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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #2721
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    ^^^^N927AP http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/0...an-n927ap.html

    Picture from Army National Guard with tide coming in?

    Gary
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    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 05-18-2022 at 12:28 PM.

  2. #2722
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55-PA18A View Post
    .

    Heidi ?
    Theres definitely only one Heidi!

    MTV
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  3. #2723
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    I'll bet the surrounding area was a blue cloud of smoke filled with Swiss-accented swear words !!

  4. #2724

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    Terrible news from the Mayday Stol event.

    http://waynedailynews.com/local-news/mayday-stol-friday-event-canceled-due-to-on-site-incident/

  5. #2725
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  6. #2726

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    I have no idea what happened, but I’ll say it anyway- these ridiculous STOL drag things or whatever they are need to go...
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  7. #2727
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    Not much info coming out of the STOL accident. Any more news?

  8. #2728

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Not much info coming out of the STOL accident. Any more news?
    I read a Facebook post from a fellow that said he saw the accident. He said that the winds were too strong for STOL drag, so a decision was made to do a regular STOL competition. The accident pilot appeared to stall/spin on final, he did not survive.

  9. #2729
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Word I got was he got to close to the airplane in front of him, slowed down to give himself spacing and stalled and spun. From experience I tend to give the guy in front of me a lot a room. Might stem from the mid-air I was in which was propagated by two airplanes getting to close to each other on short final while in trail.
    Steve Pierce

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  10. #2730
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    From a text I received:
    News reports that it occurred during the STOL Drag races are not accurate. STOL Drag couldn’t run because of windy conditions in excess of the race op limits, and had concluded operations for the day.


    Because of this, there was a impromptu traditional STOL competition organized by the pilots.


    During that unsanctioned event, a Cessna 140 flown by Tom Dafoe got too slow and stalled from about 400’ altitude, approximately 3/4 on a mile from the end of the runway. He was killed in the accident.

    My understanding is there was no safety briefing, no air boss, no separation control, which resulted in multiple airplanes on final, and it’s likely he had to get way slow trying not to overrun the aircraft ahead of him. That may have been a significant contributing factor.


    It’s very sad, and possibly was preventable.
    Accident is at the 12:15 mark.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers
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  11. #2731
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    The wake might have iniciated it?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  12. #2732
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Had that happen once...flew into my wake circling a radio tagged fish in winter but at 1000'. The plane rolled off and down. We were passengers for a few moments. Opposite rudder had little effect until we flow out of our vortex.

    Gary
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  13. #2733
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak49flyer View Post
    I have no idea what happened, but I’ll say it anyway- these ridiculous STOL drag things or whatever they are need to go...
    I have no interest in them myself, but no one is holding a gun to the head of those who do choose to participate, still a free country.
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  14. #2734
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    I am not really convinced that stol drag had anything to do with it. We have mishaps every year at Oshkosh, Sun&Fun, Johnson Creek, etc. Any place there’s a fly-in there is the possibility of a mishap. My sincere condolences to family and friends left behind.

    Bill
    Very Blessed. "It's not an obsession, it's a passion"
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  15. #2735
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    I am not really convinced that stol drag had anything to do with it. We have mishaps every year at Oshkosh, Sun&Fun, Johnson Creek, etc. Any place there’s a fly-in there is the possibility of a mishap. My sincere condolences to family and friends left behind.

    Bill
    I agree, it appears in the video that he was just slowing behind an airplane which was able to fly very slow and then just misjudged an approach to stall which he was not able to correct in a timely manner. Very sad.
    N1PA
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  16. #2736

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    Damn shame to lose anyone. I can’t think of a single thing about the 140 crash that we should be grateful for.
    Just a damn shame.
    I’m so sorry for the next of kin and those that knew and cared for the pilot. Commiserations. Sad day.

  17. #2737
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    It appears he was behind and below the other aircraft. Sad result. Even a small amount of wake turbulence can be trouble at the edge of the envelope.

