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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #1321

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    I recently worked the EAA's most recent B-17 tour which was just 16 miles from where 909 crashed. During the multi day ground tour there were many people who were at BDL at the time of the crash as well as a few people who were right at the scene. I am not going to put in writing what I heard and learned but it was truly saddening to hear of what may never get released and probably should not get released to the press or public.
    But working the ground tour I also was able to relieve many peoples fears of both the Living History tours, Historic aircraft and flying in general.
    This event was very small compared to what my wife and I hosted 3 weeks before primarily due to advertising as well as the aftermath of the crash.
    It was a happy/sad experience working this one.
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  2. #1322

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    Originally Posted by skywagon8a
    ...Any helicopter pilot knows that the big fan on top blows a lot of debris everywhere.

    This isn't entirely accurate either. I fly around in a lot of smaller helicopters, mostly the R44 Clipper and Raven II, the A-Star's and a few flights in the R66 this summer.

    One of the most recent places we've flown from is the gravel strip in Hope.

    On lift-off the A-Star has no dust blowing.

    Same day, same time, R-44 disappears in dust being kicked up.

    Every setup is different and every flight is different.

    At the end of the day I always find myself with a big grin though.
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  3. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    I couldn't disagree more with this statement. As a group civilian helicopter pilots have shown me that they are the stupidest pilots of all- as a group they have no idea what the "big fan" on top does. I can't tell you how many times in both the lower 48 and in Alaska I've had helicopters hover over me to set a sling load right behind me. Or land right in front of me at a fuel dock so they could beat their buddy to fuel (I've even heard these dimwits tell their buddy over the radio their going to beat them to the pumps). Or want to take off right next to me while I fueling (and at times I have to forcefully stop them), and I'm not just talking about the R44 clowns, but pilots of Jetrangers (and their newer models) and even bigger helicopters. I won't even fuel at Seward any more because the clowns that fly the helicopter tours are the worse offenders and don't care. My experience is that civilian helicopter pilots, as a group, think they are "special". They are "special" alright. Rant over.
    Sorry Barnstormer, I left out one word......SHOULD. I agree with you, my observations have been the same.
    N1PA
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  4. #1324

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    Quote Originally Posted by StalledOut View Post
    I fly around in a lot of smaller helicopters, mostly the R44 Clipper and Raven II, the A-Star's and a few flights in the R66 this summer.
    Yesterday I was walking the dog and a Robinson came in and landed at the neighbor's. I was quite a bit upwind and it occurred to me that I could smell diesel fumes and that helicopter was the only thing running. It wasn't until I walked past it that I saw R-66 Turbine on the side. I had no idea the R-66 existed until I read it here and now it seems the neighbor has one. I'll pay more attention to the dark blue one from now on.
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  5. #1325
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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  6. #1326
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    In the meantime pending NTSB investigation I wanted to learn something about landing with tailwinds, weight, and runway conditions. Not suggesting though that it was a contributing factor in the recent overrun at Unalaska (http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/1...-occurred.html). The first link presents the topic and the second emphasizes tailwinds and others.

    https://reports.nlr.nl/xmlui/bitstre...=1&isAllowed=y
    https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1148.pdf

    Gary

  7. #1327
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Oops, darn it...

    Gary, there is some strong comments on that overrun in one of the “Flyout Alaska” Facebook groups. One of two high time ex-Penair pilots talk about going into Dutch Harbor, having a wind observer on the ground for up to the second reports, and how it requires precision with that aircraft. Apparently the 340 was a much preferred aircraft.


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  8. #1328
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    I'm still digesting the links above as it's quite easy to judge and I'm relatively ignorant - large aircraft and tailwind vs performance. Something about trying twice and succeeding once got my attention, but more as I read and learn. I am sure that other pilots figured out that runway and winds. Takes time that maybe wasn't available in this case.

    Gary

  9. #1329
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    From experiences told to me, not that simple. My neighbor buddy flew the Chain for Reeve Aleutian and PenAir for many years. He described Dutch this way in a txt last nite: "The forecast (and windsock at one end) don't mean s***. Flew into that place for 30 years. All depends on when to make a go or no go decision. Split second decision. I survived." He relates it much more colorfully in person.
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  10. #1330
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Local Aleutian news re the overrun: https://www.kucb.org/term/regional

    Gary

  11. #1331
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    This comment pretty much sums Dutch up. I flew Metroliners into that airport for years with the old Penair. Split second decision making is an understatement, especially with the wind. That ground WX observer (usually Connie) was the greatest asset to pilots. When winds and vis started doing rapid changes her reports were rapid as well. Lots of approach options Front Door, Back Door and multiple approaches to “feel it out” so to speak. Pilots back in those days (737, Electras, Metros, SAAB’s, Grumman’s and Navajo’s etc.) were VERY familiar with reading black water and go around options to minimize turbulence and bad visibility should things not workout. That being said Dutch has had its share of accidents/incidents. When ever a few of us get together and talk flying stories it’s always “remember when that huge headwind turned to a huge tailwind right before touch down.” Everything is great then that linebacker picks your tail up and pushes you faster. Do I stay or Go? You got less than a second to decide before you ate up most of the runway. Sounds easy.
    Those Reeve Aleutian crews were pretty impressive in some of the conditions I watched them land in..............got sick just watching one land.

