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Oops, darn it...

One other point: The FAA is woefully slow in issuing “permanent” certificates these days. So, it’s possible the gent had a “temporary” Private Pilot certificate in his pocket. Certificate action isnt noted in FAA database till they get around to issuing the plastic.

And, yes, a student pilots logbook must be endorsed for solo flights by an authorized instructor. BUT, it’s up to the CFI to endorse the limitations on that solo endorsement.

MTV
 
With no specific application to this accident, I can offer a point of view from when I was a new pilot. My instructors never told me anything about mountain flying or mountain pass flying. That topic wasn't important to pass my check ride. It was my mentors and pilot friends who took the time to explain things like mountain winds, approaching a pass slowly with 2 notches of flaps, being prepared for bad weather, and to EXPECT to do a 180* turn. It was a few years later, in the company of Tom Wardleigh, that I was schooled on face bender canyon turns up against the face of a real mountain. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I was or how gracefully Tom could demonstrate them. We should all take time to be mentors to new pilots. Encourage good planning, good judgement, and good training.
 
An old saying...."think about the going out before the coming in" (from Jack Flanders). Can't recall how many times I've suggested that to others only to be met by a 40 mile stare. Always looking ahead never back apparently until it's there.

Gary
 
With no specific application to this accident, I can offer a point of view from when I was a new pilot. My instructors never told me anything about mountain flying or mountain pass flying. That topic wasn't important to pass my check ride. It was my mentors and pilot friends who took the time to explain things like mountain winds, approaching a pass slowly with 2 notches of flaps, being prepared for bad weather, and to EXPECT to do a 180* turn. It was a few years later, in the company of Tom Wardleigh, that I was schooled on face bender canyon turns up against the face of a real mountain. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I was or how gracefully Tom could demonstrate them. We should all take time to be mentors to new pilots. Encourage good planning, good judgement, and good training.

That made me smile when you mentioned Tom. I did my primary flight training with Tom Wardleigh, and because he knew my goals as a pilot included lots of mountain flying, that's exactly what we did. I was incredibly fortunate to receive such training from the earliest stages, and from someone that had the breadth of experience that Tom had.

Our dual cross country was from ANC to Seldovia, then to Seward, and back to ANC. For my solo cross country he had me fly from ANC to Gulkana, then to Talkeetna before returning to Anchorage. I can't thank him enough for stretching me like that as a student pilot!
 
So how do we stop the cycle of new pilots killing themselves? CFI's have only so much time to teach the basics of flying, mostly because pilots are cheap or just don't have the money for extra training. Sounds like this student owned his own plane. It is not uncommon for student pilots to be flying for an extra year or two before they get around to getting a PPL. If he is flying out of Sutton basically every flight is a mountain flight. I was talking with a friend about how to help new pilots learn safe off field techniques (avoiding/breaking bad You Tube and STOL comp techniques) We could set up a 5 strip course and video the pilots, then review/teach over moose burgers latter. Hopefully we get it set up next spring. Lots of good books and information on mountain flying, but reading is not like doing. I was able to take help a low time pilot bring his plane over to Valdez early this year on a nice day. It was a flight of two going over, we could have gone high but instead we flew the passes as if we only had 100 ft of clearance, showed how to inspect a pass and set up for early turn out, went through both Portage pass and Thompson pass, Came over into the Knik on the way home. Basic stuff for many of us but not for a low time pilot. That is a pretty simple way to help new pilots get a handle on flying in the mountains. Now the hard issue! How do we teach them to fly in the scud?? Just saying don't do it is like telling 17 year olds not to have sex or drink. It is a advanced skill that requires much more knowledge of aircraft engine management because you have to troubleshoot while still keeping you head outside the plane. Just going IFR is often not an option ( I have gotten ice buildup at 1,300 ft just trying to get to Valdez in May) Maybe a hanger meeting to just talk about some of the issues they don't write about. If everyone can grab a new pilot or two yearly and spend some time with them we may save some lives. My CFI buddy spent 10 hours with me this spring trying be beat the proper operation of a Cessna 180 on floats into my head, so what go's around comes around. Just pontification on a crappy day, need to refill the coffee cup.
Be safe
DENNY
 
So how do we stop the cycle of new pilots killing themselves?

