Olibuilt 's New Cub project

[frequent_flyer]

I would love to fabricate a simple audio "Check Gear- Check Gear" warning that would be activated when flaps are down.

If you have GPS and a good terrain database it would be possible to develop a system that knows the aircraft is low over water with flaps down or low over land with flaps down. The system would then know if wheel should be up or down and could alert for an incorrect configuration.

I'm actually surprised no one has developed such a system and perhaps they have. Perhaps they were discouraged by the problem of making low approaches over land surrounding the intended water surface.

Accident history shows pilots are adept at ignoring loud and prominent audio alerting so not convinced that either the simple system you proposed , or the more complex one I suggested, would guarantee you will never land an amphip with the wrong gear configuration.

[mvivion]

Follow Pete’s advice, for sure. But I add one more thing: Every amphib I’ve ever flown had mirrors mounted out on the struts, or the bottom of the wing, located such that the pilot could visualize theACTUAL position of the gear. THAT is something you also MUST do prior to every landing……right after you repeat Pete’s mantra.

Why? Because this forces you to turn your head, focus on that little mirror, and concentrate to verify the actual position of the gear…all four of them.

One of the reasons that pilots fail in the use of gear warning systems (and, the pilots, not the systems fail) is that the lights, bells, whistles, etc all become rote, as can the spoken mantra. It’s always a busy time in the cockpit, so it’s easy to say the words automatically, to put your hand on the gear lever, but not THINK about its actual position, etc, etc.

BUT, combining that “speech” with then having to turn your head, find the mirror, then visualize and VERIFY the actual position of the gear, all four, requires specific action…..you have to look, focus and THINK.

I see what looks like mirrors on your struts……USE them. If those aren’t mirrors, mount some…..and use them.

I was checked out in a Beaver by Jack Corey. That Beaver had no gear indicator, and the gear position selector could be in any position, but that was meaningless, because you then had to manually pump the gear to the selected position.

But that airplane had mirrors, so, prior to every landing, I’d recite the mantra, then look out the window and either verify there were NO gears in view, or all four. I’d actually count them.

When we were done with that checkout, Jack commented: You seem pretty paranoid about the position of that landing gear during landings. I agreed that I was. Jack’s reply: “Don’t ever lose that paranoia.”

Good advice.

MTV

[RaisedByWolves]

I combine what Pete and mtv say. This is a land landing the gear is down. I only have a hand pump, I touch the selector, for land, give the handle a pump, and look out. One two three four look at them. Same for water, every time, even if you took off and come back in to land in the water.


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[cubdriver2]

My two icons stickers by gear lever would be a truck for land operations and a boat for water

Glenn

[skywagon8a]

If you have GPS and a good terrain database it would be possible to develop a system that knows the aircraft is low over water with flaps down or low over land with flaps down. The system would then know if wheel should be up or down and could alert for an incorrect configuration.

I respect your abilities with electronics and attention to details. Lets not make things more complicated for Oli than necessary. How would your proposed system work if the pilot decided to land with the flaps up? See, there is always something else to consider. Best to keep it as simple as possible.

[skywagon8a]

I have no Idea what procedures this pilot was following nor what he was thinking. But I do know what he did not do. He did not follow the procedure which I outlined above. And he most certainly did not announce out loud
THIS IS A WATER LANDING. THE GEAR IS UP



Fortunately he is there sitting on the bottom of his floats.

Notice how quickly it came to a stop in a very short distance.

[LMartin]

Was that the one that the little block object flying out through the window was a camera? Maybe he had time to take a breathe before the cabin filled with water.


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[Olibuilt]

I was thinking a simple "Check Gear" audio reminder would not hurt?

From now on I will do the routine stated above. Thanks



Floats are equipped with gear indicators on the floats. I also have gear light in the dash.

