Float Operations Forum Area

Lows Lake

Writen by Brad Parker

Dear Pilot and/or outdoor access supporter,

I need your help in this continuing effort. As you know, Lows Lake is a 9 mile long, man made reservoir created by two dams. The lake is south of Cranberry Lake and 20 miles southeast of the Village of Tupper Lake, NY. The use of this lake represents about 50% of the income to the two remaining Adirondack commercial float plane operators. It also has numerous camping areas and has private properties (including a Boy Scout Camp) and private roads and motor vehicles near some of its shore line. It is not, however, accessible by roadway to the general public.

Pushed and supported by well lawyered and financed environmental organizations, who insist that Lows is a "wilderness area", this and other numerous remote waterbodies have been closed to float plane access in the Adirondacks by the Adirondack Park Agency, the New York Dept. of Environmental Conservation, and the recent, essentially ex-parte ruling by a state court judge. In this matter, the judge only heard the arguments of the state agencies and the extreme environmental organizations.

The state agency authorities say that these closures are part of their "Master Plan" for the administration of the Adirondack Forest Preserve, also known as the Adirondack Park.
Lows Lake is one of the last large remote lakes that is, but will be soon (January 1, 2012) be closed to seaplane access.

There are numerous reasons why the lake should not be closed.
Indeed, a study performed by the state a few years ago showed that a majority of the actual users of the lake did not object to the operation of float planes there.

There have been several efforts made by the commercial operators who have had meetings with various state officials and there is currently a non-connected or affiliated law suit in the federal district court by a group of disabled persons seeking to overturn the closures. All of these efforts are being strongly opposed by the state's executive branch.

Over the past two years a group of pilots in the Adirondack northcountry have written several letters to the three Governors and several other officials asking that an accomodation be made to allow continued float plane use at Lows Lake. The Conservation Dept and Park Agency joined in writing two responses over the time period. Both responses were brief and said that their position was that they consider the "matter closed". They did not address or respond to the several valid reasons why it is incorrect to close Lows Lake to aviation access. No responses were ever received to several letters addressed to the three New York Governors in office during the time period or from the chief agency officials to which letters were also written during the same period.

Information obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request made for us by a local Tupper Lake attorney showed that letters received by the NYS Agencies which supported this closure were very predominately sent by persons in New York City, New Jersey and Pennsylvania and were solicited by an Adirondack hiking and environmental organization.

Over the past two years, four of 13 legislators contacted provided responses. They all indicated that they would review the matter and possibly propose legislation to alter the agencies action to close Lows Lake. However, no further action or response from the legislators has been observed for the past 6 months.

Recently I have had conversations with and provided information to the new Executive Director of the Seaplane Pilot's Association, Steve McCaughey, and also to Jon Brown of Brown's Seaplanes in Florida and Bob Tebbutt, the SPA northern New York Field Director.

All of these individuals have or are asking these legislators to please respond to them with information about what can be done to create an accommodation for continued seaplane access to Lows Lake.

It is important that pilots and others interested in the future of floatplane use in the Adirondacks and throughout this country continue to voice opposition to and work to overturn this closure.
We must be vocal about this lake. If this lake can be closed, any lake can be closed. Most are certainly more wild and natural than Lows.

The closure of Lows represents a "taking" of public property for the exclusive use of the preservationist paddling community by the use of a totally invalid argument. It is about the end justifying the means for a decidedly more powerful and selfish group. It is about government environmental agency officials who come from and are supported by the extreme environmental community who believe that they have enough power and position that they do not have to defend, respond to, or negotiate their decisions.

Our only power at this time rests with getting the attention of the elected representatives. They give much greater respect and weight to personnally written letters than they do to letters signed by numerous individuals, as those written by our group have been.

I ask that every person interested in the future of float planes please send a short note (and please beg all of your friends to write a similiar note) to at least one of the elected representatives below and all of them if you will.

