Olibuilt 's New Cub project

**Olibuilt** · 12-30-2011, 08:20 PM

I'm starting a new experimental Cub. I'm really looking for some good advices please.... ??What would you change for a new project??My plan is to built a moderate nose heavy Cub and moving my survival kit in the tail for ballast. Third seat ready without survival kit in the tail... I want a lightweight performer when empty (not the lightest) but a hauling workhorse when loaded.... Lightweight where I can (-) but practical (+)my plans:-200+hp with Catto --full, simple, lightweight electrical no lights - basic instruments (battery at the firewall, 8amp B&C, small starter)-electric trim, no trim indicator, overhead flaps --2 doors for floats +, throttle and light brakes front only --partial composite floors, no interior, titanium firerwall, --front skylight 0.080 or less +, aluminium doors -, light boot cowl and cowl --no fabric lower rear fuselage, no rear D windows -, extended upper baggage to the tail + (GotRocks idea)-simple kydex baggage -, kydex lower extended exterior baggage (just the floor section)-???-Stock airfoil ribs (already have a few Dakota)-extended flaps to fuselage-stock rudder from the wreckThings really not sure.... But really not there yet...-square or round tips ??-stock or extended flaps chord ??-stock or extended ailerons chord ??-stock wing span or extended ??-oversize or stock elevator ??

**Olibuilt** · 12-30-2011, 08:21 PM

The real question for now is:

Was planning lowering the engine a inch or more for visibility...?? So lowering the firewall and boot cowl too ??

What do you think?

**8GCBC** · 12-30-2011, 08:28 PM

Don't be fooled with Lycoming fuel injection. Stay Carburetor only.

**skywagon8a** · 12-31-2011, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by 8GCBC

Don't be fooled with Lycoming fuel injection. Stay Carburetor only.

8GCBC, Please clarify your statement. Something has formed your opinion. I have many hours behind a Lycoming fuel injection with absolutely no problems once I learned the proper starting procedure. They are more fuel efficient than a carburetor. In fact, I am installing one in my experimental Cub.

**8GCBC** · 12-31-2011, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by skywagon8a

8GCBC, Please clarify your statement. Something has formed your opinion. I have many hours behind a Lycoming fuel injection with absolutely no problems once I learned the proper starting procedure. They are more fuel efficient than a carburetor. In fact, I am installing one in my experimental Cub.

Hi Skywagon8a:

My main concern is the disruption of fuel flow at the injectors from carbon deposites. This fuel flow disruption could create a very cold clylinder or very hot cylinder depending on the arbitrary mixture that would occur. I like self cleaning injectors.

I know there is scheduled maintenance and Hoppies Gun cleaner and all that, But I would not purchase the option again and deal with the claimed "less" HP of a carburetor.

I DO NOT WANT TO Pull an injector and clean it at sunset standing on my floats, a lot of little things could fall in the water. For bush flying my opinion is carb only, at my fiscal and mechanical abilities.

Also, the price is very high to purchase, overhauls get really costly too. I can "Do" an OH on a carb if I have to.

Thank you letting me rag on this.

--8GCBC

**dalec** · 12-31-2011, 12:58 PM

Olibuilt

My Cub has extended wings & Dakota Cub tips without the extended ailerons. I like the extended wing it flies slow, but I would never have them again without extending the ailerons. The roll rate is not what it should be and it can be a hand full in high wind, I am currently looking into extending the ailerons. We installed the Denso alternator and lightweight starter along with the atlee under seat battery.

If I was going to do a new experimental, I would use dynon's Flight Deck D-180 with the remote compass, a Garmin portable GPS of your choice and a com radio. This gives you a complete, lightweight panel that is simple to wire and very complete. I currently have a stock 56 cub panel with a 496 garmin and an ICOM A200. I like the short panel and you could get all of the above to fit into the short panel with room for all your electrical, throttle and mixture. Up here I would wan the Aveo LED lights and strobes, too much traffic and i want to be seen.

DW · 12-31-2011, 01:19 PM

No need to lower the firewall and boot cowl, I lowerd my engine 1" and used a selkirk carbon fiber cowl and raised the seat 1"

**dalec** · 12-31-2011, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by DW

No need to lower the firewall and boot cowl, I lowerd my engine 1" and used a selkirk carbon fiber cowl and raised the seat 1"

DW

Was there any reason other than increased visibility for lowering your engine?

