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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #1841

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    Dick McIntyre was a good man! I knew him back in the late 60's.when He had a contract flying in the arctic for one of the Canadian outfits doing surveys that I was working fore. Thanks to him and 2 of his pilots they were kind enough to give me some dual flying time that started my flying career.
    Ernie
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  2. #1842
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Never


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    We ARE the report
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  3. #1843
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Dick McIntyre was one of only two pilots that offered me advice on flying external loads (mainly on floats) in the '70's. Paul Shanahan was the other. Everyone else said figure it out on your time when asked. These two old timers were concerned about safe ops and didn't want to loose yet another despite my inexperience. It can be risky business if not done right. Guess they had learned the hard way.

    Gary
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  4. #1844
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    And if harmless coffee table discussion here troubles any of you then go here for a reality check: https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news-13/

    Dust in the wind

    Gary
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  5. #1845
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Dick McIntyre was one of only two pilots that offered me advice on flying external loads (mainly on floats) in the '70's. Paul Shanahan was the other. Everyone else said figure it out on your time when asked. These two old timers were concerned about safe ops and didn't want to loose yet another despite my inexperience. It can be risky business if not done right. Guess they had learned the hard way.

    Gary
    Dick was a career pilot in the Air Force before settling in FAI. He once told the story of a B-29 that crashed on the Greenland ice cap. Dick and his crew was tasked with the search, flying a B-29 out of Eielson AFB, near Fairbanks. A fascinating story, we asked Dick “Why fly out of Eielson for a search in Greenland?” He said “Look at a globe.”

    That gent did a LOT of stuff in his day.

    MTV
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  6. #1846

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    Before computer flight plans were the norm, a globe was essential for planning international trips.

  7. #1847

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    Two minute video, for what it’s worth. As many know, the experience referenced is one not forgotten.

    https://www.rotor.org/resources/safe...-on-safety-sos
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  8. #1848
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    Oops, darn it...

    We lost more to another Alaskan midair.

    News on KTUU. Name sounds very familiar. I’m sure he’s known. My condolences.


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  9. #1849
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://www.ktuu.com/2020/08/27/plan...ries-reported/


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  10. #1850
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Ahhhh crap! Know Larry the Cub pilot above well and the Cub's co-owner does my maintenance. No guarantees it'll be a nice day especially this time of year with all the flying activity in Alaska and elsewhere.

    Gary
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  11. #1851
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Both pilots in that one are friends. Damn......

    MTV
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  12. #1852
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    More info on the Fairbanks midair: http://www.newsminer.com/news/local_...60113fa5d.html

    The Cessna was a 185, not a 172.

    MTV
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  13. #1853
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    More info on the Fairbanks midair: http://www.newsminer.com/news/local_...60113fa5d.html

    The Cessna was a 185, not a 172.

    MTV
    kinda odd... that 185 looks in good shape, other than the fire damage... must have hit the main cabin???

  14. #1854
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Yack it up on the radio at these relatively unmonitored strips and careful with the short approach stuff. Spin the plane 360* before taking the runway or pond.

    Gary
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  15. #1855

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    In PAFA airspace. East and West side controlled by tower. East side Uncontroled below ? feet[would need to look at my supplement]. My work between the two is with tower and myself. always moniter The marina freq. Tower wants to know when I'm down and clear [landing] and before I take runway must have atis and inform tour hen airborne . They will give me direction and altitude as I'm landing on the East side at international. They will inform you what downwind or hight over head or direct to ski strip when traffic allows. Say unfamilure if unsure . Crazy place during hunting season. Read the Alaska supplement in depth. No radio aircraft operate in and out. After 911 FAA wanted all those small airports in 5 miles closed down.
    Sandy

  16. #1856
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    Chena Marina is a very interesting place. There are at least four fairly busy landing surfaces RIGHT there, including Fairbanks International, Chena Marina strip and float pond, the Chena River at Pikes and the strip on the Chena. I was always amazed at how casual the tower controllers were at FAI with all this going on right next to the main runway at FAI.

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    Chena Marina is the straight ditch just west of the south end of FAI. Hard to see, but there’s a gravel strip right next to the float pond there. I wonder if one of these planes was on wheels and the other on floats? It’s hard to see traffic on the surface from one surface to the other. Larry has a cabin on a strip on the Wood River, so was likely on wheels.

    Tough deal in any case.

    MTV
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  17. #1857
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    Both on wheels Mike according to the pics I've seen so far.

