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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #961
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    "when the pilot started company orientation on April 22, he had a total of 1,606 flight hours, of which 5 hours were in float-equipped airplanes. "

    Is this normal procedure for hiring new pilots to fly Beavers on floats commercially in Alaska? Do you suppose that the paying passengers realize how little experience their pilot has?
    N1PA
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  2. #962

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    I saw that as well, 5 hours, how many of those in a Beaver? Probably just in some variant of a Cessna.
    Kind of a frightening hiring policy.
    I sure hope there are serious questions about the company management not just in Alaska but down in Nevada as well.
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  3. #963
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I was thinking more of a quicky SES in a J-3 at Jon Brown's.
    N1PA
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  4. #964
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    You would think their insurance would have minimums on time in type.....


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  5. #965
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    Insurance????? We need insurance for this ****????

    That is not even vaguely challenging conditions for a Beaver. Yeah, as Pete says, five hours in a J-3 on floats, and next you're doing a 135 check in a Beaver, and carrying passengers and freight.

    That is scary stuff, right there.

    MTV
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  6. #966
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    Ok guys, take a seat and crack a beer...

    Yup, he got HIRED with only 5 hours of SES, in who knows or cares what.

    There are companies that hire lower time guys, and have a training program to teach them. Metlakatla is not what one would call a challenge, and I bet it was a light load with good weather.

    But consider some facts: Training- the pilot had to do training with an instructor pilot, 5-10 hours; check ride, 2 hours; IOE, 5 hours before the pilot can fly; that would be a minimum. Also take into account that he had been around for 20 days, so took some ride-a-longs. The guy had 1,600 hours in aircraft, so should know how to fly. By the time he was checked out I bet he had over 20 in the beaver.

    Many companies put new pilots in beavers because under normal circumstances they forgive everything but steep turns without flaps down. They start new pilots on simple runs to let them learn and get the feel. The picture shows what appears to be a very EASY day for a beaver pilot!

    Now, what could have gone wrong? The only thing in the picture that catches my attention is what looks to be a larger series of waves to the left of the plane, (look for three parallel lines of breaking wave). Some larger boats will send two sets of wake- bow and engine, with the engine wake being larger. Seems seine boats were out in the harbor, and they can send a huge wake!

    So one thought and explanation would be that the plane touched down, went into a wake causing a rocking motion then stubbed the left toe into a big wake unexpectedly. The right rudder can be accounted for from a crosswind, but if it hit a wake wrong that is bad.

    In that frame of thought- I know multi thousand hour float guys that don't fly salt water, and could have missed seeing a wake. In small chop wakes can hide, and they travel for miles at times.

    Oh but for the grace of god go I.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  7. #967
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Some folks have boating experience before flying floats but others may not. How the boat or float hull can react to wind and waves, including any wakes or long period offset swells, is worth knowing for both. Lots to learn in a short time sadly for the pilot and passenger.

    Gary
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  8. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Some folks have boating experience before flying floats but others may not. How the boat or float hull can react to wind and waves, including any wakes or long period offset swells, is worth knowing for both. Lots to learn in a short time sadly for the pilot and passenger.

    Gary
    Ageed, we all start somewhere, and hope we don't stop learning... new things every day
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  9. #969
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    https://www.adn.com/bush-pilot/artic...dy/2012/09/27/

    I met Rod in 1965 then later as a passenger until he left Afton Coon for others. More: https://www.kfsk.org/2012/10/24/two-...ation-legends/

    What's broken is the oral how-to history of Alaskan flying and shared experience between them and those that are new. Not many are willing to mentor and their experiences are paid for by tough times staying alive so I understand.

    Gary

  10. #970
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I was thinking more of a quicky SES in a J-3 at Jon Brown's.
    Just what I was thinking Pete, I cant imagine you could get him insured? We used to think most lodge pilots had to have 500 hours on floats with 100hrs in TYPE to get any kind of a decent rate ? I remember in mid 80's
    we had a new Kenmore Beaver delivered that because of toooo many
    claims by the owner; He was not on the insurance policy! I was the sole insured to fly that airplane, if memory
    serves me right they wanted exactly double to insure him in it......
    I am shocked this 135 operator could get ANYONE insured in a $ 3/400,000 airplane with a fresh SES, and ZERO experence in type ????
    The 1600 total could have likely been
    around and around airports in a Cherokee.............. What is going on here ????? Hire a pilot with 1000hrs on
    Floats of Alaska time preferably in Beavers and avoid all this......
    This is likely money oriented. The going rate: in Alaska this summer, for experenced Beaver pilots; is $15K per
    month. I bet this guy was hired to save
    money, and likely in the grand a week category..........

