had the aural gear warning system which gets silenced and ignored?
    100%......

    Mtv

  8. #2088
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcone1381 View Post
    "Now, let me see....this time its water, leave it up. Next time its pavement, put it down, hey look at that pretty bird, and these mountains are awesome.....whats that threat over there I see...gotta watch out for that log, those rocks, wind shear along the cliff there...." is what would lead to a gear down catastrophe. A new environment with an interrupted thought. very sneaky and incidious.

    Mirror mirror on the strut, should my gear be down or up?

    I think MAYBE if I marked the gear lever as "Water / Pavement" I might catch on after a few errors. We gotta know our own collective limitations, folks. It does no good to send an arrogant message of stupidity. We gotta understand why....why so many. Who's doing it, why are they doing it, Whats going on, what training will prevent it. But for the grace of God, there go I.
    Absolutely on your last statement, but it's not stupidity and it's not arrogance.

    Frankly, I think all the bells, whistles, bitching Bettys, etc, etc MAY in fact be counter productive. They give the pilot a false sense of security.

    When I started flying an amphib, it was a Beaver. The only gear warning system was a pair of mirrors, one under each wing. The gear system was manual, as in a hydraulic pump, and it took a few pumps to get the gear up or down.

    The fellow who checked me out in that plane initially, and a couple other old time Goose pilots who gave me recurrent rides in it, tried REALLY hard to get me to make a mistake with the gear. Like really really hard. Distractions by the dozens, even messing with the gear selector when I wasn't looking, ad nauseum.

    By the time they were done with me, I simply couldn't take the gear position for granted, ever.

    That's the key: You have to KNOW you're capable of doing it...of making that mistake and landing gear down in the water. You CANNOT tell yourself you'd never do that.....because you could, and you might. I know to this day that I have the capability of doing so....

    Those thoughts have to be in the forefront of your mind prior to landing. Passengers talking? Before modern intercoms with the "mute" function arrived, I'd just tell them to please be quiet.

    NO distractions, EVER, of any kind. If you get distracted, go around, get it together and do it again.

    We used the mirrors because they require you to take an ACTION....you have to move your head, look out the windows, focus on those little mirrors, and make an assessment. No Bitching Betty that's really easy to silence or just ignore.....but doesn't REQUIRE you to do anything.....too easy. Oh, and mirrors seldom fail......electricity take a dump? Mirrors still tell you where the gear's at. Have a failure of some kind? There are failures in some of these systems where a gear can be down, but the gear indicators show UP. Seen one of those on a 206.

    Bottom line: Operating an amphibious airplane is easy. And it can be VERY safe. But, it requires one thing of the pilot: Discipline. EVERY landing, no exceptions.

    When Jack Corey finished checking me out in that Beaver, he told me: "You're a little paranoid about that landing gear. And, that son, is a very good thing-don't ever lose that paranoia".

    Many years later, I did a SES with a good friend in a Cub on amphibs. I thought we did a good job. Months later, he called me one day, he'd been taking his young grand daughter for a short hop in his Cub on amphibs. Just take off from the airport, a mile or so to a big lake, and land in the water.....all the while talking to this young lady about the magic of flying-her first ever flight in a plane. You can guess the rest. Fortunately, they were in relatively shallow water, and he was able to get out and help the girl out.

    So, I failed him as an instructor pilot....I failed to instill that bit of paranoia in him that Jack had put firmly in my head. I felt terrible, and still do. I can't imagine this gentleman's horror after committing that error. And, yes, he had a gear indicator system, with all the bells and whistles, and he managed to ignore it.

    MTV
    Last edited by mvivion; 01-24-2021 at 03:33 PM.
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  9. #2089
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    The laser system is not foolproof, either. One of our local lakes is so muddy it routinely mistakes water for land.

  10. #2090
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    All very sobering. Makes me appreciate a guy I know who flies an amphibious Kodiak as well as his wheels-only PA-12.

    Even in the PA 12 he always calls out, "land landing, wheels down."

    He doesn't care what anyone thinks....
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  11. #2091
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    All very sobering. Makes me appreciate a guy I know who flies an amphibious Kodiak as well as his wheels-only PA-12.

    Even in the PA 12 he always calls out, "land landing, wheels down."

