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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2601
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Wow! Tough situation, but sounds like the crew made good decisions. Those are tough old machines, so hopefully will fly again soon. In any case, nobody hurt, and a beautiful job landing straight down the runway.

    That could have been really messy…..

    MTV
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  2. #2602
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  3. #2603
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    True Airmenship. Watch the replay video> http://www.kathrynsreport.com

    Single engine rate of climb minimal w/load? Plus blue line speed concerns.

    Gary

  4. #2604
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Why couldn't this aircraft even maintain altitude with one engine shut down and the prop feathered? A stock DC-3 at max gross, according to some sources, will make 200 fpm clean on one engine. Shouldn't the C-117D at max gross be at least as good as the DC-3?

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lying-the-dc-3

  5. #2605
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    "trying to get a good rate of climb" mentioned prior to Merrill transition vs return to ANC. Whatever, they did good on that narrow 4000 x 100 ft runway.

    Gary
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  6. #2606

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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Why couldn't this aircraft even maintain altitude with one engine shut down and the prop feathered? A stock DC-3 at max gross, according to some sources, will make 200 fpm clean on one engine. Shouldn't the C-117D at max gross be at least as good as the DC-3?

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lying-the-dc-3
    And negative density altitude to boot. Either that good engine wasn’t producing full power, or I’d say they need to check their load, which I’m sure will be investigated.

  7. #2607
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKjurnees View Post
    And negative density altitude to boot. Either that good engine wasn’t producing full power, or I’d say they need to check their load, which I’m sure will be investigated.

    Rumor is they had trouble feathering the inop engine’s prop. Looks like they took out some treetops and came damned close to some tied down airplanes. Amazing!

    youtube.com/watch?v=y6fireBKBSA
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  8. #2608
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Rumor is they had trouble feathering the inop engine’s prop. Looks like they took out some treetops and came damned close to some tied down airplanes. Amazing!
    I'm no DC-3 expert but it looks feathered when back on the gear but it doesn't look feathered in the video frame that shows initial right wing contact. Perhaps someone familiar with that prop could comment - is it possible that air loads would prevent feather but it would feather when stopped on the ground? Video appears to show right feathered but left not feathered when raised back on the gear.

    That was so close to going horribly wrong. Glad they had some luck to go with the skill.

  9. #2609
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Being an expert in nothing DC-3, and never having flown one, I have a couple of observations after seeing and listening to the videos linked:

    1: Things went from bad to worse, hence the change to a MAYDAY and landing at Merrill from we have an engine failure and need to return
    2: As calm as the transmissions started with the failed engine, and request return in a left turn only, those guys had things under control, and were on top of their game
    3: It appears the difference between a plume of fire and a recoverable aircraft was a fine line, and the guys working the problem did one HELL of a job to make it look easy!
    4: impressive piloting to set it down fairly smooth, and keep it strait on the runway with almost zero normal controls. I wish I was that good

    I wonder how long it took for their knees to stop shaking, or start shaking after that. Holy cow, what a job.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  10. #2610
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    Based on everything I’ve seen over the last day I don’t think they could maintain altitude. Took the trees off, and the once clip coming over the cub at Merrill was damn close. There’s a lucky cub owner and some damn fine freight pilots.

    I’d bet a lesser crew would have been in the streets.


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  11. #2611

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    I used to fly dc-3s for a living and have something like 1400 hours in them. I can tell you that they will usually maintain altitude on one engine just fine but not always. In the eight, yes eight, different in-flight shutdowns I had, I had at least 2 where maintaining altitude was less than expected. One was in ice and as we got heavier and poorer aerodynamics, we had to keep adding power to maintain altitude. The other I remember was flying, I think, from anchorage to king salmon. We blew a cylinder off with so much force, it split the cowling. The cowling then proceeded to move forward into the prop with all sorts of drag. We could not maintain altitude and we were mostly empty at the time. Eventually, we got to a point where we were able to stop descent and flew on in to king salmon. Anyway, yeah, most of the time they fly fine on one, but not always.

    Wayne
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  12. #2612
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    With wings as wide as the runway there's an impressive skill displayed

    Gary
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  13. #2613

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    Looks like they got into ground effect long before the threshold, and maybe that kept them up. This epitomizes fly it all the way to the ground, and then some.


