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Thread: Wing Tip Shape Summary

  1. #81
    DW's Avatar
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    I had mine separate from the flaps on off any time I wanted them...I would get maybe 3 to 5 slower if I was doing straight in approaches but working it in around trees in tight turns just didn't like the feel..another thing is I think you lose a little in aileron authority because of the springs in the system.
    my complete system was about 4 1/2 lbs

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW View Post
    I had mine separate from the flaps on off any time I wanted them...I would get maybe 3 to 5 slower if I was doing straight in approaches but working it in around trees in tight turns just didn't like the feel..another thing is I think you lose a little in aileron authority because of the springs in the system.
    my complete system was about 4 1/2 lbs
    Springs? I am not familiar with a drooping system which incorporates springs. I am familiar with four different drooping systems, none of which have any springs. What type of airplane do you have this on?
    N1PA

  3. #83
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    On a super cub the springs hold tension on the pulley

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW View Post
    On a super cub the springs hold tension on the pulley
    That's a system of which I am not familiar. Is there any possibility that the springs could be eliminated and still have a suitable drooping system?
    N1PA

  5. #85
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    I've looked a several systems and all had springs to hold tension on an idler pulley in the top of the cabin so I'm not familiar with any other type. Would like to see some pics or drawings.

  6. #86
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Only one of the four that I mentioned is in a Super Cub. I can not remember the details of the Cub, though I do not think that it had any springs. It was connected to the flap handle. I havn't seen that plane for a while, so it will be difficult to verify.
    N1PA

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Only one of the four that I mentioned is in a Super Cub. I can not remember the details of the Cub, though I do not think that it had any springs. It was connected to the flap handle. I havn't seen that plane for a while, so it will be difficult to verify.
    If it was connected to the flap handle then there are two springs in the system right there. I believe they are also referring to a system where the ailerons droop independantly of any flap setting.

  8. #88
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wronghand View Post
    If it was connected to the flap handle then there are two springs in the system right there. I believe they are also referring to a system where the ailerons droop independantly of any flap setting.
    Not the flaps. The flap handle.
    N1PA

  9. #89

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    Dakota tips. They slant cleanly up and out finishing rounded square. I previously had madras droop tips, and what i noticed most upon changing is much improved field of view, as well as i believe better aerilon response. Im pretty new at it, so color my opinion so.

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  10. #90

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    Thanks Charley for the quick reply. I just finished installing the Wag-Aero tips what's a little disappointed with fit. The install required the judicious heat gun. As there were big gaps on the bottom of the tip and still has some gaps. I probably should be sending the issue to Wag-Aero. I would understand If the airfoil was non-standard but the cub airfoil has been around for some time. I have not flown the plane yet with the new tips, be interested on how they perform.

  11. #91
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    In regards to the poor fit of the Wag tip, you would think after selling the same wing tip for 36 years they would have fixed their mold. Its the kind of quality you come to expect from them. Those tips are pricey for something that "almost fits".

  12. #92

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    One would think so. Flew the cub, disappointed in the handling, may not be just the tips the cub has no roll stability it did not have much before with the droop tips but better than what it has now. I suspect that the fact that I have no dihedral is the major problem. When one stretches the string from tip to tip and it lays flat, that's not good.§

  13. #93

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    Question, using the Dakota tips on stock PA 18 wing, however building as an experimental, can you cut the wing and shorten it to the aileron, or is it best to replace the tip rips with full length ribs and extend the wing? Then if you do extend the wing, and want to extend the aileron, how do you extend the stock aileron, or do you have to build new ones? The tips I bought used with no instructions, just the fiberglass tip and full size solid wood rib that the tip screws to. The tips are light, but the solid wood end rib is very heavy. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

  14. #94
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    The Dakota Cub wing tips are designed to attach to a full rib. You can buy a metal rib to attach them to if you prefer. I might not be following all of your questions full, but I do remember how the tip is designed to be attached and hopefully that helps.

    DCA does have instructions for the wing tip installation. I don't see them listed on the website currently (they might be getting updated) but if you give them a call they can email you the instructions.
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.