I have been fortunate to fly with several long time CFIs in Anchorage that have set me up for success so far. I was taught good habits, many of which you outline, but there's only so many things you can do in your 40-60 hours before getting that license. You touched on it, but one thing I think I could have done better in training is actually flying in lower visibility days. I think often CFIs are reticent to go out on days with 3-8 miles vis because they are being risk averse. And I don't blame them, students are trying to kill them all the time and I wouldn't want to add visibility to the list. But going out on a crappy day with an instructor would have made my first time flying in 1-2 miles vis a little less shocking. The other side of this is that we don't generally want people to get used to, at low hours, flying in super bad conditions in rough terrain but clearly they're going to anyway based on this latest and the Portage Pass accident.

However we probably also have a lot of young CFIs out there that likely don't have too much experience in the scud and the crud, so maybe not have the blind leading the blind? Man, I just don't know.
 
First step is to get the new pilot's head out of the cockpit and ahead of the airplane. Really plan the route prior to flight. Note WX (forecast air temps, winds aloft, dew points, cloud bases, reported or forecast obscurations for visibility), and especially expected terrain elevations enroute, and for the point of departure if returning is likely. If the forecast or pilot reports say for example broken to overcast at 2000, and the terrain approaches, meets, or exceeds that then expect some challenges. Note expected timing of flight versus needed course changes...like when to expect a valley or mountain turn when airborne. This is just some but there's way more.

Scud flying course? Like MVFR or down to a mile in Class G? Before I'd suggest doing that type of aviating I'd learn how to determine visibility and distance from clouds or ground and obstacles in flight. Pre-GPS it took some forward reference versus airframe component (like top of cowling to object slant angle = distance) at a given AGL, or time to reach a terrain feature (like at a mile a minute ground speed) and therefore flight visibility distance at a given airspeed. Now with some GPS' it's a matter of pointing a chosen distance extended heading line (say 3 miles ahead on the GPS screen) and determine if its expected end over terrain can be visually seen ahead. Also lateral distance can be estimated via a chosen distance legend on the display.

The problem is not all ground is flat like Nebraska (even rivers rise and fall). Rising and descending terrain/waterways complicate things in poor weather. Keeping a desired distance AGL, speed expected (both ground and air), and aircraft orientation becomes hard work especially in marginal visibility with several course changes over uneven terrain in wind. It really becomes soft IFR, but without adequate panel gauges and proficiency in their use it's not the place for the unexperienced to be to begin with.

Enough, Gary
 
This has been a concern for ages. It took Duane Cole an extra year to release "VFR tips" while he waited for just the right conditions to film reduced visibility without it getting too risky. A 40 hr course can't accomodate that. Were we more immersed in flying back then? More likely to have ridden right seat through the scud before doing it solo? Now we know just how many minutes it takes to get back from the airport to soccer practice.
 
So how do we stop the cycle of new pilots killing themselves? CFI's have only so much time to teach the basics of flying, mostly because pilots are cheap or just don't have the money for extra training.
DENNY

I am calling BS on this.

As instructors we need to hold the line on training, and spend the time to teach students the tools they need. Maybe not skills to the level of professional pilots, but enough that they have the knowledge to get themselves to a safe landing when weather moves in.

One thing we can do is turn off the GPS and make people learn to navigate by paper charts in marginal weather so they have to keep situational awareness, and as said before calculate time/distance visibility.

I am on shift in Gulkana, and was out flying during the search for the champ. Sad deal, but we were told the pilot had less than 100 hours, that was second hand and have not been able to verify.

The plane made it through the pass, but not out of the mountains. The weather was terrible, we were being careful where we went, even during the search. I did not make it to some of the places I was supposed to go due to low wx, including important parts going to a mine.

Reality is that no one is immune, and weather can sucker you. The more training you can give folks in non-gps low weather the better, even if it is only to show people that they should not be out in it.

Best wishes to the family. Will be tough for for them- the wife came through our office and seemed like a wonderful lady.
 
Reportedly the plane was 300 yards from the Richardson Highway.

He might have been trying to make it to the airport that is not far from there next to the highway... sometimes we push to avoid highway landings. But who knows.
 
For my money, I doubt any amount of training would have prevented this accident. This was a terrible decision, and sadly it seems many aviation related decisions are still personality related. That leads to things like this. From what I've seen and heard of this, no reasonable person would be out in weather like that - and especially not in an area like that. One thing we have to admit in aviation is that our area of interest has an overrepresentation of "strong" personalities. That is to say, a lot of us are butt heads. Not you of course - but me and a lot of other pilots. We've all seen them. They're going to make decisions guided by personality and some of them are going to pay for it.
 