    Condolences.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  18. #2738
    S2D's Avatar
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    This thread is about learning from our and others mistakes. There will always be gatherings and accidents. Unfortunately Mr. Dafoe won't be able to learn from his mistakes.
    His airplane was faster than the others and he overtook the plane ahead of him both landings. Unfortunately the didn't adjust the second time.
    Hopefully someone reading these threads learns from his mistakes.
    My sympathies to the family and friends.
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  19. #2739
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    How would someone ever learn by having this happen at both presumably low airspeed and altitude? Not much room for recovery from the upset. Maybe knowing the altitude required for recovery and not letting that get lower AGL when slow? And what controls can work and which ones can make it worse. Can't hardly train for all of this especially when following another. Very sad deal to watch.

    Gary

  20. #2740
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    How would someone ever learn by having this happen at both presumably low airspeed and altitude? Not much room for recovery from the upset. Maybe knowing the altitude required for recovery and not letting that get lower AGL when slow? And what controls can work and which ones can make it worse. Can't hardly train for all of this especially when following another. Very sad deal to watch.

    Gary
    My takeaway is reinforcing the decision to go around when things get tight. And not push things even in a competition.

    And I'm guessing even a Zenith dragging in can produce significant wake turbulence.
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  21. #2741

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    Condolences to the family and loved ones. Used to just be GUMPS…. then turned into EGUMPS….two weeks ago turned into HEGUMPS…. My kids names are Emilia and Henry. Competition is great and there are many venues for pushing the limit. The human factor often is what gets us when towing the line.
    Last edited by bjh356; 05-22-2022 at 10:37 AM.

  22. #2742
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    When a pilot goes up to practice stalls and approaches to stalls he is expecting a wing or nose to drop. So he knows in advance what he is going to do in order to recover. How many of you know instinctively what to do when you haven't planned in advance (in your mind) that you are going to do a stall? Will you instinctively push the stick forward and add power? Use full opposite rudder if a wing drops? Do you understand there is a need to reduce the angle of attack of the wing? Regardless of the direction it is pointing at the time? Regardless of the altitude you are at?

    In this case, I didn't see any wing motion just prior to the wing dropping. This is telling me the air was smooth and he did not catch any wake turbulence from the preceding plane. Of course our view in the video is from a distance and it would be difficult to be certain.

    It is very easy to sit here and comment on an action which is on a video. This entire stall maneuver took 6 seconds, start to finish. Did he make any corrective actions to oppose the flight path? I would like to think he did, but did he? Would you rapidly apply the proper controls? Had he made prompt correct control input it is possible the worst thing that happened would have been a cleaning of his shorts.

    Have you ever had something happen to you in your plane while flying in a tight spot which required you to act without thinking first? Thinking takes time. Sometimes we don't have time.

    As S2D says, "This thread is about learning from our and others mistakes." Hopefully this will make some of you think and learn. Remember it is always better to learn from someone else's mistakes than your own.

  23. #2743
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    As S2D says, "This thread is about learning from our and others mistakes." Hopefully this will make some of you think and learn. Remember it is always better to learn from someone else's mistakes than your own.
    That is why I posted what I did above. I have been in a couple of situations where I instinctively did something and then after the excitement was over was proud of myself for how I reacted. One that comes to mind was hitting a dust devil on very short final, adding power and diving and I flew through it. For a second I thought I was toast. I think the more you fly and the more you are in tune with flying the better. Aviation can be inherently dangerous and I have lost several to it. It demands respect for sure.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  24. #2744
    Formandfunction's Avatar
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    Sucks he left five kids and a beautiful wife behind. Can't help but to feel for them. I will say it's hard to quantify risk and I still feel like motorcycles are the most dangerous by far. I think your chances are better in a stall comp than dallas traffic.Hell I have personal knowledge of two auto deaths from people falling asleep. The world is dangerous,especially when you're not looking around.
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  25. #2745

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    I just spent the time to watch the video to understand what happened, Yes the pilot was getting close to the plane in front of him. What I see here, the conditions were a quartering head wind. The C-140 pilot was bailing out of his approach and chose to turn to his right which he was turning with the wind resulting in a quick drop in airspeed which we clearly see the result in. Had he opened the throttle when initiating the turn this might have been survivable especially if the turn was not tight. Bailing to the left would have been very safe, But was against the event traffic flow. Sad to see.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process
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  26. #2746

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    Current spin/stall training for a private pilot is woefully inadequate. Standard training that demands holding altitude during a turn. Add that to all the pressure and during a STOL event and you are asking for trouble. I recommend to all pilots I meet that they get spin training during or right after the training for the PPL. Jim Dulin is always stressing to drop the nose in the turn. It should be a reflex action that is used on every flight not just read in a book. It was not the STOL event itself that was the problem just several factors that led up to the final event. Some are a easy fix others are not.
    DENNY

  27. #2747
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I doubt normal flying and landing would have placed the victim in that position with all the likely distractions. Too much going on at once in that video.