  12. #1332
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    "Reading black water" like flying on floats. Good tool.

    Gary

  13. #1333
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    from what I heard this morning...
    • pilot is Dash captain for ravn, only had ~130 hours in Saab??, they used to require 300 hours, but they dropped that requirement...(for dutch??)
    • he doesn't like landing the other direction there(there's a name for that approach, I forget what they said it was), and he landed with the wind... twice..


    also my girlfriends friend Marri? was on the flight with her 4 kids.... so we were getting pictures right away on her FaceBook feed... she didn't even remember taking them, but they were on her phone...

  14. #1334
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #1335
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    They put the SAAB 2000 on a barge today. Floats are better. Now to discovery.

    Earlier MarkAir 737...here's "Larry's Flight into Dutch Harbor Alaska" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSMSXvC02qc

    And for dessert> A G-21 flight from Dutch> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_IS1V6nRzE
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 10-20-2019 at 02:08 AM.
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  16. #1336
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    Not long after Mark Air started service to Dutch with 737s, they took the main gear off one on the sea wall at the approach end of the runway. I can’t recall if that was before the runway was paved.

    Reeve would only go there with the YS-11. Electra had more wingspan, and that mountain on the left is mighty close landing 12.

    Can be a very unfriendly place.

    MTV
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  17. #1337
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  18. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Once at that place was more than enough for me. Too many Hot Dogs.
    If you make it to the ground you get to watch the mayhem. Isn’t that your type of fun??


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  19. #1339

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Not long after Mark Air started service to Dutch with 737s, they took the main gear off one on the sea wall at the approach end of the runway. I can’t recall if that was before the runway was paved.

    Reeve would only go there with the YS-11. Electra had more wingspan, and that mountain on the left is mighty close landing 12.

    Can be a very unfriendly place.

    MTV
    It was still gravel at the time. If I recall, the OPSPECS was written such that the runway couldn’t be wet with dew prior to landing. Pilots completed their IOE from the jump seat, and only certain Captains could fly in there. Actually, I think a fair number refused to fly in there in the 737.
    Mark
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  20. #1340
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    Negative! I got incredibly tired of an endless precession of RVs doing multiple high speed low approaches at warp eight. When I was ready to leave I actually had to ask this "group" to cut me some slack and make a hole to get out. I considered the whole deal reckless and out of control. You don't do that in the military. Yes, you can do a couple of low approaches to a closed pattern, but there are rules. This sideshow had no rules!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    If you make it to the ground you get to watch the mayhem. Isn’t that your type of fun??


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  21. #1341
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    mvivion wrote:
    Reeve would only go there with the YS-11
    Mike, my buddy went into Dutch in both the YS-11 and the Electra. He sez Reeve started taking the Electra in there in the
    90's.
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  22. #1342
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    Lift spoilers help. Were they available?

    Gary

  23. #1343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    mvivion wrote: Mike, my buddy went into Dutch in both the YS-11 and the Electra. He sez Reeve started taking the Electra in there in the
    90's.
    Yeah, they started doing some “different” stuff after RCR passed. I was (thankfully) well north of that country by then.

    Lots of sketchy stuff happened at Dutch. Orin Seybert and I watched a guy land and almost go over the end sea wall in a Widgeon one day there. We walked over to the Pilot after his pax left and Orin asked him why he’d landed on the ramp? The pilot said “Ramp? Well then, where the hell is the runway?” He didn’t realize the runway was gravel, so landed on the only hard surface. Nice short landing, though. Braking almost put it up on its nose.

    But it all worked out.....he had at least five feet of “runway” left. We helped him push the plane back so he could turn it around.