One thing we can do is turn off the GPS and make people learn to navigate by paper charts in marginal weather so they have to keep situational awareness, and as said before calculate time/distance visibility.

I doubt abandoning GPS moving map, terrain depiction, and ADS-B traffic displays with a forced reversion to paper charts would help pilots make better decisions. Would you require car driving students to demonstrate carb tickling, manual choke use, or even hand cranking before they qualified to drive their modern computer controlled cars? Would you rather share the highway with a driver head-down reading a map or with one head-up listening to GPS guidance?

I would advocate that all students should understand all the tools at their disposal. If the aircraft has TAWS, synthetic vision, NEXRAD etc teach them to integrate that information with what is seen out of the windows.

I was flying long before GPS and have navigated airplanes and gliders on cross country flight with paper charts. No way I would give up my GPS moving map to go back to that, nor would I expect a student to.
 
I was flying long before GPS and have navigated airplanes and gliders on cross country flight with paper charts. No way I would give up my GPS moving map to go back to that, nor would I expect a student to.
When you were a student you learned without all the modern conveniences, as did a lot of us. Now we are more experienced we appreciate these modern devices but don't depend on them. We also know how to fly without them. The newer students never flew an airplane without the modern devices, so have nothing to fall back on. There are so many of these devices in most training airplanes and, a majority of the instructors also learned to fly in these same airplanes. They too do not understand how to fly with a basic no radio panel with nothing more than a slip ball as an assist. For the past several decades the FAA has pushed IFR and radio use with the idea that all new students are striving to be airline pilots. Along the way basic airmanship has fallen by the wayside. When I took my private flight test, the most sophisticated flight aid I had to demonstrate was to track a leg of an Adcock range on a low frequency battery powered receiver (Airboy Jr. Anyone remember that one?). Times have changed, basic airmanship has suffered.

I'm sorry this fellow didn't make it to his destination. Alaska is a tough place when the conditions are not perfect.
 
I know we are always trying to help new folks interested in flying. I learned with paper charts and a watch. I wouldn't trade that knowledge for anything. I use a gps now but always have charts with me because in a non electric airplane you never know when the AAs are going to die.
IMHO I think you need 100+ hrs before you should be allowed to buy a gps. You need to understand the basic skill. Kinda like a woodworker who can't read a ruler, Ha, try to find one of those today too

Glenn
 
When you were a student you learned without all the modern conveniences, as did a lot of us. Now we are more experienced we appreciate these modern devices but don't depend on them. We also know how to fly without them. The newer students never flew an airplane without the modern devices, so have nothing to fall back on.

Valid points if discussing how well a pilot will cope after loss of an advanced avionics system. I fail to see the relevance to decision making while the advanced system is still fully functional.

If you use paper charts you'd better have two because the one you are using may get sucked out the window (or under the door as in my PA-28 ). If you are using a GPS based moving map better have more than one in case the primary fails. There is no reason to revert to paper charts unless GPS constellation is jammed or unavailable for some other reason.

I like redundancy. I have 3 SBAS (WAAS) GPS receivers in the panel, another in my Android tablet, and yet another in my Android phone. Never had a paper sectional chart in the new airplane.

Neither paper charts, nor the knowledge of how to use one, will contribute to sound decision making in deteriorating weather. Unfortunately quite a few of us improved our decision making by getting away with making a few bad ones. We need to pass on that hard won experience but I don't see reverting to use of paper charts as being a useful part of that.
 
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FWIW, I agree with both Glenn and Frequent. I think to truly comprehend what the electronic goodies tell us, it helps to have an understanding of what it is that they're computing. And that is best derived from practice with paper chart, pencil and paper, and E6B.
 
I’ll take my GPS in poor weather any day over my paper chart. (Yes, I have both and can use them). I would imagine neither will help when you’re scared and can’t see where you’re going in mountainous terrain. It’s probable that a poor decision at some point contributed to this accident, I’m just sorry the young man had to pay with his life.
 
The most important thing in the airplane is the pilot's recognition of his limits and the ability to make good decisions and then stick to them. Without that, all the other stuff is useless.

My two cents.
 
At the University, I tried to get students out (generally after they'd completed their Private Certificate) in marginal weather at least once on a low level VFRish flight. This was northern Minnesota, so no mountains or passes nearby, but a mile and a half visibility provides an "interesting" perspective that many if not most budding pilots typically don't get in primary training.

We'd take off from the uncontrolled field (G airspace to 699 agl), and boogie up to the NE. No towers that direction. The entire program was predicated on being able to pop up IFR if need be. Never had to, but that was part of the plan.

