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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2241
    irishfield's Avatar
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    Head down in a glass cockpit.. how do you not see a metro?? Also why we frown on straight in finals when VFR in Canada. Join the circuit and take a number like everyone else..
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  2. #2242

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    Where I work we fly into Centennial a lot. We no longer are supposed to call the field in site and get switched over to visual approach. There is a lot of piston and student traffic there. Approach control and tower do a miserable job in separating traffic. Its expected to have west side traffic overshoot their centerline. We have had a least a dozen hazard reports written for this very item at APA.
    APA and MGE are two places to be alert. Controllers have a tough job. I get that but Id rather be n the middle of push at LAX or DC metro area than Denver or Atlanta.
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  3. #2243
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    Quote Originally Posted by G280Driver View Post
    Where I work we fly into Centennial a lot. We no longer are supposed to call the field in site and get switched over to visual approach.
    I was wondering about that. So fly an instrument approach all the way in? If that is the case, how do they allow VFR traffic so close?

  4. #2244

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    Thats why were told to stay on the approach, for separation. It hoses everyone in the pattern. But if I wanna keep a pay check coming thats what were told to do. To be honest its hard to stay on the approach when you have the field 20 miles out. I haven’t listened to the tapes but have been a part of this exact set up. My situation coming to Denver from Texas. VFR day, get pulled off arrival early with North heading that puts us on left down wind. Call the field in site. At about midfield get visual to 17L join final over North side of the reservoir. Do as told. Its an RNAV to 17L. Leave it set up and fly it. Get on final listening to other traffic and a cessna overshoots 17R. TCAS starts having a fit because the traffic is between me and my runway. They finally start correcting but with west winds 1000 foot agl the cessna is slow in getting out of the way. Our final speed 135ish kts depending on load but a good closure rate. TCAS finally shuts up after side stepping some. When I opened door to let PAX out he asked what that was all about. “Its a typical day in Denver”. We always have cockpit door open so they hear everything the plane screams at ya.
    Last edited by G280Driver; 05-15-2021 at 10:03 PM.
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  5. #2245

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishfield View Post
    Head down in a glass cockpit.. how do you not see a metro?? Also why we frown on straight in finals when VFR in Canada. Join the circuit and take a number like everyone else..
    From the perspective of flying my Cub, I agree completely. But when I was working, trying to fly a pattern at the recommended flap maneuvering speed of 160 knots in a pattern with several light aircraft is interesting to say the least. You’re either overtaking people or having to widen out so far people are cutting inside your pattern. Our policy was like G280driver’s, stay IFR and fly the approach. This wasn’t to beat the system or cut the line, it was just deemed to be the least risky way to fly into uncontrolled fields. And in Canada, many times I’ve been told by radio to join the final. And KAPA is a controlled field, so just joining the pattern isn’t an option.
    Last edited by mam90; 05-16-2021 at 07:18 AM.

  6. #2246
    mvivion's Avatar
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    But, why was the Cirrus at a reported 160 mph ON BASE?

    MTV
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  7. #2247

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    It’s possible the Cirrus was flying 160kts. But its also possible the wind could have been a factor in that number. ATC speed is ground speed. Winds on the ground in the Denver area can be light and variable but at 1000 agl 40kts. I’ve see it personally. May last flight I had a tailwind all the way down final at less than 100 foot it switched to a quartering head wind, 120 degree change with a velocity change.

  8. #2248

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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    From the perspective of flying my Cub, I agree completely. But when I was working, trying to fly a pattern at the recommended flap maneuvering speed of 160 knots in a pattern with several light aircraft is interesting to say the least. You’re either overtaking people or having to widen out so far people are cutting inside your pattern. Our policy was like G280driver’s, stay IFR and fly the approach. This wasn’t to beat the system or cut the line, it was just deemed to be the least risky way to fly into uncontrolled fields. And in Canada, many times I’ve been told by radio to join the final. And KAPA is a controlled field, so just joining the pattern isn’t an option.
    Block Island in MA has a mix of commercial and light aircraft without a tower and gets interesting on busy summer days.