  15. #95

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    how about the north star raked wingtips, any experience?
    ww w.customflightltd

  16. #96
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    Hi. I am bumping this thread to see if any new thought juices have flowed on the topic since 2014.

    Also, I will post photos in a couple days of a Cub tip shape I had never seen before. It is purported to be a John W. Thorp installation associated possibly with STC SA2490WE, of which I can find no record.

    It looks like an original Cub tip bow at the front that transforms to a squared tip at the trailing edge. Aileron span appears to be stock.

    Anyone seen this before? Thanks for any replies. This happens to be on a -14 refurbed in Fairbanks in 2004.

    Also, can someone find Jerry Burrs discussion and thread of wing tip shapes and link it here? I and the “search” function seem to speak different languages, but I will give it a try. d
    Last edited by Dave Calkins; 10-23-2019 at 02:14 PM.
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  17. #97
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Wasn't this PA-14 recently for sale with the note the tips had to be removed for some reason? It used to be at Bradley's I believe and I recall seeing it. The idea of the tip design was the length of the wing's rear determined the best lift, something like the Britten-Norman Islander's tips but not upturned just flat.

    Gary
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  18. #98
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Gary, yes, that -14, and tip shape looks like the Islander without upsweep.

    No joy with search function. I found a link to Jerry Burrs discussion, but was redirected to sc.org homepage several tries.

    Any help is appreciated. Both with the search and also the referenced John Thorp STC

    THANKS. d
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  19. #99
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Do the CD 337 records on file describe the tip mod? They used to just say installed blah blah. I also recall reading about that tip design years ago but not sure where. Thorp's design? Have a look at them and the T-18 appears similar.

    Where did you get the STC#? If it's no longer active can the issuing FAA office provide something like ICA or prints?

    What's the concern now? Rear spar loading or simply no documentation of a benign design? The plane I saw was flying earlier than 2004 - as I recall.

    Gary

  20. #100
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    This is a NorthStar home built... The wing tip design is what I think you are describing... I do not know of any STC that would approve this style tip in a Cub series...

    Brian


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  21. #101
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    Gary, the 337 record for this aircraft reads something like “...reference STC SA2490WE. Installed 0-360 etc etc and modified wing tips in accordance with John w Thorp installation instructions dated etc etc...”

    no field approval in that block. IA approved

    I cannot find anything, and havent checked with fsdo yet. Figurd I would rely on sc.org local knowledge as an easy first step

    Brian, it is similar to Northstar, but seems Piper bow at front and at greatest point of span runs straight back. Northstar appears to “sweep” for the whole curve
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  22. #102
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Gary, the 337 record for this aircraft reads something like “...reference STC SA2490WE. Installed 0-360 etc etc and modified wing tips in accordance with John w Thorp installation instructions dated etc etc...”

    no field approval in that block. IA approved
    Well that's how things used to be done in my experience as an owner non-A&P who kept the paperwork. Someone now must have taken an issue with the alteration. Who did the 337 and in what year? - no need for exact name here - maybe airport or town/State location? Sometimes those signing the form or the owner at that time are still available for a short talk or may have paperwork filed away. I wonder if the STC's issuing FAA regional office can be asked like I mentioned earlier? If you can confirm compliance with the installation instructions that might help.

    Gary

  23. #103

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    I am not a full time mechanic, and yet I see IA approved major alterations all the time. I corrected four this year alone. A lot of IAs think they can approve stuff by filling out a 337.

    One guy even approved a Whirlwind prop on an old Chief!

  24. #104
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    I didn’t see Aviat Husky upsweep tips. Also the J-3 Float tips that are square plywood on the tip. Here is a pic of my Husky.Click image for larger version. 

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  25. #105
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  26. #106
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    thanks for your replies guys.

    Seattle ACO called me this morning and are doing what they can to make sense of that STC SA2480WE. MAYBE ITS A TYPO

  27. #107
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    Maybe Charly at Crosswinds has seen something similar before?

    Gary

  28. #108
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    a couple of photos
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  29. #109
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Has someone complained about the tips? Looks good from here.

    Gary
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  30. #110
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    Gary. thats my thought. They look great!

    the assembled plane is not mine
    the wings on the trailer are.

    The workmanship is beautiful and if I can document them I will fly em.

