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Cessna 180 rear seat?

Cubpylut said:
Brandon,

I'm sure that more experienced Skywagon guys will chime in if I'm wrong, but I believe the pictures you posted are of an early model 180/182/185 bench seat. I'm currently working on installing an "identical" one in my 1961 185. The donor seat came from a 1962 182. Wilbur had the seat and hat shelf with the side mounting brackets when I bought the 185 from him last summer. Selkirk recommends narrowing the seat bottom by 1.5" to help installation and removal which I've done.

I like the idea of the Atlee Dodge or Lakeview Air jump seats but I just don't like how a car seat fits in those seats. Since I bought the airplane so my wife and two girls can travel with me and I'm planning on either child seat or booster seat for 3+ years yet I wanted a full bench seat for support and hopefully better comfort.

I have some pics I can share, PM me or email direct at murphypilot@yahoo.com if you would like more info.

James Smith
Click to expand...


I finally have a seat :) but man is it tight. How/where do you narrow hte seat by 1.5" I would guess you will have to narrow the back as well? I stripped all the seats down and they still fit tight as and be. I was guessing about a inch would be good but looking for some info on this. I really want to try to make this Fit! Any pics would be great!

Brandon
 
Brandon,

I'll get my picks organized and send a bunch your way. We narrowed both the seat bottom and seat back. Selkirk sent me a copy of a field approval that had basic drawings of how they narrowed the seats. In "their" installation, they only narrowed the bottom of the seat back frame. We needed to narrow the top as well to get the seat frame to clear the C pillars and also make the seat support brackets fit. We also moved the seat back about an inch to give better clearance on the B pillar. Spent tonight cleaning the seat frames so hopefully will get them painted this weekend then I'm sending the frame to Airtex so they can modify their template for the upholstery.

James
 
Folding rear seats: BAS stle vs Atlee, any real difference??

I fly my C172 on floats with the rear bench seat removed. I was thinking about installing one folding rear seat.
There is the BAS style and the Atlee Dodge style. Is there really any major difference???
I know Atlees had an AD a while back...
 
One major one:

BAS seats fold the back forward, legs release from floor, then fold against the side panel and into the little depression within. The outside of the seat remains attached to the side of the plane.

Atlee seats fold the back forward, legs (all four) release from the floor and the seat is loose- so need to be stored.

In a 1957 180A, BAS seats, one folded up I had my friend (250 lbs) in the seat, there was enough room to put a full sized keg beside him on the floor.

All the flying I did I never put cushions on the BAS seats. The fabric made it comfortable enough that it was not an issue.

Atlee's are great if you just want them out of the plane. BAS seats you need to pull one bolt or screw to remove from the plane.
 
Have been around Atlees and BAS

Atlees do also fold up. Not as tight as the BAS, HOWEVER. I have set up Atlees to have a snap that holds them folded up.

I like that the BAS come out, side track and all, by removing two bolts per seat.
 
aktango58 said:
....Atlee seats fold the back forward, legs (all four) release from the floor and the seat is loose- so need to be stored....
Click to expand...

Incorrect-- per their website, the Dodge seats each have two (inboard) legs, the outboard side is supported by the side rail, same as BAS. Folding is also the same as the BAS.
http://www.fireweedtech.com/index.p...=45:jumpseat&cid=14:cockpitinterior&Itemid=53
installation pdf:
http://www.fireweedtech.com/media/djcatalog/Jump Seat Installation.pdf
Dodge seats list at $1275 each, $2550 for the pair.

Lakevue Aero (BAS) seats list at $1195/ 1995, not much less for a single but quite a bit less for the pair.
http://lakevueaeronautics.com/id2.html

Apparently Lakevue charges extra for seatbelt attach kit, not sure about Dodge.
My C180 has BAS seats, I like them. The ceconite on the bottom & back has enough give so that (for short trips anyay) no cushions are required. The Dodge seats uses metal.
However, BAS uses Cessna seat rails, while Dodge uses Brownline cargo rails which has more /better options for cargo rings. So there are pro's & cons for each.
 
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Atlees are heavier duty and most likely weigh more. I know of hard working mission planes that have run the BAS seats for years and the pilots seem to like them but for the vastly superior cargo tie-down options I will always choose the Atlee seats. And yes they fold up nicely. Some mission guys have molded kydex side panels that allow them to fold tighter.
 