    I was renting out of KAPA and it’s a very busy airport. Last biannual we were planning on flying into KAPA, but sat in holding pattern for a long time then decided to go elsewhere.
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  9. #2249

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    I have no insight or opinion on this accident. I’m just pointing out first that closely spaced parallel runway operations are, in my opinion, highly questionable. Everyone has to be on their toes. Watching an airplane that’s closing on you At a right angle on base to a closely spaced parallel, you have to trust that he won’t overshoot final- at all. Second, it’s a challenge to mix high performance aircraft with light aircraft at an uncontrolled field- controllers struggle to do it at controlled fields at times. I’ve done go-arounds, 360’s on downwind and left the area to give things a chance to quiet down and never complained to the other aircraft. I ALWAYS thanked pilots who would say they’d widen out or extend or circle around and get behind us in the pattern. It’s just not correct to assume that someone’s trying to “cut the line” when they choose to fly an instrument approach and stay in radar contact as long as possible.
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  10. #2250
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G280Driver View Post
    It’s possible the Cirrus was flying 160kts. But its also possible the wind could have been a factor in that number. ATC speed is ground speed. Winds on the ground in the Denver area can be light and variable but at 1000 agl 40kts. I’ve see it personally. May last flight I had a tailwind all the way down final at less than 100 foot it switched to a quartering head wind, 120 degree change with a velocity change.
    Okay, I’ll bite, If he had a 40 kit tailwind, why was he at an AIRspeed of 120 on BASE? This is a light GA airplane, not a jet, for cryin out loud. That is a ridiculous speed on close in base.

    The problem is, we’re not teaching people to fly in many cases these days.

    MTV
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  11. #2251
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    The problem is, we’re not teaching people to fly in many cases these days.

    MTV
    These are the people who are doing the instructing these days. Then we give them a full glass panel and teach them about numbers. The bulk of the cockpit time is spent staring at their gadgets.

    When someone says "he/she has you in sight" never ever believe nor depend on him/her.
    N1PA
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  12. #2252
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    These are the people who are doing the instructing these days. Then we give them a full glass panel and teach them about numbers. The bulk of the cockpit time is spent staring at their gadgets.

    When someone says "he/she has you in sight" never ever believe nor depend on him/her.
    Hear it almost every day at work....ATC “Do you have traffic in sight?” Pilot “Not in sight but I got them on TCAS/the screen/ADS-B/Fish finder.” Not just private or student pilots saying this either. Bugs the hell outta me when other pilots reply to ATC’s query with that answer. If it’s not visible with your eyeballs.........it’s not in sight. Even then, is it really the one your supposed to acknowledge.

  13. #2253
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Okay, I’ll bite, If he had a 40 kit tailwind, why was he at an AIRspeed of 120 on BASE? This is a light GA airplane, not a jet, for cryin out loud. That is a ridiculous speed on close in base.

    The problem is, we’re not teaching people to fly in many cases these days.

    MTV
    Because Cirrus are supposed to be FAST

    Obviously I am joking…. Kinda mostly

  14. #2254

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    Again not sticking up for the Cirrus pilot, and maybe my primary instructor was a little over the top. But he drilled into me to be able to run full cruise speed until a point which you had to have a feel for. At that point pull carb heat, chop the power and cross the numbers on speed at 50 foot. Left traffic, right traffic, straight in. Use flaps, slip, anything you wanted except power. He made a game out of it. But it paid dividends later when I was flying 182 daily into bigger airports. Even flying cruise speed down an ILS it wasn’t uncommon to get pulled off the approach so something faster (airline) could go by.
    Like any accident its an accumulation of little things till they get big. Obviously the Cirrus over shot and speed could have been a contributing factor, the previous controller could have told him to keep the speed up. If the Cirrus had started to correct being a low wing would have been a visibility challenge. I agree there is too much time fiddling with wiz bang stuff in a terminal area. I dont have adsb in my bug smasher for several reasons one of which is no desire to fly it in congested areas. Im just glad no one was hurt and hopefully it will force some change with ATC in that specific area.
    Last edited by G280Driver; 05-16-2021 at 02:46 PM.

  15. #2255
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G280Driver View Post
    Obviously the Cirrus over shot and speed could have been a contributing factor, the previous controller could have told him to keep the speed up. If the Cirrus had started to correct being a low wing would have been a visibility challenge.
    ATC does not fly the airplane, and when was the last time you heard a controller tell you to keep your speed up on base?

