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Stretched PA20/22, Bushmaster, Javelin, etc

Hi Steve [Airwrench],No offence taken, I did not know about the hunting trip to Alaska, but I can understand why someone after flying in it, would want an airplane that performs just like the "Producer". I think it is a cedit to you and your dad to be able to design and build an airplane that can compete with the best of them and win at Valdeze. The airplanes are very similar in performance, but because I can buy the STC's and I like to build my own airplanes, I have gone the "Super Pacer" root. I have never actually seen the "Producer", other than pictures, but hope to someday get back to Alaska so I can actually compare the "Producer" to the "Super Pacer".
Regards Colin.
 
Hello all I am a new member and am building a experimental pacer. I am wodering if any of you have any info on switching over to Pa 18 gear. I have new fittings to put on i am just looking for some good ideas on how to widen the v cabane.
 
Your in Coeur D'Alene, Do you know Bob down in Tekoa? He has a beautiful Stretched Pacer that won Grand Champion Plans Built at Arlington in 2009.
 
I'm looking at an airplane for sale that's advertised as a bushmaster. It's experimental. It started life as a PA-20, was completely taken apart, stretched, had a custom wing built thats longer with an aluminum reinforced spar, with a larger chord and leading edge cuff. On top of other things that were done it has an IO-540 pulling it along. It's a nice looking airplane. If anyone is still out there on this thread I'm curious what your thoughts would be. Any "hot spots" people run into when building these stretch pacers that I should watch for?
 
I would be looking at the engineering for the bigger engine, although Pug Piper did put a 0540 on a Pacer once just to scare the hell out of some buyers. That’s a lot of weight to be bouncing off airport landings, how about fuel capacity 25gph. And what does you WB look like after 2hours and 400lbs burn off.
 
Thanks for the advice!

The aircraft belongs to a well known and respected DPE in the area and he built it about 14 years ago so I trust his numbers and performance quotes. It carries 50 gal of fuel and at 22" x 2200 rpm at 5,000-6,000 he gets 12 gph. Granted it will suck 25gph on takeoff, but that's only going to last maybe 5 min before pulling it back to more economical numbers. I will definitely take a good look at the W/B numbers. While I was looking at the plane he told me it's well balanced. You can tell he loves it and the only reason he's parting with it is because of his age. He said he used to fly it every week. We're going to fly it next week so I can see it for myself. It is definitely heavy coming in at 1380ish# empty, but he has the MGW set at 2350#. He told me he's never concerned himself with the W/B because if it fit in the plane, it would fly. I guess someone asked him a couple of years ago "Why did you put that big engine on the front of that thing!?" and his answer was "Well... at 3:00 o'clock this afternoon when I want to leave, I can get in my plane and go..." We're over here with idaho on our back door, so operations up at 7 - 8k density altitude aren't unusual. He said he has been running ethanol free premium auto gas for years with no problems. Saves a couple dollars at the pump. Haven't made up my mind, but it sure is a pretty looking airplane that jumps off the ground. I'll see how I feel next week after flying it before really digging into the numbers.

I'm new to the field of a/c ownership and it just caught my eye with stellar performance (TO/LNDG in 150'), IFR certified, 4 seats, almost new condition, always hangared. He's asking 80K. Seemed reasonable from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm being blinded by how pretty it is, or if it's a reasonable deal. Should I be scared about it being experimental and investing in it? I've heard it can be hard to get rid of them if you need to liquidate assets. Trying to take my time and do the research.

Thanks for any concerns or advice you might have! I don't have much in the way of experience with experimental a/c. Plenty of time flying, not a whole lot of time in the a/c buying/selling game.
 
As I said in a previous thread, A friend of mine has built a stretched Pacer with a O-360 and it performs a lot like a Super Cub. Plus it carries 4 people. The Bush Master I believe you are referring to, with the 540 was last seen on ebay for sale.
 