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  14. #2614
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Cheated death again!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  15. #2615
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    ....That was so close to going horribly wrong. Glad they had some luck to go with the skill.
    Yes.
    The fatality crash of the Collings Foundation B17 comes to mind.
    Good job, pilots!
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  16. #2616
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    I thought this was fake, so I moved on. Then I saw it again, and from a somewhat more “reputable” source.
    If it’s real, I would prefer it to be fake.

    https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/270409


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  17. #2617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I thought this was fake, so I moved on. Then I saw it again, and from a somewhat more “reputable” source.
    If it’s real, I would prefer it to be fake.

    https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/270409
    Look at it frame by frame. The airplane is strutless, meaning all the wing loads are carried in the center section. Also it is an agriculture dispersal plane and they carry some really strong and corrosive chemicals. I suspect the center section had been eaten away by the chemicals. Perhaps the critical area is in a hidden location? One needs to pay close attention to cleanliness and structural integrity in these machines. Who knows how conscientious the operators in Brazil may be?

    Remember when the wing came off a Chalks airline Mallard in Miami? Corrosion in a crack in the spar.
    N1PA
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  18. #2618
    G44's Avatar
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    Wow, pilot survived! Fantastic!

  19. #2619
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Look at it frame by frame. The airplane is strutless, meaning all the wing loads are carried in the center section. Also it is an agriculture dispersal plane and they carry some really strong and corrosive chemicals. I suspect the center section had been eaten away by the chemicals. Perhaps the critical area is in a hidden location? One needs to pay close attention to cleanliness and structural integrity in these machines. Who knows how conscientious the operators in Brazil may be?

    Remember when the wing came off a Chalks airline Mallard in Miami? Corrosion in a crack in the spar.
    I was told that a certain winglet mod on Air Tractors shortens the life limit on the wings. This plane has winglets. Maybe combined effects?

    MTV

  20. #2620

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post

    Remember when the wing came off a Chalks airline Mallard in Miami? Corrosion in a crack in the spar.
    Plus the fact that there were several illegal spar repairs on that plane, it was a miracle it actually flew around like that.

  21. #2621
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Hooooo, Boy……..a couple of lucky guys….. https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/...251877903.html

    Those Guard helicopter pilots earn their keep.

    MTV
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  22. #2622
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    https://www.kyuk.org/public-safety/2...e-same-problem

    Some wiring/fuel line issues involved in the recent Bethel C-207 fire. Luck was along with the pilot and crew.

    Gary
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  23. #2623
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    Basic practices not followed: no mechanical anchoring installed between the bundle and the fuel line. Simply install an adel clamp on each and then bolt both clamps together. If you are in a hurry, tie the bundle to the fuel line with Koro Seal lacing and the knot between them will hold them apart. Either way it stops the rubbing motion between the bundle and the tube that occurs with vibration.

    And then no one looked at it during inspections?

    Making my profession look bad.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  24. #2624
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Back to the Rudder Post issue - update from NTSB.

    https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AIR2202.pdf


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  25. #2625
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Rudder post: Inspect the affected area for external and internal corrosion or signs of stress before complete replacement? These things tend to snowball then roll downhill and grow quickly.

    Gary

  26. #2626
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    NTSB has no mention of possible gust lock or non-gust lock tiedown practices.

    …just sayin, and wonderin…….
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  27. #2627
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Gust locks - yes if used. Also check rudder deflection meets TCDS limits.

    Gary
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  28. #2628
    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Instead of rudder replacement, why not internally sleeve the rudder post with tube of 4130 down past the hinge point. I did this on my 180 cub during rebuild. Easy to do.
    Ed
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  29. #2629
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Here's two NTSB investigation Dockets re the rudder failures above. Have a look at the pictures that show the damaged areas and metal analysis. Download the "View" files and read. The Laboratory Factual Reports indicate "The fatigue originated from corrosion pits on the exterior surface---." "Additionally, rudders A, B and C had faceted features and surface roughness consistent with being grit blasted...consistent with olivine abrasive blasting media." They also noted the angular features (some scratches) would also tend to locally increase the stress in the rudder post. They discounted the effect of propeller blade frequency as a source of failure.