    The Cirrus pilot not only overshot HIS final approach course, he overshot the safety area between the runways, AND he flew through the final approach course for the parallel runway. That’s just gross incompetence. Would get you busted on any practical test, checkride or flight review, for heavens sake.

    There is simply no excuse for this kind of behavior. One of the problems we’re seeing locally, or at least we hear about, is the “mix” of jet and “little airplanes”. Every time something like this happens, all us “little airplane pilots” get another black eye. It’s in our best interest to condemn this kind of stuff, and demand better of our peers.

    That starts with flight instructors.

    MTV
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  16. #2256

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    I will agree with Mike. I don’t know why everyone is making excuses for the Cirrus pilot. He’s between two 172’s so no need to keep the speed up, plus you don’t hear that on the tower tape. There is a lot of responsibility placed on us as pilots, especially when around other traffic, so we need to step up, put our big boy pants on and be responsible. He’s on a parallel runway, been there before, supposedly has traffic in sight, yet flys through two runway center lines. Take your pick; head down, incompetent, distracted. In VFR if you tell the tower you have the traffic in sight, they believe you, make sure you do, images on screens don’t count.
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  17. #2257
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I still use "No Joy" and "Visual." It is effective and concise communication. That is why the military uses it. Beats, "I am looking." What else would you be doing? ATC knows what it means. It is how I was trained. Works for me.

    The controller called out traffic on two aircraft for the Cirrus. His response was not clear as whether he saw both of them. The best answer in my plane would have been, Tallyho Cessna, No Joy Metroliner. One short burst that clears it up.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  18. #2258
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    What is the experience of the Cirrus pilot and his time in it and total time. Time in last 30 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by robertc View Post
    I will agree with Mike. I don’t know why everyone is making excuses for the Cirrus pilot. He’s between two 172’s so no need to keep the speed up, plus you don’t hear that on the tower tape. There is a lot of responsibility placed on us as pilots, especially when around other traffic, so we need to step up, put our big boy pants on and be responsible. He’s on a parallel runway, been there before, supposedly has traffic in sight, yet flys through two runway center lines. Take your pick; head down, incompetent, distracted. In VFR if you tell the tower you have the traffic in sight, they believe you, make sure you do, images on screens don’t count.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  19. #2259
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Now if only we had an Automatic Dependent Surveillance–Broadcast type system these accidents wouldn’t happen!


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  20. #2260

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    Maybe its where I fly. But I have been told, and hear, keep your speed up till faf or 5 mile final, or closer quite a lot. 230 kts in the pattern, 200 till 1 mile final. Mixing jet traffic with piston traffic is always going to be challenging. I still enjoy flying little planes and that possibly helps me.
    Will be interesting to see what the NTSB report says. Something needs to change at APA specifically, this is a known problem there.
    I get the remark about adsb. I don’t like it especially in the airport environment. Eyes need to be outside.
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  21. #2261
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    Oops, darn it...

    We won’t get to see it but I’d pay to see the recorded data off the (likely) G1000 panel on the Cirrus. Location, speed, bank angle, et al is all there in the data card for review.
    My guess based on his ADSB track out and in, his excessive speed put him in a pretty good bank angle while overshooting the turn to final. If so likely the right wing sliced open the metro like a sardine can, although I haven’t noticed an missing wingtip in the crash photos.
    The ADSB points are quite spaced out but the intersect appears to be 50-70 degrees.

    Edit : After looking again at more images I don’t believe it was a wing that hit the Metro. Both look quite intact. Left main gear doesn’t look affected so that leaves prop, nose gear and right main as the likely contact. But, my point in looking at this is while the pilot may have seen the metro at the last second and leveled/pulled up... there is a also high probability that he never saw it in time to roll out of a bank angle that would have been steep enough to make final for either Runway. Sooo... where was he going? It’s a gross error as others have stated.


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    Last edited by Farmboy; 05-17-2021 at 06:55 AM.

  22. #2262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I still use "No Joy" and "Visual." It is effective and concise communication. That is why the military uses it........ The best answer in my plane would have been, Tallyho Cessna, No Joy Metroliner. One short burst that clears it up.
    Tallyho, visual, & no joy sound sporty, but I'm not sure that the FAR/AIM lists those as appropriate responses for civilian flying.
    "Traffic in sight" & "no contact" however are listed in this glossary.