I've always wondered why not one but two different people have developed folding rear seats (neither of which is cheap), yet no one seems to have come up with anything better than a bungee cord to hold them in the stowed position. I keep thinking that I ought to get a set of blue bungees to go with the blue-n-white exterior on my 180, but at least my two red bungees match. (I've seen a lot of mismatched pairs)
 
I put the Attlee seats in several years ago,in my 55 180.perfectly happy with them,they stow well and as previous poster said hold out of way with a bungee and easy to remove totally .Have to say I've never sat in them myself but no complaints. I put a thin piece of foam in and then had a sheepskin sleeve made up,that pulls over them and is removeable/cleanable.the biggest difference between them from memory is you need to factor in the cost of the seatbelt attachment for the bas seats. For the 180/185 the later models I believe you can use the factory installed belt attachment points but the earlier models are different and you need to buy/install them.the Attlee seatbelt attaches to the rail that the seats are mounted to. That was my understanding any way.
The other difference might be in installation time and whether your engineer has done them before-if they haven't done it before it takes a lot less time to do the second seat than it does for the first one!
 
The seat belt attach kit for the Lakevue seats is $250 extra-- brackets that sandwich in between the skin & the structure on the outboard sides, and a center bracket that bolts to the floor-- so bump the total price up to $2245. You might be able to piece together the required seat belt attach parts from a salvage outfit a little cheaper, but the STC spells it out so you need the specific pieces.
 
I have the BAS seats, I like them a lot. The plane is a two place plane most of the time anyway, but when we are going to be three or more I tell people to "bring pillows to sit on".

sj
 
By the way, here is an article about an AD on the Atlee Dodge jump seats, regarding the seat belt installation.

http://blog.aopa.org/vfr/?p=1217


This is what sent me down the road asking about how the BAS style stacked up. I think there are a couple of seat belt attach options for the BAS depending on what serial number and age your plane might be.
 
I had a 57 180, and if memory is correct, the center belts attached to the bolt hole in the floor that the original rear seat back leg used, and the outside belts went to a structural hole on the sides, or a small bracket that was a quick rivet job to install
 
I'm nervous about a seat belt anchor being a "quick rivet job". I know that there are approved installations that are done this way. I have seen wrecks in which all of the rivets have sheared with the result not being to the benefit of the occupant. I would prefer a belt which was bolted into some primary structure.
 
Alex Clark said:
By the way, here is an article about an AD on the Atlee Dodge jump seats, regarding the seat belt installation. http://blog.aopa.org/vfr/?p=1217 .........
Click to expand...

Even though I have BAS seats, I found the article interesting. Thanks for posting it.
I do wonder how attaching the seat belts to the original Cessna side brackets or not running the belts through the guide could result in the rear seat pax being ejected through the windshield. Esp the brackets-- the clip-on ring intended for the outboard seat belt attach attach ring as shown is only a couple of inches above the Cessna bracket.
 
skywagon8a said:
I'm nervous about a seat belt anchor being a "quick rivet job". I know that there are approved installations that are done this way. I have seen wrecks in which all of the rivets have sheared with the result not being to the benefit of the occupant. I would prefer a belt which was bolted into some primary structure.
Click to expand...

My way of describing led you to the wrong impression, my fault.

It has been years, but when I was doing the change I had a couple things happening, including ski fittings. The rivet job was not just a rivet onto a skin. The easy part as I recall was it was all above the floor, so you did not have to be lying on the floor, arm inside a little hole cutting your arm and reaching a bucking bar at an odd angle. Everything tied to the bulkhead area just forward of the baggage door.

Primary structure for sure.
 
aktango58 said:
My way of describing led you to the wrong impression, my fault.
Click to expand...
No fault, your remark reminded me of the seat belt attachment plate of perhaps .120" aluminum which was riveted to something. All of the many rivets which had held it in place had sheared with their tails remaining in the plate. Obviously it had been under-designed. I can not recall what type of airplane in which it had been installed. My only point being that no matter how strong that you think the parts may be, it is the fasteners and the structure to which the parts are fastened which need to have equal or greater strength requirements.
 
skywagon8a said:
No fault, your remark reminded me of the seat belt attachment plate of perhaps .120" aluminum which was riveted to something. All of the many rivets which had held it in place had sheared with their tails remaining in the plate. Obviously it had been under-designed. I can not recall what type of airplane in which it had been installed. My only point being that no matter how strong that you think the parts may be, it is the fasteners and the structure to which the parts are fastened which need to have equal or greater strength requirements.
Click to expand...