    I will attempt to contact the other plane’s owner to see about documentation. My documentation seems bogus or has a typographical error on the 337. Seattle ACO is also on task and communicative, which is heartening!

  31. #111
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    Dave those look very nice. Hopefully you can get the paper squared away. One of our fellow members is fixing up a J-3 on floats which is needing wing tip repair. This looks like it would be a nice improvement for him if possible. Are the spars still tapered as the original?
    N1PA

  32. #112
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    So there's a couple of examples at least one of which has successfully flown and proven the concept. Was there a one-time or multi approval? You noted an STC (Thorp?) which has since been withdrawn. Maybe the ACO can support the alteration. Is there adequate inspection access to document the components - if so are they the same for both sets?

    As I mentioned I'd seen a plane with them here (Fairbanks-North Pole) years ago. That one flying used to be in McGrath and Cordova from the number.

    Can't be structurally that much different than the common extensions that are supported and proven.

    Gary

  33. #113
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    Guys....Cheers and Thanks to the Seattle Aircraft Certification Office.

    This was a field approved alteration and I know the mechanic and the ASI that signed the approval. Many other Anchorage area folks will know them as well.

    Seattle ACO provided this info and I have a clear direction for properly documenting the alteration.

    I will move forward with Anchorage FSDO on this and report back as to performance of this style tip.

    Pete.....the front spar and leading edge are as original Piper round tips. The new tip bow is aluminum tube. The rear spar has a spliced extension. The trailing edge is folded aluminum.
    Last edited by Dave Calkins; 11-09-2019 at 05:05 PM.
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  34. #114
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Was the overall span increased beyond the stock wing or just the trailing edge? Was/is there an STC (STC SA2490WE) or was that just a reference to a particular "style" of tip?

    Gary

  35. #115
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Gary. the span really doesnt appear to be increased. I have not measured, but it is very close to stock-appearing in span.

    STC SA2490WE does not come up.

    In the records the verbiage......”...reference STC SA2480WE, Installation of Lycoming O-360...........blah blah blah......and modified wingtips in accordance with John W Thorp Installation Instructions.....”

    so, It is a laundry list 337 with less than proper documentation. The IA before I owned this wasn’t buying it......so I got lucky to acquire this bird.
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  36. #116

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    There is one flat-bottomed ultralight wing that will almost hang with the undercambered Quicksilver types: Kolb. Homer Kolb put a lot of effort into testing tips, and he wound up with something like this, except the tip bow stays down in the bottom surface plane. Lightest way to put the span where it counts. Simple radius up front and a straight run back.
    What's a go-around?
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  37. #117
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    The Kolb ultralight designs are enduring and seem to hold their value

    I had always thought they would be super neat if I lived in warm climate

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    ….Cheers and Thanks to the Seattle Aircraft Certification Office.
    This was a field approved alteration and I know the mechanic and the ASI that signed the approval. Many other Anchorage area folks will know them as well.
    Seattle ACO provided this info and I have a clear direction for properly documenting the alteration. …...
    I'm glad you had a good interaction with the SEA ACO.
    We've had less than stellar results from our man at the SEA FSDO.
    Are they really so busy that a simple field approval has to take 10 months?
    (so far, that is-- it's getting closer but not approved yet!)
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  39. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    There is one flat-bottomed ultralight wing that will almost hang with the undercambered Quicksilver types: Kolb. Homer Kolb put a lot of effort into testing tips, and he wound up with something like this, except the tip bow stays down in the bottom surface plane. Lightest way to put the span where it counts. Simple radius up front and a straight run back.
    One story that made the rounds back in the ultralight days, was the 7:5016 airfoil on the Quick. Called that as it was derived from bending the 1/2" tubing using a pickup truck tire that size. NOT a knock, it worked!

  40. #120

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    I did my pa-12 a couple of years ago..., it had Madras tips that I removed (still have 'em). I used Ron's Night and Day STC to install long flaps and move the ailerons out. I bought a set of Super Cub ailerons with flap hangars from Dakota. There is no gap between the aileron tip and wing tip. The tips I got from Ron are Carbon Fiber and very light. It all came together real well.
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