I've placed big mirrors to see the mains and smaller one to see the front wheels:

[mvivion]

I have no Idea what procedures this pilot was following nor what he was thinking. But I do know what he did not do. He did not follow the procedure which I outlined above. And he most certainly did not announce out loud
THIS IS A WATER LANDING. THE GEAR IS UP



Fortunately he is there sitting on the bottom of his floats.

Notice how quickly it came to a stop in a very short distance.

Pete,

Unfortunately, we’ll never know precisely what happened there. The two “older” gents in that plane left town right after, and weren’t talking. This happened on a beautiful late evening in the midnight sun. It is known that they’d had a very long flying day that day, so fatigue was certainly a possibility. The thing that came through the windshield was indeed a video camera. That illustrates just how severe the deceleration is in one of these deals.

But the fact that the passenger was video taping the landing also suggests distraction for the pilot. Distraction was a significant factor in several of these cases that I’m familiar with.

Which brings up another procedure that can help prevent this: Maintaining a sterile cockpit within some distance of a landing site. I’ve used that procedure for years, and it’s part of my pre-takeoff passenger safety briefing. The advent of the “pilot isolate” function on modern intercoms helps with this, but I don’t want anyone distracting me when I’m evaluating a landing site, and certainly not while on final. I’d bet these guys were having a conversation as they approached to land.

And, BTW, the airplane was equipped with a gear warning system, though I’m not sure specifics. The fact that you can push a button to silence many of these…..

The camera was recovered by a diver, but apparently shed no light on the accident.

MTV

[skywagon8a]

And, BTW, the airplane was equipped with a gear warning system, though I’m not sure specifics. The fact that you can push a button to silence many of these…..
MTV

One look and we can identify the make of the floats. With that it is safe to assume also the make of the warning system which is airspeed activated and is adjustable for the chosen speed. Also the audio and visual warning is silenced by pushing a button. I've flown in an airplane equipped with this system which was set at a slightly high speed. It kept going off and being reset, very distractive in my view. Actually was as distractive as a passenger violating the quiet cockpit rule while landing.

[frequent_flyer]

I respect your abilities with electronics and attention to details. Lets not make things more complicated for Oli than necessary. How would your proposed system work if the pilot decided to land with the flaps up? See, there is always something else to consider. Best to keep it as simple as possible.

The system requirements were set in post 678. It was not my proposal that the gear alert system should be based on flap position. My preference would be to use all the available information and, if a terrain database was available, height above surface could an input to the logic.

A brief research of available gear warning systems found this one -

https://www.wipaire.com/wipline-floa...gear-advisory/

[skywagon8a]

I was thinking a simple "Check Gear" audio reminder would not hurt?

From now on I will do the routine stated above. Thanks

If you want a simple warning without a lot of fancy do-dads try a red light on top of the instrument panel next to the gear lights. Activate it with a switch connected to the throttle. Adjust it so that it lights at a power setting which is just a bit too high for a landing. Wire in an automotive flasher to make the light blink. I had a Swift which had a warning system like this. No talking, just a flashing light.

The issue I see with this is your slats. With the slats you may drag it in with power never reducing the power until you land, which could be too late to help you.

For now at least, just skip any extra warnings and develop a good learned consistent procedure which always works for you.

[skywagon8a]

The system requirements were set in post 678. It was not my proposal that the gear alert system should be based on flap position. My preference would be to use all the available information and, if a terrain data was available, height above surface could an input to the logic.

A brief research of available gear warning systems found this one -

https://www.wipaire.com/wipline-floa...gear-advisory/

That's the system which was in the airplane that flipped in the video.

[LMartin]

Yeah, there Hass to be a good setting for those. I hate both having them yapping at me all the time while fly slow in a cub (cb) and when they’re set so slow that about 1 foot before touchdown on pavement, the creepy man voice suddenly announces…”Gear down…”


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[mvivion]

That's the system which was in the airplane that flipped in the video.

Pete,

Those are indeed Wip floats, but this accident happened looooong before Wip came out with the laser gear warning system. I’ve flown those older Wip 3730 amphibs and the gear warning system that came with them was a very simple lights and audible warning that was silenced with a button.