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  11. #971

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    Seems like a low time float pilot would only be allowed to haul freight until he built up enough time to allow passengers? Poor gal who got in with him probably had no idea of his lack of experience. Sure sounds like a big lawsuit.
    John
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  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Just what I was thinking Pete, I cant imagine you could get him insured? We used to think most lodge pilots had to have 500 hours on floats with 100hrs in TYPE to get any kind of a decent rate ? I remember in mid 80's
    we had a new Kenmore Beaver delivered that because of toooo many
    claims by the owner; He was not on the insurance policy! I was the sole insured to fly that airplane, if memory
    serves me right they wanted exactly double to insure him in it......
    I am shocked this 135 operator could get ANYONE insured in a $ 3/400,000 airplane with a fresh SES, and ZERO experence in type ????
    The 1600 total could have likely been
    around and around airports in a Cherokee.............. What is going on here ????? Hire a pilot with 1000hrs on
    Floats of Alaska time preferably in Beavers and avoid all this......
    This is likely money oriented. The going rate: in Alaska this summer, for experenced Beaver pilots; is $15K per
    month. I bet this guy was hired to save
    money, and likely in the grand a week category..........

    Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    I think you’re right. There are two things at play here. To your point, SE companies don’t pay as well as they do up north. Never have. The other thing goes back to the first one: no comparable pay so the lions share of the experienced pilots aren’t available.

    I avoid riding with the “big” scheduled commuters at all costs. I’ll take the single pilot operator or the one with a couple of Navajos and real pilots all day long.
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  13. #973

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    If 5 hours time is cause for an accident how did any of us make it to 6?

    Maybe there's more to the story.
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  14. #974
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Most of us didn't start out flying loaded Beavers on floats with innocent passengers.
    N1PA
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  15. #975

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    Most of us were flying less forgiving planes in more challenging places with our families!

    Low hours may be a contributor but if it is? I'd look at the pilot's training area and compare it to landing in a much bigger, much different space. I struggle when I fly into a new place that's a lot bigger than what I'm accustomed to. But I'm a mere mortal.
    Last edited by stewartb; 06-01-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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  16. #976
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    Where the third wheel is located on land planes can develop muscle and mental memory during landing. Nose draggers like to be planted forward to slow and steer and of course tailwheels the opposite. Keeping the bows of boats and floats up can help control direction by reducing forward wetted area and sudden nose drag from the hull. Not sure what experience the pilot may have relied on here.

    Gary
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  17. #977
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    I find it incomprehensible that they had a guy with that little seaplane experience (note I didn’t use the term “time”) flying a Beaver for hire, and carrying passengers.

    Many folks think flying floats is easy, and sometimes it is. The wild card is that every landing and takeoff is an off airport evolution. Yes, even at Lake Hood. There are a lot of ways to screw up on floats, which is why insurance is so high.

    And, a Beaver is a great airplane, but it is one which deserves a thorough checkout by a very experienced Beaver Pilot. I cringe every time I hear someone say “The Beaver flies just like a big Super Cub”.

    MTV
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  18. #978
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/b...max-crash.html


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  19. #979

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    I looked at the photo of the Metlakatla beaver landing and the spray from the floats doesn’t look right to me. It doesn’t seem to be right behind the floats and indicates to me maybe the plane was crabbed at touch down. That could explain the right wing going down and flip? Opinion. What do others think?
    Owned same cub for 26 years!!!

  20. #980

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    There was 10-15mph quartering tailwind.
    He was landing to the west and the wind was from SE.

  21. #981

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    Landing west with SE tailwind would blow spray to other side of beaver. If landing straight ahead left wing should be down and left float touching first. I think beaver touched down crabbed as wings were level. As all float pilots know, you must not touch down with floats crabbed to the direction of the aircraft.
    Owned same cub for 26 years!!!