Just mail a short letter and say "please keep Lows Lake in the Adirondacks open to float plane access " and or " Float Plane access to Lows Lake is important to me. Please create a law to allow planes to continue to go there" and sign your name and mail it to one of the legislators below. You can write your own message as well or instead.

Anything that you say will get the message across that you support float plane access in the Adirondacks and elsewhere. They need to hear from you-each and everyone. It is extremely important and valuable to all of us as people who believe that we should have reasonable access to our public places, as well as to all pilots everywhere. Please write them and write to them again and again as time allows you over the months ahead.

In addition, if you are aware of an attorney or law firm that is interested in engaging in this public access law issue, please ask them to contact me or Steve McCaughey at the Seaplane Pilot's Association.

Thank you very, very much.

Please write:

Governor Andrew Cuomo
Executive Chambers
State Capitol
Albany, NY 12224

Assemblywoman Janet Duprey
NYS Assembly
937 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248

Assemblywoman Donna Lupardo
NYS Assembly
557 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248

Senator Betty Little
NYS Senate
506 Legislative Office Building
Albany, NY 12247

Commissioner Joe Martens
NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233

Senator James L. Seward
NYS Senate
711 Legislative Office Building
Albany, NY 12247

Assemblywoman Theresa Sayward
NYS Assembly
940 L. O. B.
Albany, NY 12248

Assemblyman Tony Jordon
NYS Assembly Assembly
725 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248

Assemblyman Marc Butler
NYS Assembly
725 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248

aktango58 said:

Ah, Dale, turning FROM downwind to the right might be more specific...

Dave, Yup, should be obvious, but I am not seeing much in the way of response... maybe every one is groaning and now looking at the Husky site;-)

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Yup, FROM downwind, depends on wind velocity & airplane type/pilot experience. With strong winds it is better to stop before turning around.

Rob Murray For a moment I thought this was going to be about centrifugal force, P-factor and X-wd

control.​

Rob is correct. In lighter winds left turn will utilize P-factor to help tighten the turn. With stronger winds in a right turn the P-factor will help reduce the weather
cocking effect as the left rudder will run out of power. Of course this assumes a single engine airplane. With two engines, you have the added advantage of being able to manipulate the throttles.

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180Marty said:

While I really don't know for sure, I was getting instruction in a 185 with 3730 Wip amphibs in south Louisiana a few years ago. He had me landing with a 15 mph tail wind and stepping around to the left to take off. We did numerous circuits like that. Another thing he had me do was "S" turns on one float before adding more power for takeoff. To make it even more interesting, there were stakes for fish traps making for an obstacle course. I probably wasn't the best at this and for sure wouldn't do it by myself, but it was fun and nice knowing I had probably one of the best float instructors in the right seat. I forget how many hours of night float time he had going out to oil rigs.

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Marty, This instructor may have had a lot of experience but, he uses extremely poor judgement. Particularly while training a low time seaplane pilot as you say you are. Most large airplanes have a published limitation that "you will not land or take off with more than 10 knots of tail wind." These airplanes have take off and landing speeds which are a lot higher than a 185. That means that 10 knots is a lot smaller percentage of the stall speed on the big planes than 15mph is on a 185.

Landing downwind in 15mph wind means that your ground (water) touch down speed is 30mph higher than with a headwind. Your water drag at touch down will be extremely high and you will run out of directional control while still going 15mph or greater (0 airspeed). All I can say is, that instructor seems to be a bit too macho for his own good.

Dave Calkins said:

What's wrong with this statement relating to step turns????????

George, if your'e embarrassed, ask nicely and I'll remove the quotes and post........if I can>

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It goes against all our training, but with a standard flap handle pulled up, I end up pinning your knee between the stick and the flaps at about 1/2 alieron...

So with the one bird I flew with that handle, I made right turns, and did it as little as possible!

aktango58 said:

It goes against all our training, but with a standard flap handle pulled up, I end up pinning your knee between the stick and the flaps at about 1/2 alieron...