I'd get them ten or fifteen miles out, have them do some maneuvering, all low level, then change the page on the PFD and MFD, to as best I could, simulate a failure. The look on their face was always interesting, to say the least. And, predictably, they would do nothing....nada. Just stare at the instruments, which were dead. After an appropriate interval to see if they'd figure it out, I'd gently suggest they take a look at the whiskey compass..... Point was, to START doing something, deliberately, not hastily. "Okay, there's a river down there. What direction is the water flowing?". What river might that be? If we were to follow that river, where would it take us if we go upstream? How about downstream?" Etc.

Point was to get them to start THINKING about their predicament. Many if not most people will vapor lock initially. So, the idea was to get them to start thinking, and develop a logical plan. Then execute the plan. This was done in the local area, so most of them knew the area fairly well, but I pointed out that even in strange country, there are features you can use.....even if you can only see a mile or so.

Initially, "management" was a little concerned that I was training them to fly in lousy weather. But, every one of these kids I did this with noted at the conclusion of the flight that it was the scariest thing they'd done in a plane, and they really didn't want to go there inadvertently on their own. That's when I pointed out that there ARE mountains, towers, etc out there in places, and scud running can get ugly fast.

My theory was that pilots talk about flying in lousy weather, but most don't ever really see what the belly of the beast looks like. Even doing it in flat country gives them perspective so they can use their imagination as to what that looks like in the mountains. And, this wasn't a map reading excercise....I never bothered with a chart. Keeping the airplane right side up and headed straight is enough of a challenge initially.

I sure wish someone had introduced me to crap weather before I got myself into it and had to figure it out by my self.

But, as noted it can be hard to get this done in most flight training environments. All our planes were IFR capable, and popping up was easy and safe in that environment if need be.

And, mountains, passes, etc can be an entirely different world. There you are truly dancing with the Devil....... I hope I never get myself in one of those deals again.

It does come down to decision making. And, that was what I was trying to instill in students: Start developing decisions, GOOD decisions soon, then execute those decisions after they're carefully thought out. Then, SLOW IT DOWN. As in pull the power back a bit, lower some flaps, configure the airplane to turn if you need to. Etc.

MTV
 
My GPS experience with moving maps or sim'ed terrain with an airplane flying ahead in the middle is very limited. But I can see where all that plastic could lead a pilot into a dead end in unfamiliar territory. If they see the ground-terrain and their position from a crow's view it might briefly become an Alfred E. Newman moment - "What, me worry?"

Gary
 
My GPS experience with moving maps or sim'ed terrain with an airplane flying ahead in the middle is very limited. But I can see where all that plastic could lead a pilot into a dead end in unfamiliar territory. If they see the ground-terrain and their position from a crow's view it might briefly become an Alfred E. Newman moment - "What, me worry?"
Gary

Take a paper chart and, by some magic of technology, put a moving airplane on it that always shows your current position and heading. Would that increase or decrease your navigation workload compared to a standard paper chart?

Now let's say the terrain shown on that magic chart could change color to red if you were low enough to hit it. Would would you prefer to read the contour lines on the chart and compare them to current altitude? Assuming you were actually in the pass you thought you were in.

If there is a problem with modern flight deck displays it may be that it's difficult to take in all the information that is available. It takes familiarity and discipline to extract and process the information that is needed at any given time.
 
I admitted unfamiliarity with GPS displays so can't argue for them. I can argue for keeping the eyes out of the cockpit with occasional confirmation of chart position. I eventually used WAC charts almost exclusively for cross country as too much detail was a distraction I didn't need. I visually memorized most of Alaska to a degree. But, I'd also mark a course on the chart with critical elevation features on a new or infrequently flown route. Now as noted it all turns warning colors (depending on user selectable AGL/terrain) so maybe that's a good reason to not proceed unless you know what your dealing with.

Gary
 
The Terrain feature in a Garmin 795 GPS is an invaluable asset when scud running in hills/mountians. You can tell if you have enough altitude to pick your way through the Brooks or any other mountain range with a simple glance. It does not tell you what the weather is but it helps knowing when to turn around. Pick a point and the GPS will tell you exactly how far out you are, look for point as you approach, once you see it look at distance to arrival and you will know what your visibility/distance should look like. The key is not to mount them in the panel if possible Keep them as high as possible so you can use peripheral vision to avoid any rocky stuff. I am old and did time with Marine Recon and Army straight leg units so I can and have came flown with only a chart, it is not that hard especially if you have been to the area at least once. Several good points have been brought up, the question remains how do we get new pilots trained?
DENNY
 
A G3X is a pretty impressive tool. If that fails? My iPhone with Garmin Pilot is also a very impressive tool. I haven’t owned a paper chart in years but I always have a current version in my pocket. FWIW, for the “paper is better” crowd, please send your replies (reply to all) via standard US Mail. We’ll wait.
 