  22. #982

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    In the NTSB picture it definitely looks like the wind is blowing from right to left.
    Is 10 knot quartering tailwind a handful in a beaver?
    it definitely would hold my attention in the 170.

  23. #983

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Most of us were flying less forgiving planes in more challenging places with our families!
    .
    True, but most of our family and friends knew that we were low-time pilots and at least partially understood the lack of experience that they were signing up for.

    Not sure I’d climb into a floatplane in Southeast with a pilot with such little time on floats. I flew with this operator a couple years ago. If I ever did again, I sure as hell will be asking some questions.

  24. #984
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    I recognize the overall low time on floats, but for experience in-type how does one get Beaver time other than commercially? Honest question - - -

    Edit: I have just a few hours more on floats than to get the rating. No way would I consider holding myself out for hire on floats. But still, how does one go about getting experience in a plane that is almost exclusively used commercially?
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 06-01-2019 at 11:58 PM.
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  25. #985
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    For whatever cause or technique the floats were eventually wetted too far forward...quick excessive drag and maybe a turn/broach like in the video linked earlier. Hold or trim the bow up against the nose down attitude of the effective Beaver flaps as I recall.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 06-02-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  26. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    I recognize the overall low time on floats, but for experience in-type how does one get Beaver time other than commercially? Honest question - - -

    Edit: I have just a few hours more on floats than to get the rating. No way would I consider holding myself out for hire on floats. But still, how does one go about getting experience in a plane that is almost exclusively used commercially?
    I didn't intend to comply that a commercial operator needs tons of Beaver "time". Read my post. It's EXPERIENCE that really counts, plus a thorough and intensive check out in the Beaver. This guy had no EXPERIENCE in seaplanes, apparently. Even flying Cubs on floats will teach you a lot about winds, waves, wakes, etc, etc. You learn that stuff FIRST, then when you get checked out in the Beaver, you have a good basis of EXPERIENCE upon which to base your checkout experience.

    And then, frankly, it'd be a good idea to have that pilot work freight runs first, though that's not always possible.

    But, as I pointed out, there is a world of ways to get in trouble in a seaplane.

    Quartering tailwinds: I once landed with one during an annual checkride. The check airman questioned why I had done so. My response was because I was well aware of the wind, and because of obstacles, landing that direction made more sense, given the conditions. And, I compensated for it just fine.

    So, yes, a quartering tailwind isn't a great thing, but with the knowledge and skills from experience on floats, it shouldn't be a big deal. As with most things in off airport flying, it depends......

    All deHavilland Canada airplanes glide nose down. Raise the nose, and you'll be behind the power curve really quick and sinking like a stone. So, on approach to land in a float equipped Beaver, you have to make a VERY significant rotation of the nose in the flare to prevent touching too far forward on the floats, which Gary has pointed out in this case. And, if the plane is light and forward CG, which may well have been the case here, a shot of power during the flare will help that rotation and get the toes of the floats up prior to touch. Which does not appear to have been the case here. The Beaver I flew most was on amphibious floats, so was a very forward CG airplane, and this characteristic could really get your attention. Shouldn't be so bad on a straight float airplane, but still pronounced.

    MTV
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  27. #987
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    ...learn that stuff FIRST, then when you get checked out in the Beaver...
    I did read it. Time and experience in the environment, not just the airplane type. Of course, that makes good sense. In that vein, wheel off-airport experience would be of some benefit also. Agreed that the operational factors and the airplane specifics are somewhat separate parts of the whole.
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  28. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKClimber View Post
    There was 10-15mph quartering tailwind.
    The big jets have a 10 knot tail wind limit for both take off and landing. 10-15 mph tailwind in a big float plane with a student pilot (yes student) at the controls shows a lack of judgement on the pilot's part as well as the pilot's employer.
    N1PA
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  29. #989
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    On the average I give 10 hours of instruction to my seaplane rating clients and some go as high as 14 hours if they are not as safe as I think they should be. And I sweat out every one of their check-rides thinking I missed something.

  30. #990
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Taquan's preferred career opportunities for those interested: https://taquanair.com/careers/ They may need to raise the bar some.