**aktango58** · 12-31-2011, 01:53 PM

Dale,

In DW's 'hood', one would usually lower the gear and put smaller tires...

DW chose a more practical selection by lowering the engine before hanging the fuzzy dice in the windshield

**8GCBC** · 12-31-2011, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by aktango58

...more practical selection by lowering the engine before hanging the fuzzy dice in the windshield

Don't for get the TEN inch speakers, and the pipe.

**dalec** · 12-31-2011, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by aktango58

Dale,

In DW's 'hood', one would usually lower the gear and put smaller tires...

DW chose a more practical selection by lowering the engine before hanging the fuzzy dice in the windshield

George, We all know DW is a "slave to fashion" I was just wondering about his other motivations?

BTW... rather than drive the jetboat to Atlin, want to hitch a ride?

**Bugs66** · 12-31-2011, 04:01 PM

Keep in mind that if you want to run mogas (not sure if good for your 200hp compressions), you might want to research if ok with fuel injection. I know none of the STC's allow fuel injection. Not to say you can't with experimental but I would research what is needed to make fuel injection ok with mogas.

**Bill Rusk** · 12-31-2011, 05:15 PM

If you lower the engine you can compensate for the raised nose look from installing the thrust line. This allows for the smooth, straight, lightly descending line from the windscreen to the nosebowl.

Bill

**Olibuilt** · 12-31-2011, 10:20 PM

Was thinking lowering the engine for visibility when landing. Homemade engine mount was the plan. Maybe custom cowl.... Maybe.... Anyway, with tall tires, thrustline engine mount and tall gear, prop clearence would be ok.

Ok, firewall at the stock location.

?? What titanium tickness should I use for the firewall fabrication ??

Next steps will be:
-Firewall
-Boot cowl
-floors
-brakes
-baggage aera
-bird cage
-doors

DW · 12-31-2011, 10:32 PM

Bill is correct I had the thrustline built into the motor mount and by lowering it I kept the cub lines more stock looking, and with the selkirk cowl and raising the seat 1" I can see over the nose while taxiing. I also moved the engine back 1". George your thinking a little futher south then my place for fuzzy dice but I have no trouble seeing around the pot leaf air freshener.

Your adding a lot of weight with that second door how many time will you need to dock on that side compared to carrying that weight all the time.

**Olibuilt** · 12-31-2011, 11:10 PM

I dont think the second door will had that much weight. Tubing for the fuselage is maybe half a pound more. Will try to fabriacte them with half a inch aluminium square tubing max.

2 doors are a must for me, for docking, but mostly for loading-unloading at the camp.

**8GCBC** · 12-31-2011, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Olibuilt

I dont think the second door will had that much weight. Tubing for the fuselage is maybe half a pound more. Will try to fabriacte them with half a inch aluminium square tubing max.

2 doors are a must for me, for docking, but mostly for loading-unloading at the camp.

I used to think (2) doors on a seaplane was a must. Just put a crossover wire instead (light, easy). It worked on the Cub I flew and the Scout, I forgot about the passion for the "other hand door".

Even the Wipaire guys, Charley & Bob have crossover wires on their PA-18s. How much seaplane time do you have? The Cub is so small you can get over to other side really fast with a crossover wire.

Think small when thinking "Cub"

**cubdriver2** · 12-31-2011, 11:48 PM

First 2 planes that I flew floats on were a Pa12 and a Champ and if you have the luxury of only doing docks or a beach then one door is fine, but I like to play in the remote parts around here and the trees grow out over the water at a 45* angle or less and there is not a beach to be seen for 5 miles. Rock outcroppings or blown down trees are all you can find sometimes, and the wing is only about 2' from hitting a branch or tree trunk as the front of the float touches the rock and the scramble out the door where milliseconds may be all you have to go home with the same LE you came with. I not only like 2 doors but I have a paddle on eack side. I'm glad that I play in a 72 year old plane that's no beauty queen, because if I had a $100,000 + floatplane I would never go to the same playground. If I ever build my Pa11 dream floatplane it will have 2 doors.