With PP certification crossing the $14,000 threshold I seriously doubt it can be added to the standard training syllabus. And as noted - to be taught by whom? Yet another glass eyed pilot that fears unknown terrain and never lowers beyond safe gliding distance? Denny's question is valid. 50 yrs ago there was a license to learn. I don't recall being offered MVFR or even IFR training. That was my responsibility to proceed if motivated or scared into motivation.

Do we advertise for a MVFR class? That might work if supported by GoPro real imaging reinforced by advanced pre-flight planning. At least the tools for survival and turn-around skills could be made available. But look at Part 135 ops. Daily exposure and advanced training can lead to what? The regs are written with their blood (and the blood of Part 91 and 121'ers as well).

It comes down to personal risk assessment and survival skills. If that can be taught there might be a chance for some of the new pilots.

Oh, and when someone can explain how to determine the distance from clouds w/o touching them let me know.

Gary
 
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For training purposes, especially dealing with bad weather, paper charts have some advantages. I love having moving map for my day to day work, GPS saves thousands in fuel at the end of the year... BUT:

Open up a paper chart and you can see where rivers come from and go. Also, as MTV says, people can freeze in bad weather and their thought process goes awry. The GPS terrain feature flashing red all time when in the scud to me is a hinderance, I know I am within 300' of the ground, and trying to get out of it, but it keeps going red and yellow, flashing- so instead of looking out I am trying to find the button...

But in learning it is good for students to learn to look at the big picture which a chart can show easier I believe. 50 miles north are these mountains, and rivers coming south out of them so water flows that way. Look west twenty miles and there is a lake with an airport by it- turn west and find the lake, now which way do I turn to the airport.

If you don't know the basics of reading a chart, the GPS can get you into more trouble with the direct go to and nearest functions. Sometimes around here the nearest airport is the other side of a 3,000' pass; pilots need to think.

I often have my iPad with me to back up or help with the GPS to save time and money. But, there are times I just look out the window and fly to the destination- and I will pull out a paper chart quite often just to verify something, or look at an elevation really quick.
I do notice many pilots like their backup gps to back up the back-up to the primary back-up for the primary GPS, and all of them on a different mount hanging above the panel in easy pilot view. That is great, but remember when you have more than 1 mile vis it is Visual, so you need to be able to look outside and see the other planes that are flying to avoid them.

Another long day tomorrow, probably fighting weather again. Glad I was taught how to calculate time/distance to visibility, and how to watch cloud movement to assess what is happening ahead of me. The old guys that taught us how to judge and stay alive were not easy to deal with at times, but their lessons were very important.
 
Maybe it's as simple as remain VFR. Don't fly MVFR or IFR unless prepared and current. Prepared? Well that's the topic isn't it?

Edit: We should explore whether or not "experience" can be taught. Someone well versed in that discipline might offer a comment or perspective.

Gary
 
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The old guys that taught us how to judge and stay alive were not easy to deal with at times, but their lessons were very important.

That’s an understatement……….nothing like getting paid to scud run with no gps or sometimes an old Apollo loran (if you were lucky to have one) with the red LED bearing and track (that usually quit in heavy precipitation). AND getting harsh critiques from a few of those old timers. It’s funny how some were loudmouths but when their voice was serious many of us young guys listened VERY closely to their advice.


I agree with Gary. Just stay VFR……..The PPL training includes going over WX and forecasts. Don’t do marginal weather stuff unless properly equipped and trained. Even then a low weather look see can turn in more than one can chew. It’s unfortunate that gentleman lost his life that day. I’ve been in that same predicament and made it out alive. In my case my ego was my demise. It’s an unnerving overwhelming dark feeling of dread when you know you really screwed yourself and your life may end soon.

I was quiet and apparently not acting normal after that experience. When one of the the “old timers” said I look like someone who’s lost his sh#t. Looked me in the eye and said “Art, I really hope you learned something”.

Nobody had a marginal weather training program back then. Oh wait I guess we did……..on the job.
 
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