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Thread: Cessna 180 rear seat?

  1. #41
    SJ's Avatar
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    I have the BAS seats, I like them a lot. The plane is a two place plane most of the time anyway, but when we are going to be three or more I tell people to "bring pillows to sit on".

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  2. #42
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    By the way, here is an article about an AD on the Atlee Dodge jump seats, regarding the seat belt installation.

    http://blog.aopa.org/vfr/?p=1217


    This is what sent me down the road asking about how the BAS style stacked up. I think there are a couple of seat belt attach options for the BAS depending on what serial number and age your plane might be.

  3. #43
    aktango58's Avatar
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    I had a 57 180, and if memory is correct, the center belts attached to the bolt hole in the floor that the original rear seat back leg used, and the outside belts went to a structural hole on the sides, or a small bracket that was a quick rivet job to install
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  4. #44
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I'm nervous about a seat belt anchor being a "quick rivet job". I know that there are approved installations that are done this way. I have seen wrecks in which all of the rivets have sheared with the result not being to the benefit of the occupant. I would prefer a belt which was bolted into some primary structure.
    N1PA

  5. #45
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    By the way, here is an article about an AD on the Atlee Dodge jump seats, regarding the seat belt installation. http://blog.aopa.org/vfr/?p=1217 .........
    Even though I have BAS seats, I found the article interesting. Thanks for posting it.
    I do wonder how attaching the seat belts to the original Cessna side brackets or not running the belts through the guide could result in the rear seat pax being ejected through the windshield. Esp the brackets-- the clip-on ring intended for the outboard seat belt attach attach ring as shown is only a couple of inches above the Cessna bracket.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I'm nervous about a seat belt anchor being a "quick rivet job". I know that there are approved installations that are done this way. I have seen wrecks in which all of the rivets have sheared with the result not being to the benefit of the occupant. I would prefer a belt which was bolted into some primary structure.
    My way of describing led you to the wrong impression, my fault.

    It has been years, but when I was doing the change I had a couple things happening, including ski fittings. The rivet job was not just a rivet onto a skin. The easy part as I recall was it was all above the floor, so you did not have to be lying on the floor, arm inside a little hole cutting your arm and reaching a bucking bar at an odd angle. Everything tied to the bulkhead area just forward of the baggage door.

    Primary structure for sure.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  7. #47

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    There's no excuse for poor seatbelt anchors. Add rear seat shoulder harnesseses, too. Simple stuff.

  8. #48
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    My way of describing led you to the wrong impression, my fault.
    No fault, your remark reminded me of the seat belt attachment plate of perhaps .120" aluminum which was riveted to something. All of the many rivets which had held it in place had sheared with their tails remaining in the plate. Obviously it had been under-designed. I can not recall what type of airplane in which it had been installed. My only point being that no matter how strong that you think the parts may be, it is the fasteners and the structure to which the parts are fastened which need to have equal or greater strength requirements.
    N1PA

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    No fault, your remark reminded me of the seat belt attachment plate of perhaps .120" aluminum which was riveted to something. All of the many rivets which had held it in place had sheared with their tails remaining in the plate. Obviously it had been under-designed. I can not recall what type of airplane in which it had been installed. My only point being that no matter how strong that you think the parts may be, it is the fasteners and the structure to which the parts are fastened which need to have equal or greater strength requirements.
    These types of discussions and exchanges of information sure remind me of why I spend time on this site.

    Engineers with slide rules and computers may design this stuff, but experience in seeing how it handled use is invaluable, and is helpful to those of us wanting to modify our stuff.

    One question on rivets, do they shear from being brittle, insufficient numbers, improper installation, or the wrong fastener for the job?

    Thanks for the info!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  10. #50
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    These types of discussions and exchanges of information sure remind me of why I spend time on this site.

    Engineers with slide rules and computers may design this stuff, but experience in seeing how it handled use is invaluable, and is helpful to those of us wanting to modify our stuff.

    One question on rivets, do they shear from being brittle, insufficient numbers, improper installation, or the wrong fastener for the job?

    Thanks for the info!
    Us engineers dont use slide rules anymore although I used to make it smoke!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  11. #51
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    ...One question on rivets, do they shear from being brittle, insufficient numbers, improper installation, or the wrong fastener for the job?