Glenn

**8GCBC** · 12-31-2011, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by cubdriver2

First 2 planes that I flew floats on were a Pa12 and a Champ and if you have the luxury of only doing docks or a beach then one door is fine, but I like to play in the remote parts around here and the trees grow out over the water at a 45* angle or less and there is not a beach to be seen for 5 miles. Rock outcroppings or blown down trees are all you can find sometimes, and the wing is only about 2' from hitting a branch or tree trunk as the front of the float touches the rock and the scramble out the door where milliseconds may be all you have to go home with the same LE you came with. I not only like 2 doors but I have a paddle on eack side. I'm glad that I play in a 72 year old plane that's no beauty queen, because if I had a $100,000 + floatplane I would never go to the same playground. If I ever build my Pa11 dream floatplane it will have 2 doors.

Glenn

Well said. Good point, everybody (and Cub) has a different mission! BTW check out Aerocet for the rough stuff!

**Olibuilt** · 01-01-2012, 12:40 AM

It's like having a electric system or armstrong starter... Some ''mods'' are a must for my type of flying.

DW, the selkirk carbon fiber cowl is real nice!!

?? What titanium tickness should I use for the firewall fabrication ??

**Bill Rusk** · 01-01-2012, 12:52 AM

Titanium is not very easy to work. You might consider ordering a titanium firewall from Atlee Dodge. It is predrilled and ready to go. Saves 2 pounds over a stock firewall.

Bill

**C-FIJK** · 01-01-2012, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by 8GCBC

Don't be fooled with Lycoming fuel injection. Stay Carburetor only.

Well yes its more work but no carb ice and lots of power I liked it

**C-FIJK** · 01-01-2012, 01:08 AM

Olie i have one question for you what happend to the cub you bought last year ?

And yes i agree with the above io-360 does not like mo gas

**8GCBC** · 01-01-2012, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Olibuilt

It's like having a electric system or armstrong starter... Some ''mods'' are a must for my type of flying.
?? What titanium tickness should I use for the firewall fabrication ??

Alunimun rivets will melt before the Ti-6-4. If you decide to use them. Monel (or SS) would be my choice for rivets.

**8GCBC** · 01-01-2012, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Super Sportsman

Olie i have one question for you what happend to the cub you bought last year ?

And yes i agree with the above io-360 does not like mo gas

Mogas = bush flying! Yeah...

**8GCBC** · 01-01-2012, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Super Sportsman

Well yes its more work but no carb ice and lots of power I liked it

Upside to fuel injection.... No venturi on IO-360 to reduce manifold pressure for fuel vaporization (and carb ice), good point Thank you!

**Olibuilt** · 01-01-2012, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Super Sportsman

Olie i have one question for you what happend to the cub you bought last year ?

And yes i agree with the above io-360 does not like mo gas

Almost 2 years since I bought the cub. I'v sold the firewall forward, 2 sets of floats, put a 0-360 C4P, 35'' Bushwheels, 2200 straight floats, flaps, 60 gallons of gas, etc....
Fly perctly for more than 200hrs. But I didn't built it... I really think I can built a better lighter flying machine that really fits with me. I plan building this one and sell the other. I'll take my time, my white cub is always ready to fly.

Allready seems like a long time ago...

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?36456-Need-advice-on-purchase-(first-plane)/page2&highlight=olibuilt

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?38636-SuperSport-Special-Rebuilt&highlight=olibuilt

On youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/olibuilt

**Olibuilt** · 01-01-2012, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Rusk

Titanium is not very easy to work. You might consider ordering a titanium firewall from Atlee Dodge. It is predrilled and ready to go. Saves 2 pounds over a stock firewall.

Bill

600$ is a bit $$ for a firewall. I'll take the chance. Should not be that hard to drill .016 titanium.... We will see...

Hey Bill???

Was ready to order some parts for the electric trim. Would you change something from your last setup???

Thanks for the advice on the rivets 8GCBC.

**8GCBC** · 01-01-2012, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by Olibuilt

600$ is a bit $$ for a firewall. I'll take the chance. Should not be that hard to drill .016 titanium.... We will see...

Thanks for the advice on the rivets 8GCBC.

In Canada, you should be able to purchase good scrap 304, 316 for a firewall for about $20-50 US? If you wanted instead of pricey Ti ?

In thinner application Ti starts to equal out (or even lose) against 304, 316 steels. Once Ti see a good fire too, it becomes weaker vs. 304, 316, and nickel based iron (ferrite) alloys which can take a good lick'n and still mantain desirable charateristics.

Some engineers consider Ti to be JUST a better "aluminum" and iron (ferrite) /nickel alloys best for high oxidation (FIRE) application. I agree.