    He doesn't care what anyone thinks....
    One of our pilots forgot we put the 185 back on wheels from floats, he called king salmon tower “56j blah blah, for the river at king salmon... the tower guy just replied “well this is going to be interesting...” then reminded him he was on wheels


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  12. #2092
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    All very sobering. Makes me appreciate a guy I know who flies an amphibious Kodiak as well as his wheels-only PA-12.

    Even in the PA 12 he always calls out, "land landing, wheels down."

    He doesn't care what anyone thinks....
    And that’s a guy who’s setting himself up for....what? It becomes a “nothing call” on wheels, and if you play that game sooner or later, you’ll get them mixed up.

    Discipline, not rote. Geeez!

    MTV

  13. #2093

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    Well, I’ve always used GUMPS in fixed gear airplane.
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  14. #2094
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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    Well, I’ve always used GUMPS in fixed gear airplane.
    Me too. Gear: down and welded, tires not flat, brake pressure both sides....

    Now this time a year, wheel skis, select for correct surface skis up or down, fully retracted or fully out both sides, tires turning as skis actuate, valve in full detention, plus brake pressure and tires not flat. Lots of visual confirmation.


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  15. #2095
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    Don't get too ahead of yourself on the Husky accident. The flight of the airplane according to flight aware was approximately one minute off of a paved runway. If there was an engine issue he may not have time to get the gear up before hitting the water.

  16. #2096
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    And that’s a guy who’s setting himself up for....what? It becomes a “nothing call” on wheels, and if you play that game sooner or later, you’ll get them mixed up.

    Discipline, not rote. Geeez!

    MTV
    LOL. Well, like I said, he doesn't care.

    I do remember him looking out the windows to make sure the wheels were on, though.

  17. #2097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyingde View Post
    Don't get too ahead of yourself on the Husky accident. The flight of the airplane according to flight aware was approximately one minute off of a paved runway. If there was an engine issue he may not have time to get the gear up before hitting the water.
    A paved runway....is how long? A Husky, even on floats, should be airborne in what..seven hundred feet?

    One thing I’ve ALWAYS done on amphibs: Lift off, positive rate-gear is coming up....right now. For this reason. If you get a weird big sink, worst case, you touch on the keels, not a huge deal.....but, water just off the end....gear is up and housed...

    Sorry, folks, this stuff is going to make amphibious floats impossible to insure.

    Ask Lake Aircraft how that works. They were able to overcome their problem (wasn’t people landing gear down on water) and develop mandatory training programs. But, all the hundreds of thousands of $$ spent on gadgets, and we’re still doing this....regularly.

    MTV

  18. #2098
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyingde View Post
    Don't get too ahead of yourself on the Husky accident. The flight of the airplane according to flight aware was approximately one minute off of a paved runway. If there was an engine issue he may not have time to get the gear up before hitting the water.
    the engine is ALWAYS just about to quit...... plan accordingly...

  19. #2099
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    One of the best statements here:

    NO distractions, EVER, of any kind. If you get distracted, go around, get it together and do it again.

    I use the Gump check- and adapt to the plane. Undercarriage- water rudders up for floats, Gear selected proper- (four blue for water, four brown for land and count them, mirror check and count tires) for amphibious; Tires still inflated for strait wheels.

    If things happen on any retractable gear plane and I initiate a go-around, I go around the patch and come back. The amphibious planes when treated like the complex plane they are, can be safe, but take the time to do your Gump Check more than once, and don't short cut.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  20. #2100
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Tires still inflated for strait wheels.
    How do you determine the tires are inflated? My truck and car have a pressure readout for each tire. Is this system available for planes now?
    N1PA
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  21. #2101
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    How do you determine the tires are inflated? My truck and car have a pressure readout for each tire. Is this system available for planes now?
    Perhaps....here's an example product > https://tsttruck.com They offer external caps attached to the valve stem, flow through caps, internal sensors (tubeless) and whatever. There's a remote receiver and the pressure-temperature value range is programmable. Do they work on aircraft?

    Gary
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  22. #2102
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    A C170A went missing last week and is presumed crashed in the Strait of Juan de Fuca south of Vancouver island BC.
    It was on a flight from Ketchikan non-stop to Pt Angeles WA-- just over 600 miles.
    That's really stretching it with stock 42 gallon tanks, even with calm winds & no detouring.
    The general consensus here is that it ran out of fuel, pretty much within sight of Pt Angeles.
    So close and yet so far.....very sad.
    My takeaway from this is don't stretch your fuel:
    "when in doubt...don't".