    I parked at AK28 Chena Marina on skis for a few years and the CTAF 118.3 is a shared freq with the adjacent FAI tower. When busy with traffic in the Class D surface area it can be a waiting game on the ground or in the air to call movement ops at Chena Marina. Or...worse yet your call can be covered with other unknown radio traffic. Another odd feature is the Chena River traffic (2Z5) in between the two airports has a CTAF of 122.9 posted. Who's listening there to 118.3? I suspect there's airspace reviews and changes coming after this sad accident.

    Gary
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  18. #1858
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Interesting. Chena Marina used to share the CTAF with the other surfaces over there (River freq.).

    The standard FAA comm. procedure for uncontrolled airports overlain by Delta surface area was takeoff announcing on CTAF for the uncontrolled airport, then once airborne call the tower on their freq.

    I can imagine with Chena Marina on the FAI Tower freq. that there could be long delays.

    I know there were always planes coming and going from the uncontrolled airports within the FAI surface area without talking. Seemed like many of those originated from east side strips, though.

    MTV
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  19. #1859
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Pattern altitude of ~1200' MSL for AK28 and (I assume?) 2Z5 the Chena river (Riverboat Discovery ops?) vs 1500' MSL FAI was a sometimes forgotten caution.

    Chena Marina has other problems. Tall trees and structures close to the runway or pond can obstruct aircraft in the pattern from the sighting of ground or water ops. Planes parked along the runway or road vehicles have little wiggle room before taking the active surface to back taxi/runup/takeoff. Short mid-surface approaches to land can block downward vision of aircraft below or behind moving or taking off.

    It's truly the Wild West at times especially during a busy Fall hunting season or weather day.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 08-28-2020 at 02:37 PM. Reason: AK28 pattern altitude

  20. #1860

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    Perhaps all the new flashy gizmos in the cockpits have us looking inside the airplane instead of outside where our eyes belong. I know I have caught myself doing it. To counteract this I have reverted to only using the highest-resolution moving map display available today. It's full HD with color and there is no traffic or weather data lag whatsoever and there is no charge for data updates. It made out of Plexiglass and called a windscreen.

  21. #1861
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    Similar thing happens at a grass field I learned at and instructed at. 23N is in the inner circle of KISP Class C with a cutout and a 650 MSL pattern. North South runway. 122.7 Unicom. An airplane wishing to hop over to ISP and land on 33 was sitting on the south end of the grass runway waiting for the go ahead from the tower at ISP on 119.3. Meanwhile another airplane approaching 23N from the south on 122.7 had no sight line of the airplane on the ground because he was tucked up against the trees. He started his takeoff just as the second plane (low wing) came over the trees. The take off airplane was faster than the landing airplane. The landing airplane struck the rudder of the take off airplane. Neither one knew what happened. The take off landed at ISP thinking he hit a pot hole until he saw his rudder. The RV 12 pilot says he never saw what he hit. Just spun around on the runway and saw his prop broken. Missed a double fatal by tenths of seconds. Also missed a non event by tenths of seconds in the other direction. FAA issued an advisory circular regarding operations at 23N to attempt to avoid repeating these circumstances. Essentially don’t sit on the part of the runway that can’t be seen from base or final without monitoring Unicom or announcing what you are doing. And then, don’t sit on that part of the runway at all.
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  22. #1862
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I reviewed both Flightrader24 and ADS-B Exchange online during the reported time period of the Fairbanks area - Chena Marina airport mid-air (+-2300 GMT/1400 LCL 8/27/20). Nothing was recorded, or at least available via N-Number flight following. See and avoid only as the gizmo-driven displays were worthless in that instance.

    The Fairbanks tower com tapes and TRSA radar may offer clues at some point. Same for any onboard GPS if recovered.

    Gary
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  23. #1863

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    I can't imagine anyone staring at an ADS-B screen during any phase of flight but less so during landings and takeoffs. What I do imagine is two planes changing altitude in the same space. Field of view is limited.

    With or without radios standard pattern entry is the best safety tool pilots have in an uncontrolled airport environment, and lots of guys don't use it. That comment isn't directed at this situation. It's just a general comment.
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  24. #1864

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    I was checking pastures in my RV8, instead of the cub a couple days ago when i heard
    “ 2 papa delta i will be working the area just east of you”
    It was a airtractor that showed up on my ‘in’ screen in the RV... now thinking of putting adsb in cub