    Thanks for the info!
    There are numerous inputs as to the number of, the diameter of, the alloy of, etc. the rivets. The shear strength of each rivet is not that great. Figure that the shear strength of a particular alloy is xxxx psi. The area of a 1/8" diameter rivet (Pi*1/16*sq) is a very small percentage of one square inch. The bearing strength of the sheet into which the rivet is placed is part of the equation. There are many little things to look at in any little design. The failure strength of an assembly is no greater than the weakest component in that assembly. This discussion could go on forever, but I'm sure that you get the picture.

    Also in the case of a seat belt, each fastener/belt/anchor only has to hold half of a human times the load factor because there are two ends/fasteners for each belt.
    N1PA

  12. #52
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I have done a little more research. The BAS seats use a Cessna seat rail as mounts while the Atlees use cargo rails.
    The BAS style can be removed and the original bench seat can be re-installed without hitting the rails. I believe the Atlee seats do not let you install the bench seat.

  13. #53
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Also the BAS style seat-belt kit is not needed if your original seat-belts are anchored to the plane and not the set frame.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    I have done a little more research. The BAS seats use a Cessna seat rail as mounts while the Atlees use cargo rails.
    The BAS style can be removed and the original bench seat can be re-installed without hitting the rails. I believe the Atlee seats do not let you install the bench seat.
    correct the Atlees require drilling out rivets and removing the original seat front support brackets and putting the extruded aluminum side rails in their place. At least for later models.

  15. #55
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    "Seat front support brackets".... the early model bench seats mount with a bolt into a nutplate at a bracket a little ways aft of the rear door post on each side, and a bolt into a nutplate in the floor at centerline front and rear. No "support brackets" that I'm aware of. You have to unbolt the BAS seat's side slide tubes in order to reinstall the bench seat. I imagine you could do the same with the Dodge side rails, if they're bolted in, so the deciding factor with either would be whether the bench seat & floor rails conflicted.
    Last edited by hotrod180; 12-13-2015 at 09:01 PM.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  16. #56

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    The Atlee side rails are riveted in place and not removable. There for you can not reinstall the bench seat. I just installed the Lakeview (BAS) seats in my 170. There is a thread going over at backcountrypilot.


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  17. #57
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Waterboy, That needs to be corrected......The Atlee side rails are not riveted in place. They are removable, fastened by multiple 10/32 structural countersunk screws into nutplates.

    However, the midway support bracket for the side rail and the floor mounted tracks may interfere with some other rear seats installations
    Last edited by Dave Calkins; 12-14-2015 at 01:36 PM. Reason: spelling, punctuation

  18. #58
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterboy View Post
    The Atlee side rails are riveted in place and not removable. There for you can not reinstall the bench seat. I just installed the Lakeview (BAS) seats in my 170. There is a thread going over at backcountrypilot.


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    Do you have photos? Any upholstery? Retainer tabs or bungee cord?!! Thanks

  19. #59
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I have seen a lot of BAS and Dodge jumpseats, but I have only seen one set that didn't use bungee cords to keep them in the stowed position. About the best you can do is get a matched pair of bungees, hopefully color-coordinated with your airplane.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  20. #60
    DJ's Avatar
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    I have some pictures of an install and also the diagram for the stock rear seat 1953-1962 180 but the post was denied because of "urls" of which there were none. Any advice?

  21. #61
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    I'm in the final stages of installing the FAD seats. Not a quick installation but very heavy duty and thorough. The side rails are removable as stated above. I really like the fact that the seat belts use a bulkhead (station 90) vs. other designs.

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  22. #62

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    Very nice, looks like much less fun than replacing the front seat rails
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  23. #63
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Wagon Driver, is that you????

  24. #64

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    To go along with OP's question, what do these seats tend to weigh bare bones?

  25. #65
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    My stock back seat is 25 pounds.

    From what I have seen so far, the BAS style weigh 11 pounds for a pair of them installed.
    Still waiting on word of the Atlee Dodge installed weight.

  26. #66
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    LakeVue folding seats anyone installed them?

    I have a set I bought along with the STC ect...
    Hoping to find an IA to help me install them somewhere on the Kenai Peninsula.
    All of our local folks are buried in work..
    Anyone know about how long the install takes?

    The LakeVues used to be BAS.. They are light duty and lighter weight than the Atlee Dodge types.

  27. #67
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Installation can be done in 8 - 12 hours for both seats by an experienced mechanic.
    http://lakevueaeronautics.com/id2.html

    It doesn't look difficult Alex. Most of the time appears to be removing and replacing the interior panels and floor covering to install the fastener locations. Adding the late model seat belt hardware probably takes a lot of time. You don't need that do you? It shouldn't take much time to inspect the finished job if you have a friendly local IA. Talk to him beforehand, of course.
    N1PA

  28. #68
    SJ's Avatar
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    Do you think we can merge these three C-180 rear seat threads into one?