Hi; I have a Bushmaster. Did not build it, but was around helping a bit, at the time it came together. Owner, and builder passed away, after it sat unused for the better part of 20 years. He built two of them, and essentially did not fly either of them enough to work out the bugs, or learn the capabilities. Both aircraft were sold, after the builders passing. Mine was done, at a time that Milo DeAngeles(?spelling) in B.C. Canada, was a source of info, parts, and was comrade of the builder. This part of Idaho, is not far from B.C. Thus it was known originally as a Canadian Bushmaster. Mine has cub airfoil, new one piece, full length spars, with wings one bay longer on each side, than the longer wing Super Cubs. Both the flaps, and ailerons are of similiar lenth, that being roughly 90 some inches each. The second aircraft he built, was done with D and E wings, so I have a little knowledge of both. My Bushmaster, started life, with a ford 3.8L V6, liquid cooled on it. It was kind of a nose heavy pig equiped with that engine. I flew it 140 hours that way. Subsequently, I put an 0-360 Lyc, with constant speed prop, on it and it acts a little more like a Super Cub now, but is a heavier, like 200 pounds. It does not stall quite as slow, nor take off quite as short. There are a number of these " types" around, with variations of engines, and differences in fuselage lengthening processes. Dave Blanton instructed a different process for the Ford-Javelin, which I believe resulted in tail feathers being in the same plane on the lengthened version, as they were on the PA20, or 22. Some of the guys are moving the horizontal surfaces, such that they mimic the Supercub tail positioning geometry which as I have flown the different versions, it strikes me as the way to do it. The one significant difference in these conversions, in my opinion, is the difference in the wing Angle of Incidence, compared to the Supercub. This difference, if not modified from the original 20 and 22 fuselages, results in an aircraft that is faster in cruse, and with a bit less performance in take off and landing as compared to the cub. It would be hard to assess a specific airframe modificaton without measuring it very carfully, and flying it. The differing weights and power plants, have produced aircraft that appear to have significantly different characteristics. Experimental it is called apparently for good reason. I doubt that any two are going to fly the same, other than possibly those done by one person, and exactly to consistent STC specifications. It is my opinion, that with guys all over everywhere, whacking off fuselage, and then lenthening them between 18 and 36 inches, and welding back together, has produced some significant differences in performance characteristics. As an aside, I have always wanted to assemble another fuselage, with a few improvements, and hang an 0-540 on it. I might do it, and suspect that when finished, I would wonder why, because I suspect that the lessons learned, would be the added weight, hanging off the front of a fuselage originally built for 0-235 thru 0-320's and what a person would have to do to get it in balance, would reduce performance in most situations, that the gains of additional power, would more than likely be mostly offset by more weight, and fuel consumption. If it was cheap and easy, I'd really like to try it, and think probably when it was compared to the Lyc.0-360 version I have now, the results would be mostly disappointment. Lighter, with more power, would be ideal. Usually the two, don't go together. I know this will sound stupid, but I am convinced that in cruise, the Bushmaster, with the large engine, would go too fast for comfort. Those big wings, really beat you up, in even light turbulence, when you get going 125 to 140mph. I run my 0-360, throttled way back, to keep it around 115. Who ever heard of an airplane that goes too fast? Is that possible? Sure is for me. A lot of opinions, not much factually useful.
 
Hey I really appreciate the input! Thanks for your 2 cents. It will definitely go into the list of pros vs cons. I'm looking forward to a demo flight. I'll post back my findings.
 
Really 12gph, not with that airframe, along with the airfoil, and all the rest. you cannot idle a 0540 for 12gph, and if you are running it that lean you will pay the cylinder repairman. fill the tanks, and fly for an hour and stick them, period. I agree with toothcarpenter about flying to fast for the airplane.
 
The Lyc. 0-360 I fly behind, can put some serious hurt on the budget, if applied indiscrimately. The 0-540's I have owned, traded beautiful noise for a rapidly declining fuel guage. Some really nice guy reminded me that the Lyc.360 will suck up 18gph on take off. Haven't yet figured out how to skip that phase of the operation. I admire the guys who have fuel flow meters, and can look at em. It is my guess, that if the 540 Lycoming was a really suitable engine for the Bushmaster, Super Pacer, Producer, etc, there would exist, numerous of them for us to evaluate. I have been really interested in the concept for several years, and just haven't heard of hardly any equipped in that fashion. Thanks! ed
 
Hi, new to the forum, thought I would add some info to this thread. From BC, and having had the pleasure of meeting a few people with Bushmasters of the Milo version, (no 2 are alike it seems) I set out to purchase one for myself as in my trade I would have no time to build one for myself.. I searched for three years looking a many of the different versions of the build and finally was rewarded by finding one near Palmer Alaska. It is neither a Producer or a Bushmaster but shares a lot of similarities. It began as a Pacer, the wing was stretched 8' by Crosswinds STOL, fuselage stretched 30", wing chord extended 3" with that going to the control surfaces, 10' flaps, 6' ailerons, IO 540 was mounted on a Maule engine mount, 31" bush wheels, 96 gals in 4 tanks, it weighs in at close to 1700 lbs and has a gross weight of 2850 lbs, they did a superb job of building this plane and I could go on for a while with all of the other great features but I just wanted to say from my experience have owned and flown this plane for the last three years that while the fuel burn does hit 22 gal per hour on take off I am at circuit altitude by midfield and have pulled back to 20.5 mp at 2300 rpm (92" Hertzell CS) and leaned to 13.5 GPH on my totalizer which gives me my just lean of peak setting. At these setting I fly at 115 mph indicated which is where I want to be. The fuel burn does not affect my c of g in any significant way. I absolutely love this aircraft while it is no fuel miser it can pack a very large load off a very high, short strip on a very warm day. The power is there when you need it and no carb ice. I do have two batteries in it one forward and one behind the rear baggage. No hand propping this girl, they are wired on separate circuits so I can use either or both. It flies beautifully, no appreciable stall, just mushes down level, nose does not pitch down. It has 4 stall fences one at the end of each control surface, droop tips, vgs, cuff leading edge which adds greatly to the stability. And I love the twin sticks and gull wing doors that can be left open in flight. The firewall and longerones and cockpit as well as the tail were all redesigned to handle the 290 hp that the Lycoming delivers. So if your thinking about whether it will ruin the plane by putting the bigger engine in it, defiantly not, just take the time to do it right and you will have a great performing aircraft that won't burn as much fuel as you think. My next plan after I get the floats on this spring is gami injectors as I know a local who put them on his RV and dropped his fuel burn from 13.5 to 10.5 GPH and yes those are US gallons 😄😄😄😄. I hope this helps anyone considering the option. Cheers