    Gary
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  28. #2748
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I just spent the time to watch the video to understand what happened, Yes the pilot was getting close to the plane in front of him. What I see here, the conditions were a quartering head wind. The C-140 pilot was bailing out of his approach and chose to turn to his right which he was turning with the wind resulting in a quick drop in airspeed which we clearly see the result in. Had he opened the throttle when initiating the turn this might have been survivable especially if the turn was not tight. Bailing to the left would have been very safe, But was against the event traffic flow. Sad to see.
    ?! No one else going to comment on this?

    Turning into the wind direction causing a rise in airspeed? Not in anything I've ever flown, the stick does that, same with downwind turns. Says the guy who just landed his 400' uphill strip with a 15 mph tailwind. I'll never forget the first time I confused airspeed with ground speed, and stalled my hang glider out while heading back into the ridge, when I woke back up.... I figured it all out, and have never done it again. I also just, an hour or so ago, made a low level, 50', turn with a 20 mph headwind, when it started snowing, and my airspeed didn't budge at all (if anything a slight increase as I dropped the nose a bit, point being it sure didn't decrease) but my ground speed jumped into the triple digits, as expected. The plane flew exactly the same, it doesn't care what direction the wind is coming from.
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  29. #2749
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Iíve been in two situations that may or may not be similar. One was my accident that I still believe was largely shear/wind roller due to landscape, but full power and rudder wasnít enough in the 3 second prior to trees.

    Second one was in what I would call a very loose formation trail on skis. Lead was in a descending right turn and I was outside to left. I believe a combination of big skis, descending and his wake dropped me in hard right forcing me to cross down to the right behind him before I was able to level and pull out, just in time to flare and touch down.

    Every flight is a learning experience if you recognize it.


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  30. #2750
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    ?! No one else going to comment on this?



    nope!

  31. #2751
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    nope!
    Me either...
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  32. #2752

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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    ?! No one else going to comment on this?
    "But for the Grace of God, go I."
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  33. #2753
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Turns close to the ground are, whether you intend them to be or not, likely to be influenced by your visual impression of ground speed. The effect can be much stronger than many would like to believe. Turning downwind gives increased ground speed and, if the ASI is not in the scan, there is a tendency to slow to make the external picture "look right".

    This is not theoretical for me. I damn nearly stalled a glider in a strong wind off airport landing. Only the ingrained habit of keeping ASI in the scan saved me that day but I was far slower than I had intended to be.

    Fly only by reference to instruments and the wind make no difference at all. How many of us fly primarily by instrument reference close to the ground?
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  34. #2754

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    It’s so tempting- but nope- still not gonna touch it!
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  35. #2755
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    A closer view of the C-140 during that bad event might inform. Never been in a fabric wing model, just a C-140A which stalled as expected (typical Cessna with tapered wing). I'd want to confirm any prior wing rigging history for the accident airplane was done in accordance with this Cessna document:

    https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/...df?as_id=51391
    https://www.cessna120140.com/Forum20...opic.php?t=372

    Gary
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  36. #2756

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    Had a rag wing 140 with a o-290 in it and it stalled as meekly as any cub, but I did almost die in an overgross downwind turn but that’s another story...

  37. #2757
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    I see a plane crabbing into a crosswind and the pilot used rudder to align with the runway heading. It looks like that input caused the right wing to stall. It probably didn't feel like a stall initially, just a response to a control input. There wasn't much time to save it after that.

    Godspeed.

  38. #2758

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    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...-near-yakutat/

    Otter crashed yesterday southeast of Yakutat. Four injuries, no fatalities as of the time of the article.
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  39. #2759

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    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/0...-five.html?m=1 Anyone know any details on this? Pics look totally mangled...

  40. #2760
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    Donít want to be that guy, but was he a fairly new pilot? Didnít the FAA remove instruction on stalls? Teach to recover at the first hint of a stall? It sure is nice to know what happens when YOUR plane gets slow. They will talk to you if you listen.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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