    Gary
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  31. #991

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    It is not so much the need to raise the bar, they need to at least try to get close to their bar, Maybe I am wrong but 5 hours of seaplane experience does not seem to be real close to 500 Hrs.
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  32. #992

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    And then after 10 or more hours for sea rating they get to start learning all the other nuances on floats, wind, waves, current, and more.
    One does not know much until many hours/years later. On the water every one is different with all the variables.
    Then try out a Widgeon and it shows you not much learned on floats, new learning curve every operation.
    John
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  33. #993

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    My time on water was in a Lake on a lake, I know I can't even consider myself able in a J3 on floats. But the guy with the 5hrs had to have a dream he could do it.
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  34. #994

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    I knew Ron [the pilot i question] a few years ago while he was building time hauling skydivers at our local drop zone in a 182. He had come up to the Finger Lakes area for the summer and left his family behind in Harrisburg while he got that done. Clearly, he had a goal in mind, a desire to pursue a career change, and willingness to work hard and make sacrifices to make that happen.

    With a grand total of 5.5 hours of seaplane experience acquired while getting a rating in a J-3 and zero time in a DHC-2, I can't discuss the conditions involved in the accident with any authority. I will say that my career was started 44 years ago by a guy named Veryl Grimm that was willing to take a chance by turning a 19 year old kid loose to cropdust in a 450 Stearman. We all had to start somewhere when we knew very little about what we were doing. In my case, luck had much more to do with success than skill.
    Last edited by Waldo M; 06-04-2019 at 05:50 AM.
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  35. #995
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldo M View Post
    ......that was willing to take a chance by turning a 19 year old kid loose to cropdust in a 450 Stearman. We all had to start somewhere when we knew very little about what we were doing. In my case, luck had much more to do with success than skill.
    When one is 19 years old his reflexes are a lot sharper than a like experienced 50 plus year old. When a 19 year old has fortunate luck a 50+ year old's luck is more likely to be unfortunate under the same circumstances. Not in all cases, but we old duffers aren't as sharp as we used to be in spite of thinking that we are. I too used to be a youngster who was given many chances. That was part of my education which when I think back upon know that youth and luck kept me going. When one is older those youthful experiences have become learned experiences. In this accident it appears that there was a missing gap between youth and senior citizen.
    N1PA
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  36. #996

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    I agree, skywagon, except that I am not deluded into thinking my reaction time is what it was when I was 19. Hopefully, the experience we acquired in our careers helps us avoid situations where we need those lightning fast reactions.
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  37. #997

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    I do not necessarily call it youthful luck, there are those of us that have skill bred into us. It is a "can do" ability that not all have or ever had. There are plenty of young ones that can not and never will be able to do what many of us elders have done and can still do. And yes I am aware and concerned when I think of test flights in a plane I designed and am building when I expect I will be 70 when it first flies. I am not who I was in my 20s and 30s. I still have abilities beyond many and there are those that trump me easily.
    To this day I pick and chose who I ride with and there are very few young ones I will chance myself with.
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  38. #998
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Waldo, I'm not a wordsmith so my message may have been slightly misunderstood. One does not necessarily think nor recognize what the level of his reaction times may be as time marches on. The level of experiences gained over time diffuses the need for the recognition.

    I have observed over many years that there have been many pilots who have been very highly qualified "airshow" pilots for many years. Most of them started in these endeavors at a young age and did very well. They continued to do well until one day they did not. The razor became dull and they went west before their time. If you were to think back, I'm certain that you could come up with many of those names. Bevo Howard for one, in his Bucker.
    N1PA

  39. #999
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    I have helped a couple of people recently find good Super Cubs. Got a call on Friday from one who ground looped it on his trip back with it. On Sunday I found out another one ended up on it's nose. These were both very nice, high end Super Cubs. I feel for both of them. The airplanes can be fixed but something to be aware of. Training and time in type go a long way to getting comfortable and familarity.
    Steve Pierce

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  40. #1000

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have helped a couple of people recently find good Super Cubs. Got a call on Friday from one who ground looped it on his trip back with it. On Sunday I found out another one ended up on it's nose. These were both very nice, high end Super Cubs. I feel for both of them. The airplanes can be fixed but something to be aware of. Training and time in type go a long way to getting comfortable and familarity.
    I hear a favorite plane of mine that went your way last spring went “over easy”

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