These types of discussions and exchanges of information sure remind me of why I spend time on this site.

Engineers with slide rules and computers may design this stuff, but experience in seeing how it handled use is invaluable, and is helpful to those of us wanting to modify our stuff.

One question on rivets, do they shear from being brittle, insufficient numbers, improper installation, or the wrong fastener for the job?

Thanks for the info!
 
aktango58 said:
These types of discussions and exchanges of information sure remind me of why I spend time on this site.

Engineers with slide rules and computers may design this stuff, but experience in seeing how it handled use is invaluable, and is helpful to those of us wanting to modify our stuff.

One question on rivets, do they shear from being brittle, insufficient numbers, improper installation, or the wrong fastener for the job?

Thanks for the info!
Click to expand...

Us engineers dont use slide rules anymore although I used to make it smoke!
 
aktango58 said:
...One question on rivets, do they shear from being brittle, insufficient numbers, improper installation, or the wrong fastener for the job?

Thanks for the info!
Click to expand...
There are numerous inputs as to the number of, the diameter of, the alloy of, etc. the rivets. The shear strength of each rivet is not that great. Figure that the shear strength of a particular alloy is xxxx psi. The area of a 1/8" diameter rivet (Pi*1/16*sq) is a very small percentage of one square inch. The bearing strength of the sheet into which the rivet is placed is part of the equation. There are many little things to look at in any little design. The failure strength of an assembly is no greater than the weakest component in that assembly. This discussion could go on forever, but I'm sure that you get the picture.

Also in the case of a seat belt, each fastener/belt/anchor only has to hold half of a human times the load factor because there are two ends/fasteners for each belt.
 
I have done a little more research. The BAS seats use a Cessna seat rail as mounts while the Atlees use cargo rails.
The BAS style can be removed and the original bench seat can be re-installed without hitting the rails. I believe the Atlee seats do not let you install the bench seat.
 
Also the BAS style seat-belt kit is not needed if your original seat-belts are anchored to the plane and not the set frame.
 
Alex Clark said:
I have done a little more research. The BAS seats use a Cessna seat rail as mounts while the Atlees use cargo rails.
The BAS style can be removed and the original bench seat can be re-installed without hitting the rails. I believe the Atlee seats do not let you install the bench seat.
Click to expand...

correct the Atlees require drilling out rivets and removing the original seat front support brackets and putting the extruded aluminum side rails in their place. At least for later models.
 
"Seat front support brackets".... the early model bench seats mount with a bolt into a nutplate at a bracket a little ways aft of the rear door post on each side, and a bolt into a nutplate in the floor at centerline front and rear. No "support brackets" that I'm aware of. You have to unbolt the BAS seat's side slide tubes in order to reinstall the bench seat. I imagine you could do the same with the Dodge side rails, if they're bolted in, so the deciding factor with either would be whether the bench seat & floor rails conflicted.
 
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The Atlee side rails are riveted in place and not removable. There for you can not reinstall the bench seat. I just installed the Lakeview (BAS) seats in my 170. There is a thread going over at backcountrypilot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Waterboy, That needs to be corrected......The Atlee side rails are not riveted in place. They are removable, fastened by multiple 10/32 structural countersunk screws into nutplates.

However, the midway support bracket for the side rail and the floor mounted tracks may interfere with some other rear seats installations
 
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Waterboy said:
The Atlee side rails are riveted in place and not removable. There for you can not reinstall the bench seat. I just installed the Lakeview (BAS) seats in my 170. There is a thread going over at backcountrypilot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Do you have photos? Any upholstery? Retainer tabs or bungee cord?!! Thanks
 
I have seen a lot of BAS and Dodge jumpseats, but I have only seen one set that didn't use bungee cords to keep them in the stowed position. About the best you can do is get a matched pair of bungees, hopefully color-coordinated with your airplane.
 
I have some pictures of an install and also the diagram for the stock rear seat 1953-1962 180 but the post was denied because of "urls" of which there were none. Any advice?
 
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