    Kathryn's Report: Cessna 170A, N9114A: Fatal accident occurred in Port Angeles, Washington
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  23. #2103
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    This has been discussed a bit on the 170 Association forum. Some speculation that the pilot was hesitant to stop anywhere in Canada due to some legal issues in his background. In any case better to be in trouble and alive.

    Rich.

  24. #2104
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    Some followup on the rudder post issue.

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/0...ZIDemZO6gE&m=1


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  25. #2105

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    And that’s a guy who’s setting himself up for....what? It becomes a “nothing call” on wheels, and if you play that game sooner or later, you’ll get them mixed up.

    Discipline, not rote. Geeez!

    MTV
    I rarely find myself disagreeing with MTV, but I will disagree on this one. I fly multiple airframes in multiple configurations. It was drilled into me to specifically verify the gear type and condition and the landing surface that it applies to on every single landing. Just because the airplane isn't set up for multiple surfaces doesn't mean a critical landing surface error can't happen. A couple years ago a gentleman landed in the water at Soldotna with wheels installed. He was going to Soldotna and the airplane was to have floats installed and then that was the lake he would have operated off of.

    I agree that it needs to be deliberate, not rote, but I encourage pilots to apply a thoughtful examination of the gear and surface as part of the GUMPS process or whatever other pre-landing checklist is in use.
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  26. #2106
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    How do you determine the tires are inflated? My truck and car have a pressure readout for each tire. Is this system available for planes now?
    More of a conscious look at the tires to confirm what is on the plane and what surface I should be considering.

    Troy's comment about different types of gear is correct, sometimes a person can fly multiple equipment configurations, even on the same plane. That conscious look is even more important the more tired you are.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  27. #2107
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    This is what is left of an Experimental Taylorcraft that a friend of mine built about 25 years ago.. it had an 0-320 Lycoming.. 4th owner.. Engine lost power but was still running.. Almost made it to the field but hit a wire about 12 feet off the ground that is used for drying hemp.. Both guys got out before it burned up.. only reason those guys are walking is due to shoulder harness that were installed... Weather was clear but very cold with enough humidity for perfect icing conditions.. The way he describes the way it was running I’m sure that is what happened..





    Before in better days...



    Brian...


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  28. #2108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Hamon View Post
    I rarely find myself disagreeing with MTV, but I will disagree on this one. I fly multiple airframes in multiple configurations. It was drilled into me to specifically verify the gear type and condition and the landing surface that it applies to on every single landing. Just because the airplane isn't set up for multiple surfaces doesn't mean a critical landing surface error can't happen. A couple years ago a gentleman landed in the water at Soldotna with wheels installed. He was going to Soldotna and the airplane was to have floats installed and then that was the lake he would have operated off of.

    I agree that it needs to be deliberate, not rote, but I encourage pilots to apply a thoughtful examination of the gear and surface as part of the GUMPS process or whatever other pre-landing checklist is in use.
    It doesn’t sound like we’re really much in disagreement. As I said: “Discipline, not rote”. Nothing wrong with looking out the window to verify that you HAVE landing gear, but a person who lands a wheel plane in a lake has some serious issues going on......and shouldn’t be flying. I’m guessing that pilot was missing a couple other things.

    My point is, I’ve seen folks going through a GUMP check in a Cub, which is fine.....but they never looked out the window. If they’ll do that, the procedure has become rote, and perhaps useless.

    So, here’s a question, if that’s the attitude: Do you also “pretend” to decrease prop rpm after takeoff in a Cub? How about activating de-ice at the first sign of visible moisture in cold temps, or......?

    My argument is that your head should be in THAT airplane, not some generic concept of an airplane.

    And, a number of very experienced aviators have actually completed a GUMPS check in their new to them amphibian, just before landing in the water, gear down. A friend with over 20,000 hours did that.

    Fly the airplane you are IN, is my philosophy. That’s based on quite a bit of time going from one type to another frequently.

    But, whatever WORKS for you is fine with me. Just don’t EVER forget that you CAN make the big boo boo....trust me.

    MTV
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  29. #2109
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    And that’s a guy who’s setting himself up for....what? It becomes a “nothing call” on wheels, and if you play that game sooner or later, you’ll get them mixed up.

    Discipline, not rote. Geeez!

    MTV
    I was flying with a guy in a V tail bonanza. He is running through his checklist “avionics master on, brakes off” and we taxi out to call ground. He calls ground. Oh weird the avionics aren’t on. He did a bunch, almost all check list items. Calls them out way too fast but doesn’t DO them. Same guy who took off and got 30 miles away before looking out the windshield.