**Cub junkie** · 01-01-2012, 05:41 AM

I find drilling titanium easier than stainless. It's been a few years ago but I found a scrap sheet of ti on ebay. Was a lot cheaper than getting a small amount from a supplier.

**skywagon8a** · 01-01-2012, 06:14 AM

There are special flatter ground drill bits for drilling titanium. With the correct drill bit, it is not difficult.

**8GCBC** · 01-01-2012, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by cub junkie

i find drilling titanium easier than stainless.

Harder to driil means better heat reflectivity?

it's been a few years ago but i found a scrap sheet of ti on ebay. Was a lot cheaper than getting a small amount from a supplier.

Ti is insanely high in price.

But, Ti is the best metal out there for moderate heat (not high oxidation) applications! "Grin and bear" for "sticker shock."

**Bill Rusk** · 01-05-2012, 12:19 PM

Sorry for the delayed response. I REALLY liked the electric trim and am planning to do it again. I have ordered a different motor, not that I disliked the last one, but this one has a lot more torque and spins a little faster. Funny how we always want more. BDPG -38-86-12V-3000-R51 from Anaheim Automation

http://www.anaheimautomation.com/pro...tID=103&cID=46

I have not used it yet so I can not confirm it but it looks good on paper. See the thread on "Building a Smith Cub" to get all the info from the last electric trim install with motor specifics etc

Hope this helps

Bill

**jgerard** · 01-05-2012, 05:22 PM

The Atlee firewall is flanged also, That way the side parts of the boot cowl rivet directly on to the fire wall not a secondary aluminum flange. that saves weight and complexity in building the firewall/boot cowl. Stainless and ti are not easily flanged around a corner like aluminum.

I don't think there is any problem with aluminum rivets on the firewall. It's not like you normally operate with an engine fire. If you crash and burn having rivets melt is honestly of no concern. If the fire is hot enough to melt rivets it's going to melt the entire boot cowl as well. I have never ever heard of any tube and fabric airplane have a firewall/boot cowling come apart because of an in flight engine fire. I know many certified aircraft use monel or stainless rivets but i would have no problem using aluminum rivets on a cub type aircraft. The firewall/boot cowling is not structural. I think the question would be what is more corrosion resistant when using dissimilar metals.

Jason

**tcraft128** · 01-05-2012, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Rusk

Sorry for the delayed response. I REALLY liked the electric trim and am planning to do it again. I have ordered a different motor, not that I disliked the last one, but this one has a lot more torque and spins a little faster. Funny how we always want more. BDPG -38-86-12V-3000-R51 from Anaheim Automation

http://www.anaheimautomation.com/pro...tID=103&cID=46

I have not used it yet so I can not confirm it but it looks good on paper. See the thread on "Building a Smith Cub" to get all the info from the last electric trim install with motor specifics etc

Hope this helps

Bill

Bill, does it go in the old gear box?

I have a clone of Bills "old" system and I get a 7 second lock to lock transit time. If you think that is to slow, go time a piper arrow or lance, if is almost 20 seconds.

**Bill Rusk** · 01-05-2012, 07:20 PM

No, this one is direct drive, no gearbox. I sure don't remember mine making stop to stop in 7 seconds. Wow. I remember spinning the manual trim crank as fast as my arm could go and it took something like 12 seconds and the electric took slightly longer. So the whole premise of a faster motor was based on getting it to spin as fast as I could do it manually.
I was quite happy with my electric trim but thought more torque would be nice, the extra speed was a bonus. It may not work out and I may end up going back to the original set up. I should know in about a month. The downside to extra speed is it can be harder to make small changes. Fast equals easy to overshoot.

Bill

**Olibuilt** · 02-16-2012, 07:53 PM

Was starting with a new-old fuselage.

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Decide to save some weight and waist some time drilling holes... Suprisly long how long to save a pound more steel...

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Then came the jig.

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Tube notching with a hole saw

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**Bill Rusk** · 02-16-2012, 10:32 PM

Update. The new trim motor did not work out so I am back to the system I used on the last build.

Bill

**Olibuilt** · 02-17-2012, 06:17 AM

Thanks for the info Bill. What did not worked with the trim motor? It sure looked good on paper... Sad because mine is travelling between California and Canada right now.....

An homemade notching-marking tool made from welding rods and hoses worked perfect for me