The laser warning system is an interesting system, but still has limitations. I’ve landed seaplanes a LOT where i needed/wanted to touch down close to shore, in which case, the laser would detect land right up till near the touch. By the time it detected water and alerted, it’d be too late.

Frankly, the human is clearly the weak link when it comes to amphibs. That said a LOT of professional pilots have flown them for millions of landings safely. It can be done, but not with gadgets.

it’s the gray matter twixt the ears that counts.

MTV

[LMartin]

FireBosses have the laser systems. We spent a lot of time working on them. Computers make life easier when they’re working, but still require an aware human brain to detect frequent malfunctions.


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[wireweinie]

If you have GPS and a good terrain database it would be possible to develop a system that knows the aircraft is low over water with flaps down or low over land with flaps down. The system would then know if wheel should be up or down and could alert for an incorrect configuration.

I'm actually surprised no one has developed such a system and perhaps they have. Perhaps they were discouraged by the problem of making low approaches over land surrounding the intended water surface.

Water doesn't stay in the same place. Lakes rise and fall and streams shift. What was water a few weeks ago may be dirt now, or vice versa.

Web

[mvivion]

Water doesn't stay in the same place. Lakes rise and fall and streams shift. What was water a few weeks ago may be dirt now, or vice versa.

Web

Absolutely true. In Interior Alaska, there are many lakes that literally go dry without any surface water, yet a year or two later will be plenty deep to land a seaplane. Many other places on planet Earth do the same.

MTV

[Olibuilt]

I'm still convince a audio "Check Gear- Check Gear" friendly reminder would be helpful for me.

I always use 35* or more flaps on landings and takeoffs. My Flightcom IISX 2-Place Portable Intercom is next to my flap handle.

I would love to have a simple way to plug a small 12v speech module to the intercom input, triggered by the flap handle position.



something like this ?

edit: found a better one I think

http://4 Buttons Triggered MP3 Playe...erminal Blocks








Anybody around willing to help?

[frequent_flyer]

The ISD1820 may be suitable for your project. Some eBay outlets are showing 5 for under $20. You would also need an inexpensive voltage regulator or run it from a battery pack or perhaps a USB charge port.

[Mr. Ed]

Clamar does sell a gear advisory system that’s airspeed driven but you can also add a flap position. The only thing wrong with it is it’s about $1500. Mirrors and good habit patterns are cheaper.

[Olibuilt]

I have install the little “gear reminder” mp3 player I have posted earlier. Very easy to setup. Works good with my flap handle.

I now have about 15 hrs on the floats. Brakes are strong for runway operation. No front wheel shimmy yet.

6 degree rigging is working perfect for me. I think I could take another degree without trouble, but will stay at 6 for now.

[farm_boy252]

Nice! All the lakes and rivers are still frozen where im at!

[skywagon8a]

Oli, What is your indicated cruise speed on these floats? At what rpm? What was the speed on wheels?

[Olibuilt]

Oli, What is your indicated cruise speed on these floats? At what rpm? What was the speed on wheels?

A little faster on floats, but About 85mph @ 2450rpm on wheels, skis or floats.

I think the slats and Catto 86x36 prop are not helping me going fast…

[Olibuilt]

So good to be back on floats!


Airplane is going strong with the amphibs added weight.

Still have not try my 10’ PortaBote on the spreader bar.


500 lbs, 55 deg, 1000asl, little wind
this is the first outside video I have:

[skywagon8a]

If you start the take off with some flaps down, it will get on the step quicker. The prop blast over the flaps provides some lift.

[supercrow]

My flaps are oversize in both chord and length. And if I need to in a tight spot, I will usually Pull 20 or 30° of flaps initially. It not only gets me onto the step faster, but I think it holds me back a little in distance, which is good. I’ll take them off as it rolls on to the step to maximize acceleration. Then after a few seconds will apply again for lift off.