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Been flying my Stretched Tripacer N4625D since 2007. Engine is a IO360-A3B6D with P235 Pawnee prop pitched at 46. Engine has never missed a beat. A real blast to fly. No bad habits. 2300 rpm around 105 mph. 2 place with large baggage. When I go camping I bring the firewood and barbacue. My longest non-stop flight was 2.5 hours. Leaned to peak EGT maybe a little more I put 14 gallons in it when I landed. Got the prop inspected and dual mag overhauled this winter. I wish this winter would end so I could put the plane back together and go flying. Search my name in the forum and photos for more info on my plane.
 
Just messing around figuring this add pic thing out

I think this will work better
Cheers
 

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Right on, how did they do. I would love to see that video but a quick search shows it's sold out and was in VHS format. Which kinda sets the date. I think they stopped the STOL contest in Gulkana in the late 90s and moved it to Valdez. This plane was finished in 93 so it's quite possible, thanks for the feedback cheers


Bushmaster
 
When you build an experimental stretched Pacer with PA 14 wings what does the gross weight of the plane work out to? Seems like you would have to go with the PA 14 1850 lbs. I know it is experimental and you can calculate what ever gross weight you want but if you do nothing but copy a 14 wing and strut combo it seems safer to use the certified gross weight.

Is this what people are using or are there ways of beefing up the 14 wing to a higher gross weight that has proven to be safe?
 
The wing on mine started as a pa 20 wing that was stretched 8 feet and had 3" added to the chord giving it the surface area allowing for the upgrade in gross weight. The previous owner along with the builder of the wing came up with the original gross weight for it but to add to that when I imported it into canada I had to submit my own weight and balance to transport canada as part of getting my Canadian c of a. I used the formula that I got from EAA and came up with the same results as the previous owner for that gross weight upgrade. Hope that helps. cheers.


Bushmaster
 
I am in the process of buying a 1958 PA-22 converted to Bushmaster by STC. It is currently in Kenai on 2440 EDOs with a 180 hp engine.
I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has flown a similar airplane. Tips, tricks, mechanics.

I did test fly it - definitely blew my hair back compared to my 135 hp PA-20 on wheels.
One question I had - it seemed hard to keep the ball in the middle. It this because of the aileron-rudder interconnect, the floats (no extra tail surface area is currently installed), or something I'm missing.

I can't wait to spend more time in it, and I want to hear from other bushmaster or producer pilots out there.
 
Is the aileron-rudder interconnect still installed? That could be part of it. Your brief description indicates that the PA-22 seaplane fin ought to be installed. You will be amazed at the improvement with one at no penalty.
 
Yes, the interconnect is still there. I have never flown with one apart from that test flight -- any tips for flying with the interconnect installed?
I have been thinking more vertical stablizer is in order. Is there any preference between the horizontal stabilizer mounted ones and the ventral fin?
 
Since that is a certified airplane can you legally remove the interconnect? The interconnect was originally installed on the PA-22 to help pilots in coordinating the controls. Also it contributed to the passing of some of the flight testing maneuvers. A TriPacer is uncomfortable in rough air due to being short coupled and the interconnect tending to over control when you just want to make a small flight adjustment. If you can remove it, do so. If you can't do it anyway.

The fin will work equally as well under the tail or on the stabilizers as long as they have enough area.
 
Yes, the interconnect is still there. I have never flown with one apart from that test flight -- any tips for flying with the interconnect installed?
Hold feet hard against the pedals when picking up a wing with the ailerons. Doing so you will be stretching the interconnect springs. You can deactivate the interconnect system just by removing the springs and tying back the loose extra cables. No need to cut anything. Then if you get a fussy IA for your annuals you can easily reconnect just for the annual. :evil:
 
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