    Pilot Controller Glossary (effective 4/03/2014) (faa.gov)
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  23. #2263
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    I am well aware of the AIM. May be "sporty" to you but it works. The AIM is a guideline. As I said, ATC knows what it means. Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the blind obedience of fools. It pisses me off to hear, "I am looking." Is that in the AIM?


    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Tallyho, visual, & no joy sound sporty, but I'm not sure that the FAR/AIM lists those as appropriate responses for civilian flying.
    "Traffic in sight" & "no contact" however are listed in this glossary.

    Pilot Controller Glossary (effective 4/03/2014) (faa.gov)
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  24. #2264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the blind obedience of fools.
    Lol!! I used to say the same thing (but saltier) when I still wore stripes!

    Web
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  25. #2265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    We won’t get to see it but I’d pay to see the recorded data off the (likely) G1000 panel on the Cirrus. Location, speed, bank angle, et al is all there in the data card for review.
    My guess based on his ADSB track out and in, his excessive speed put him in a pretty good bank angle while overshooting the turn to final. If so likely the right wing sliced open the metro like a sardine can, although I haven’t noticed an missing wingtip in the crash photos.
    The ADSB points are quite spaced out but the intersect appears to be 50-70 degrees.

    Edit : After looking again at more images I don’t believe it was a wing that hit the Metro. Both look quite intact. Left main gear doesn’t look affected so that leaves prop, nose gear and right main as the likely contact. But, my point in looking at this is while the pilot may have seen the metro at the last second and leveled/pulled up... there is a also high probability that he never saw it in time to roll out of a bank angle that would have been steep enough to make final for either Runway. Sooo... where was he going? It’s a gross error as others have stated.


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    Or, the Cirrus pilot never even noticed the WRONG runway, was still plowing along on base, AND never saw the Tube.

    based on the damage, he sure wasn’t in a significant bank angle. I’m betting he didnt even know where the airport was.

    Good grief!

    MTV
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  26. #2266

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Tallyho, visual, & no joy sound sporty, but I'm not sure that the FAR/AIM lists those as appropriate responses for civilian flying.
    "Traffic in sight" & "no contact" however are listed in this glossary.

    Pilot Controller Glossary (effective 4/03/2014) (faa.gov)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I am well aware of the AIM. May be "sporty" to you but it works. The AIM is a guideline. As I said, ATC knows what it means. Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the blind obedience of fools. It pisses me off to hear, "I am looking." Is that in the AIM?
    I will say that as a civilian pilot with absolutely zero military experience, the only time I've heard "no joy" is in Top Gun when Maverick chased Jester below the hard deck. I mean, I can figure out what it means, but again, as a civilian pilot, I appreciate clear language. Just my experience, but hearing "I'm looking" tells me that they don't have me in sight yet and that I'd better be cautious until the other pilot verifies that they have me in sight.
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  27. #2267
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    I guess to some “tally ho” and “no joy” works, maybe sounds cool..........brings back memories of a current or former time. Despite not knowing the origins of the phrase (due to being a civilian pilot) I guess we all know what it means. But one has to be wound up pretty tight if “I’m looking”, “still looking” is not concise enough. I’m wound tight but I could care less what anyone says as long as they say something.......ok...as long as it’s not “Yeah, I’m still looking for the traffic on base over Muldoon ah ah ah yeah I think I gottem......say again their position again tower?”. Maybe a “not in sight” maybe even a “no joy”........and a “Thar she blows!” once seen.

    Seriously after looking at the damage on that San Antonio Sewer Tube Metroliner, that is a lucky guy. I flew Metros for PenAir a couple a decades ago and developed a mostly hate but kinda love relationship with that plane. One tough bird.

  28. #2268
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Regardless of who is at fault, this picture clearly shows where the primary structure is located in the fuselage, below and including the floor. Without knowing the dimensions of either plane it appears that perhaps the main gear of the Cirrus sliced the fuselage with the wing tip hitting the fin. If the Cirrus had been just two feet lower then ???????????????
    This pilot is one very lucky fella!