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  29. #69

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    Here's some pictures of my Lakevue (BAS) install from a yr or 2 ago; my grandchildren and son-in law said they they were fine after a one hour flight:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129286...57673010758662
    Thanks Steve Pierce thanked for this post

  30. #70
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Easy install. You should be able to do most yourself, then get a sign off. Took me a day if I recall, most of that the rivet banging.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  31. #71
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Easy install. You should be able to do most yourself, then get a sign off. Took me a day if I recall, most of that the rivet banging.
    I hope you have that understanding with your mechanic prior to starting.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  32. #72
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    My seat belt mounts will work as they are. The couple local guys who have done folding seats have only done the Atlee versions and they used screws to mount the Brown-Line rails and not rivets.
    Install time guest-ta-mations have varied wildly...

    I have been trying to get somebody to help me install these things for a year... I am on floats all summer, and when I do my winter annuals it is always a big rush to get in and out of the IAs hangar.
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 05-10-2017 at 01:59 PM.

  33. #73
    Flying Miss Daisy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    Consider adding rear seat shoulder harnesses to whatever seats you decide on. They're a simple and inexpensive addition.

    Attachment 6311
    very nice looking interior
    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"

  34. #74
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I hope you have that understanding with your mechanic prior to starting.
    Always!

    Plan ahead with them, and do according to plan.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Do you think we can merge these three C-180 rear seat threads into one?iu

    sj
    Yes.

    Now if we just knew someone who could do it.
    "...We're fast enough to get there, But slow enough to see..."
    Fron the song "Barometer Soup". By Jimmy Buffett
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  36. #76
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffair View Post
    Yes.

    Now if we just knew someone who could do it.
    It's hard to get good help these days...

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  37. #77
    AKCRUISER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    I have a set I bought along with the STC ect...
    Hoping to find an IA to help me install them somewhere on the Kenai Peninsula.
    All of our local folks are buried in work..
    Anyone know about how long the install takes?

    The LakeVues used to be BAS.. They are light duty and lighter weight than the Atlee Dodge types.
    You try Ward in gwood?


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Thanks Alex Clark thanked for this post

  38. #78
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Well,,,,,,,After a year of begging I finally managed to find an IA who would help me install my folding seats in my C-172N.
    Three other IAs blew me off over the past few months.

    Last night we discovered that the Seaplane versions of the C-172s have 80 thousandths thick doublers along the back floor right where the seat rails need to go. Plus some extra thick underside bulkhead work underneath the floor. And they even have a couple extra inspection plates. My plane is NOTHING like the one they use in their instructions...

    I have attached some photos We are going to try making some doubler shims of the same material and use them to support the rail. Plus take out some rivets and replace them with flush rivets. Although since float flying season is here, the seats might spend yet another another season in the box. I am loosing money already this year.

    I need to buy a C-180....
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  39. #79
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So I have to ask, who does your maintenance and annual inspections? They weren't interested in installing the STC or were you wanting someone to let you help or do the work and then them sign it off?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  40. #80
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I wanted to pay somebody to do it. Or pay somebody to do it with me helping them. Or whatever worked....
    I believe that a couple of the folks who blew me off simply could not handle the thought of carrying through with the project. Regardless of how much cash I waived around.

    We have a limited number of IAs locally. There are at least 4-6 I know of who will only work on their own gear or the gear for the company who employs them. ( 135 operator/ owners )

    Then there are 3 who can be hired when the time is right and they are not buried in helping the 135 outfits. Or fixing the stuff that is messed up by the summer time hires at the larger 135 outfit.

    Only one of those three has his own hangar. He is also the best and is super booked up, seven days a week. He worked on a Beaver from out of town until 9 last night and then came over to help me for 90 minutes. He does my annuals in the dead of winter and even then we are going as fast as can be and then out the door. My 100 hr checks during the summer while on floats are a huge pain in the butt to schedule.

    There have been times when I have trailer-ed my floats for over 200 miles to have them installed. I had to fly a 100 miles a few years ago to have somebody help me install and paperwork my Power Flow exhaust.

    I need to get back to work. It looks like the seats are going back into their box and I will need to go onto my floats without them again. Had I known I sure as heck would not have removed as much of the rear liners as I did. They are old and brittle.
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    Last edited by Alex Clark; 05-23-2017 at 04:37 PM.

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