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  30. #2110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    A paved runway....is how long? A Husky, even on floats, should be airborne in what..seven hundred feet?

    One thing I’ve ALWAYS done on amphibs: Lift off, positive rate-gear is coming up....right now. For this reason. If you get a weird big sink, worst case, you touch on the keels, not a huge deal.....but, water just off the end....gear is up and housed...

    Sorry, folks, this stuff is going to make amphibious floats impossible to insure.

    Ask Lake Aircraft how that works. They were able to overcome their problem (wasn’t people landing gear down on water) and develop mandatory training programs. But, all the hundreds of thousands of $$ spent on gadgets, and we’re still doing this....regularly.

    MTV
    Saw on Facebook on the lake group, the insurance went up 98% this year.


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  31. #2111
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    I like my old edo anfibs. On one hand it sucks pumping it 150 times, over 2 min, but you know the gear is up. Even when you just landed on water, and took off from water, check the gear before landing. We are landing on_____ and the gear is _____. Then look out and see the gear is in the right spot. Don’t be in a rush and don’t get suckered into someplace, just like off airport flying. Don’t be on downwind at the airport and see your buddy on the lake and go land to say hi. Like was said above go around. You get distracted go around and try it again.


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  32. #2112

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I was flying with a guy in a V tail bonanza. He is running through his checklist “avionics master on, brakes off” and we taxi out to call ground. He calls ground. Oh weird the avionics aren’t on. He did a bunch, almost all check list items. Calls them out way too fast but doesn’t DO them. Same guy who took off and got 30 miles away before looking out the windshield.


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    It might be time to have a talk about Cockpit Management, Flows, DO Lists and Check Lists.
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  33. #2113
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    I teach in a TwinBee and find this is a easy airplane to get distracted in. I encourage getting the before landing check list done early them on base and final verbal and vis. Check the gear is where you want it. As stated above discipline, and to me that means never ever be lazy.

  34. #2114
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    I teach in a TwinBee and find this is a easy airplane to get distracted in. I encourage getting the before landing check list done early them on base and final verbal and vis. Check the gear is where you want it. As stated above discipline, and to me that means never ever be lazy.
    I need an instrument proficiency check, and some more twin time... Where is the Bee, or where will it be in fall and how much do you charge?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  35. #2115
    algonquin's Avatar
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    It’s in Northern NY, the owner and his friends are the only people we fly in it. The insurance is hard right now, crazy mins.
    I’ll be back in Seldovia by May if they lift the travel restrictions some and I get the vaccine shots. I’d be happy to fly with you if we can find a twin for you.

  36. #2116
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I was flying with a guy in a V tail bonanza. He is running through his checklist “avionics master on, brakes off” and we taxi out to call ground. He calls ground. Oh weird the avionics aren’t on. ....
    I agree with MTV about how a lot of these checklist recitations are done by rote.
    I was in the back seat of a friend's Apache on a training flight when he was working on his instrument ticket.
    Did all his checklist stuff early, & on final, did his "centerline check":
    "three green, props to go".
    Only I think his CFI pulled the breaker or something on the gear,
    so he didn't really have 3 green....
    But I guess he was used to saying it without really seeing it.
    Continued down to a pretty short final & finally the instructor asked him if it might not be a good idea to put the gear down.
    Pretty funny, but you can sure see what could easily happen in a real-world situation.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Thanks Coulee Clipper, flynlow thanked for this post
    Likes Airguide liked this post

  37. #2117

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    Just reported that a 185 crashed near Chitna, two fatalities!


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  38. #2118
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    A C170A went missing last week and is presumed crashed in the Strait of Juan de Fuca south of Vancouver island BC.
    It was on a flight from Ketchikan non-stop to Pt Angeles WA-- just over 600 miles.
    That's really stretching it with stock 42 gallon tanks, even with calm winds & no detouring.
    The general consensus here is that it ran out of fuel, pretty much within sight of Pt Angeles.
    So close and yet so far.....very sad.
    My takeaway from this is don't stretch your fuel:
    "when in doubt...don't".

    Kathryn's Report: Cessna 170A, N9114A: Fatal accident occurred in Port Angeles, Washington
    Pilot information has been released:

    Downed pilot identified as man from Kodiak, Alaska | Peninsula Daily News
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  39. #2119

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  40. #2120
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Gordon

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