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  25. #1865

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    It seems to me whether you have all the “gizmos” or not is irrelevant. It’s how you use them. The pilot always has, and always will be the biggest variable in aviation. Watch any of the “Air Disaster” type series on TV. From new pilots to seasoned professional, most accidents have a large human factors component. You don’t need to be a professional pilot to develop standard procedures that may help you avoid some of the pitfalls of flying. Always announce if you have a radio, always fly a pattern, always do a 360 to scan for traffic before departure. No guarantees, but cheap insurance. You’ll never have to explain why you did these things, but you may have to explain why you didn’t.
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  26. #1866
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    I got ridiculed one year by someone on here when I said I taught cigar tip for a run up checklist and the p stood for pattern.
    Which was a 360 visual look before pulling on the runway to take off

    Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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  27. #1867
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    Student and inexperienced pilots are subjected to what ever pilot influence is within earshot. I say this because on one of my many trips as a young pilot I announced x miles out to an airport in MA. Then I announced entering downwind.
    And then someone presumably at the airport keyed up and said “we don’t make blind announcements at xyz airport”.
    I wondered if I had done something wrong, or how anyone knew where anyone else was, but either way I shut up and never said another word.
    Today that would be a different response.


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  28. #1868

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    I’ve always used CIGAR and GUMPS. Works great. And I agree Peter, be very careful who you choose as your mentor or hero in aviation. The pilot that would fly the biggest load out of the shortest strip in the worst weather used to be idolized by young pilots (me included) in Alaska.
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  29. #1869
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...age-airplanes/

    Some Disinfectants Can Damage Airplanes


  30. #1870
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    Strong alcohol is a better solvent than most people realize. Just look what it's done to the inside of my skull.
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  31. #1871

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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Strong alcohol is a better solvent than most people realize. Just look what it's done to the inside of my skull.
    Can't see in there
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

  32. #1872
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    Student and inexperienced pilots are subjected to what ever pilot influence is within earshot.
    so true...
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  33. #1873

  34. #1874
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti...A-18_REV_D.pdf

    The reported Piper rudder failures updated w/pics of the damaged parts.

    Gary
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  35. #1875
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/...investigation/


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  36. #1876
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti...A-18_REV_D.pdf

    The reported Piper rudder failures updated w/pics of the damaged parts.

    Gary
    I wonder what the max rudder deflection was set to. In excess of the type certificate spec?? -18 spec is greater deflection than -12. J3 is greater yet.
    Gordon

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  37. #1877
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    I wonder what the max rudder deflection was set to. In excess of the type certificate spec?? -18 spec is greater deflection than -12. J3 is greater yet.
    Good point Gordon. Non-conformity plus any extra airspeed or prop blast can break things not designed for the loads encountered.

    Gary

  38. #1878
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    I wonder what the max rudder deflection was set to. In excess of the type certificate spec?? -18 spec is greater deflection than -12. J3 is greater yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Good point Gordon. Non-conformity plus any extra airspeed or prop blast can break things not designed for the loads encountered.

    Gary
    IF, This is a contributing factor in these incidents, then it would be improper operation of the controls by the pilot. Under what circumstances do you apply full rudder, other than at low speeds when the air loads are relatively low? It is doubtful that you have the strength to displace the rudder to full travel at a high speed, nor would you likely attempt it as it is not needed.

    The certificated rudder stop limit angle is most likely set so that the rudder will not interfere with the elevator at full travel. Just a limit for mechanical reasons.

    The only flight testing which is done for determining if the maximum travel is too much is a rudder lock test. AND that is for multi-engine airplanes when there is offset thrust to be considered.

    I could believe it was caused by a lot of shaking IF it had an old motor driven Grimes or Whelen rotating beacon mounted. Then the weight on a long shaky arm could have contributed to a failure in this location. Those beacons used to be very common mounted on the rudders. Do any of you know of them being the cause of many rudder failures? I don't. None of the bent rudders in the picture had a heavy beacon mounted.

    I'd be more inclined to believe these failures were caused by some external continual forces. Such as the airplane being tied down during an extreme wind storm. Most of you have witnessed what happens to an airplane and it's control surfaces during violent storms. I have and it is scary.
    N1PA
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  39. #1879
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    didn't see any holes....

    the moose like to use planes at lake hood to beat the stuff off their antlers.... one was just recovered .... destroyed the rudder...

  40. #1880
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I can think of a few, hard or impossible to document, possibilities that could aggravate the situation. Rapid rudder reversals in flight, somebody having pushed on the rudder on the ground then pushing it back straight, defective weld at the hinge bracket causing stress concentration, mass-exacerbated vibration, excessive deflection limit (TCDS deflection limit keeps the rudder a long ways from the elevators), metallurgical anomaly (seems unlikely). Undoubtedly there could be other factors, but that's what occurs to me right now.
    Gordon

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