    Edit: Also didn't really bad the top beacons installed on some. Read the reports and pop some corn. This isn't over.

    https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=101415
    https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=103552

    Gary


    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 01-28-2022 at 03:05 PM.
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  30. #2630
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Here's a weird one. Pilot got lucky but it's hard to believe the crashed plane was that difficult to find. Maybe not Sat compatible ELT: https://dailydispatch.dps.alaska.gov...ber=AK22012594

    Gary
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  31. #2631

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    Don’t know for sure, but if it was up near Lynx peak, the CAP may not have been able to get near it due to low clouds and high winds. That area is pretty jagged as far as peaks go and we had some sporty winds down here for a few days. And I do believe it had a 121.5, otherwise they’d be able to ID the aircraft owner based on the coded 406 transmission.

    Kudos to the pilot IMO for getting himself taken care of, and kudos for the searchers for keeping it up.


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  32. #2632
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Now we'd like to know how the rescue vehicle got there while others couldn't

    Gary
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  33. #2633

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    I’d guess he was gone long before they started looking for the plane. Also, triangulating a signal would likely require better weather above the mountains than your buddy coming straight up the drainage under the clouds.


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  34. #2634
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Should have shut off the ELT upon departing. Might have prevented some of the cost and possible collateral damage

    Gary
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  35. #2635

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    Oops, darn it...

    Well, while that’s true, who knows what was going on in their heads at the time.

    On the other side, I’d bet if during that 4 days, someone would have said something on social media about a 121 ELT going off in the Talkeetnas, they could have figured it out pretty quick and either went straight to it, or lowered the priority.

    And on that note, why would you not let the community know? A plane had an ELT going off for 4 days in the mountains, pretty close to Palmer/Wasilla. Most people know lots of other pilots here and everyone could have checked on each other, and maybe found someone that was missing. That would at least give a bunch of info to narrow or expedite the search.

    I’m just thinking out loud.


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  36. #2636
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Yes. Another Taylorcraft for recovery-restoration. The pilot and help gots some 'splainin' to do

    Edit: More public news> https://radiokenai.com/unsecured-air...s-on-thursday/

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 02-13-2022 at 01:32 AM.

  37. #2637
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdH View Post
    Well, while that’s true, who knows what was going on in their heads at the time.

    On the other side, I’d bet if during that 4 days, someone would have said something on social media about a 121 ELT going off in the Talkeetnas, they could have figured it out pretty quick and either went straight to it, or lowered the priority.

    And on that note, why would you not let the community know? A plane had an ELT going off for 4 days in the mountains, pretty close to Palmer/Wasilla. Most people know lots of other pilots here and everyone could have checked on each other, and maybe found someone that was missing. That would at least give a bunch of info to narrow or expedite the search.

    I’m just thinking out loud.


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    I will keep my comments about the Alaska CAP to a minimum, but for years they and the 'rescue' center have been very unforthcoming about missing aircraft. To make it worse, they can not seem to find a missing plane to save their soul.

    All procedure and military like policy, zero common sense and interest in situation reality.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  38. #2638
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Yes. Another Taylorcraft for recovery-restoration. The pilot and help gots some 'splainin' to do

    Edit: More public news> https://radiokenai.com/unsecured-air...s-on-thursday/

    Gary
    Under the circumstances the ELT was likely the last thing on his mind. And if S&R didn't mention to the public they were looking for an airplane's ELT which was beeping for 4 days, that's on them. The pilot would have heard and remembered he hadn't checked his ELT. The airplane is from Palmer, were any inquiries made there by S&R for a missing airplane?

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    N1PA

  39. #2639
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  40. #2640
    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    I will keep my comments about the Alaska CAP to a minimum, but for years they and the 'rescue' center have been very unforthcoming about missing aircraft. To make it worse, they can not seem to find a missing plane to save their soul.

    All procedure and military like policy, zero common sense and interest in situation reality.
    I agree, if we had waited for RCC to get off their duff and actually come get my friend he would be dead. We found him, called RCC and they said 30 minutes, after 3 hours we hauled him into town. We waited because we thought a stretcher, helicopter straight to the hospital was worth the 30 minute wait, it was worth an hour wait but after 3 hours we hauled him into town and drove him to the hospital. That was many years ago, maybe things have changed but I seriously doubt it. They should have been honest with us and told us how long its going to take, that is what really upset everyone involved.

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