    N1PA
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  29. #2269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I am well aware of the AIM. May be "sporty" to you but it works. The AIM is a guideline. As I said, ATC knows what it means. Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the blind obedience of fools. It pisses me off to hear, "I am looking." Is that in the AIM?
    IMHO radio phraseology should be clear to everyone, not just controllers.
    We (used to) have some RV formation guys --maybe ex-military, maybe not-- around here,
    they liked making "two mile initial" and "360 overhead break" calls.
    They knew what they were talking about, but a lot of other pilots didn't--
    including me back about 20 or 25 years ago.

    FWIW "tallyho" seems more like something you should say at a fox hunt, not in an airplane.
    But to each their own.

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  30. #2270

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    If the Cirrus pilot wasn’t looking out the window for traffic then why didn’t he see the traffic on the avionics?

    I have flown with a few owners of high performance singles here around Denver and very different way of flying with focus on the avionics rather than looking outside even in VFR conditions all the way to final.

    I would assume the traffic was being displayed.

  31. #2271
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavePA11 View Post
    If the Cirrus pilot wasn’t looking out the window for traffic then why didn’t he see the traffic on the avionics?

    I have flown with a few owners of high performance singles here around Denver and very different way of flying with focus on the avionics rather than looking outside even in VFR conditions all the way to final.

    I would assume the traffic was being displayed.
    Exactly, I've been bellyaching about pilots paying more attention to their instruments than looking out the window for more than half a century. It seems the more gadgets in the panel, the less they look out the window. I'll not bore you with numerous personal observations.
    N1PA
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  32. #2272
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I flew Metro's 41 years ago. That picture had me digging in my basement looking for my manuals. Obviously those elev. cable runs are below the main deck but I was curious just exactly where they run. Tough airplane for sure. I worked for Air Midwest out of Wichita, we called the Metro the Kansas Concorde. Alcohol water injection and JATO in the tail.....woohoo.

  33. #2273
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    If the Cirrus pilot wasn't looking out the window (and maybe he was), why didn't he see the traffic on his avionics????

    Well, maybe he was staring at his iPad on his lap, and didn't see the tiny little icon that represented the Metro. Maybe he WAS looking out the window, trying to figure out where "His" runway was, ie: Looking the opposite direction of the approaching Metro.

    Operating to parallel runways is all about discipline.....each pilot has to draw an imaginary line, and determine that they will not cross that line under any circumstances.

    Of course, said pilot also needs to know how to SAFELY turn his or her airplane, so as to avoid LOC on the base to final turn, which is not uncommon.

    But, as evidenced by that photo that Pete posted, that Cirrus driver wasn't in a bank when he hit the Metro. He may have simply been lost.....

    MTV
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  34. #2274

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    Latest “speculation” is that because of his perfect base to final arch in a shallow bank, he may have been flying the autopilot.
    Last edited by KevinJ; 05-18-2021 at 05:13 PM.

  35. #2275
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Latest “speculation” is that because of his perfect base to final arch in a shallow bank he may have been flying the autopilot.
    I don't keep up on these things, but can you actually program a VFR pattern approach into the nav system for the auto-pilot? That thought gives me the heebees.

  36. #2276
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I don't keep up on these things, but can you actually program a VFR pattern approach into the nav system for the auto-pilot? That thought gives me the heebees.
    I’ve seen it done on 737 FMS. I assume any nav system that can set waypoint, speed and altitude can do it. Some folks like typing I guess.
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  37. #2277
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVATIVAK71 View Post
    I’ve seen it done on 737 FMS. I assume any nav system that can set waypoint, speed and altitude can do it. Some folks like typing I guess.
    Yeah, after I posted I realized I could map out a nice course on Garmin Pilot. If I had an autopilot, it would follow it, I guess.

    Still gives me the heebees, lol. Wouldn't an autopilot disengage or otherwise freak out if it can't follow a tight enough turn to final, though? Or maybe waypoints were way off?

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    May have been flying the heading bug?

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    People.....He had blown through his assigned runway, AND the parallel runway, and was still essentially wings level.

    Autopilots are smarter than that.

    Good Grief!

    MTV
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    Whose got the picture of the Cirrus mass arrival into OSH?

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