    MTV

  24. #1344

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    Dutch was never my favorite airport. Went in there in Navajo’s, Conquest’s and a Citation with a gravel kit. The Citation had a restriction that you could not deploy the reversers on gravel runways, but one of our pilots (retired Reeve pilot) pulled full reverse one day so that he wouldn’t go off the end. FOD’d both engine fans, but better than going off the end. I felt bad for him because he went his whole career in Alaska and never put a scratch on anything. Then, his “fun” retirement job he had this happen. Also had a friend who was in the right seat of the ERA Lear that went off the side of the runway and hit the cliff face. Plane was on fire and he pulled the unconscious Captain out and was burned pretty bad doing it.
    Mark

  25. #1345
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Some better info on the Dutch crash.

    https://www.alaskapublic.org/2019/10...ors-standards/


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  26. #1346
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    I feel really bad for Orin. He put his heart and soul into that company. I remember winter of 77 (?) he bought the Reeve Goose operation out of Cold Bay, which included the mail contracts for all the water stops and most of the villages on the end of the Peninsula with runways. Reeve hadn't had a Goose pilot for a long time....like many weeks. Orin bought the outfit just before Christmas. He hired Swede Erickson to fly the Goose and Orin brought one of his Widgeons out to CDB and they flew looooong hours trying to catch up with Christmas mail.

    Christmas Eve, Orin finished up. Swede had taken the Goose to AKN to have some much needed maintenance done on it. Orin made the last mail run, fueled up, and launched in the dark headed home, which I think was Pilot Point.

    Orin always took care of the folks his company served. Danny losing the company to bankruptcy had to hurt bad enough, but then this.....

    MTV
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  27. #1347
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    More delayed changes for service to Dutch harbor: https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...g-fatal-crash/ and https://www.kucb.org/#stream/0

    There must be some real concern over that Saab 2000 and of course the fatality.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 10-24-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  28. #1348
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post

    There must be some real concern over that Saab 2000 and of course the fatality.

    Gary
    they only owned 3 of the Saab.... so that's 1/3 of the fleet out of service.... PenAir bought them used from some Nascar team... if i remember right.... PenAir's downfall(twice) was trying to expand down into lower 48 essential air service routes....

  29. #1349
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    maybe a couple weeks without 121 flights... changing to Dash's.... maybe they can point them into the wind.....

    Separated families, fishermen with toothaches wait as air service to Unalaska is delayed until next month

  30. #1350

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    Can anyone tell what type of Cessna (Piper?) this is? Note the lava rock outcroppings. About 20 miles from my place, a windy day but nothing too extreme or unusual. No further info from the local media. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2019/1...merican-falls/

  31. #1351
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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  32. #1352

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    I agree, Mooney, red brown may well be mid 80s.

  33. #1353
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    Courier Guy;
    Regis#: N201BJ
    Aircraft Make: MOONEY
    Aircraft Model: M20J
    LOCATION
    City: AMERICAN FALLS
    State: IDAHO

    Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES IN A FIELD, AMERICAN FALLS, ID.
    INJURY DATA
    Total Fatal: 1
    Owner Name: WHEELER ROBERT J

  34. #1354
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    Here is an odd one.......................

    Date: 17-OCT-19
    Time: 17:07:00Z
    Regis#: N2894
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: ACCIDENT
    Highest Injury: UNKNOWN
    Aircraft Missing: No
    Damage: SUBSTANTIAL
    LOCATION
    City: GERLACH
    State: NEVADA
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES AND WAS ABANDONED, GERLACH, NV.

  35. #1355

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    Courier Guy;
    Regis#: N201BJ
    Aircraft Make: MOONEY
    Aircraft Model: M20J
    LOCATION
    City: AMERICAN FALLS
    State: IDAHO

    Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES IN A FIELD, AMERICAN FALLS, ID.
    INJURY DATA
    Total Fatal: 1
    Owner Name: WHEELER ROBERT J
    there has been something about this one that has been bothering me, This picture was taken as I was loading to go out to Osh in '17. I am in the blue shirt.
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  36. #1356
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    there has been something about this one that has been bothering me, This picture was taken as I was loading to go out to Osh in '17. I am in the blue shirt.
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    and, what does that photo have to do with the accident, other than aircraft make?

    MTV
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  37. #1357

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    It is the same exact aircraft, take a look at the N number.

  38. #1358

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    It is the same exact aircraft, take a look at the N number.
    I see N201BJ vs N201BS
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  39. #1359

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    I see N201BJ vs N201BS
    Interesting, when I looked at Kathryn's I read it as 201BS, but yes I stand corrected. My error in I somehow was shocked when I thought I lost another friend who does travel out that way. I am glad i made the mistake and was holding off making contact. I was a bit surprised the color was changed after the plane went off the end of a runway a year ago.

  40. #1360

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    Alex. Seems like that’s the one they wrecked pre High Sierra Fly In. Saw a picture of it on HSF Facebook page I think.

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