So with the one bird I flew with that handle, I made right turns, and did it as little as possible!

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So, you're discussing step turns with float neophytes and considering scenarios where they would be step turning WITH flaps down???? NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Man, this is just getting good...


Option A, to be called skilled Dave's: flaps at two notches for takeoff, power up, get on step, lift flaps, step turn, pull flaps back on and lift off...

Option B, to be called soupless Campbell's: flaps at two notches for takeoff, power up, get on step, step turn, lift off...


Seems more attention can be paid to outside, skids and such by not messing with the flaps at all. What is your take?

Landing downwind in 15mph wind means that your ground (water) touch down speed is 30mph higher than with a headwind. Your water drag at touch down will be extremely high and you will run out of directional control while still going 15mph or greater (0 airspeed).

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Evidently I must be wrong since what I said isn't possible. I do know that when we touched the water, there was a very big tendency to pitch forward. We never came off the step going downwind and always made the step turn into the wind to takeoff again. Also, when making the tight turns I was told to kind of walk the rudder pedals. When making a left turn, you would give it quite a bit of left rudder but immediately counteract it with right so it wouldn't get to tight. Kind of jab to the left and back off then repeat. This man could make a 185 do things most wouldn't dream of doing.

aktango58 said:

Man, this is just getting good...


Option A, to be called skilled Dave's: flaps at two notches for takeoff, power up, get on step, lift flaps, step turn, pull flaps back on and lift off...

Option B, to be called soupless Campbell's: flaps at two notches for takeoff, power up, get on step, step turn, lift off...


Seems more attention can be paid to outside, skids and such by not messing with the flaps at all. What is your take?

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my take is to keep the a/c on the water and stable until I want it in the air. A well-practiced individual (you, George) will know what the a/c is doing, so have at it. A newby shuold live by set rules until he "knows" enough to start breaking the rules, and why, and by how much............

180Marty said:

Evidently I must be wrong since what I said isn't possible. I do know that when we touched the water, there was a very big tendency to pitch forward. We never came off the step going downwind and always made the step turn into the wind to takeoff again. Also, when making the tight turns I was told to kind of walk the rudder pedals. When making a left turn, you would give it quite a bit of left rudder but immediately counteract it with right so it wouldn't get to tight. Kind of jab to the left and back off then repeat. This man could make a 185 do things most wouldn't dream of doing.

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3730's are a pretty big 'can'. Relatively greater deadrise than many other floats. Aaannndd, amphib's....heavy.

A guy can get away with alot more before upsetting the cart, than say, in a empty Cub on EDO 2000's.

It's about wing loading and water-loading, along with a "big-water" float like the Wipline design.

Just to be argumentative (and because I believe so-called "P-factor" to be a very small affect)......what does P-factor have to do with turning a floatplane? Whether you're step-turning or "displacement" turning?

Even if I believed Pfactor to exert a significant force, would it have ANY force on a 'level' a/c??? Don't Pfactor believers state "...descending blade...blah, blah..."? On a LEVEL FLOAT PLANE??? .......[/QUOTE]

First of all the only time that a float plane is level is when it is cruising along in flight. Any other time there will be a nose up attitude to some extent. Second you need to go practice in light wind conditions in a tight space. First make a tight left step 180 degree turn. Then make a tight right step 180 degree turn. Then come back here and tell us how many bushes you picked up while making the right turn.

Here is a question for the group. When taking off with a cross wind, which wing do you lift first when leaving the water? And why? Hint: you will not find the answer in your seaplane instruction manual.

Well said Dave.

Bill

skywagon8a said:

First of all the only time that a float plane is level is when it is cruising along in flight. Any other time there will be a nose up attitude to some extent. Second you need to go practice in light wind conditions in a tight space. First make a tight left step 180 degree turn. Then make a tight right step 180 degree turn. Then come back here and tell us how many bushes you picked up while making the right turn.

Here is a question for the group. When taking off with a cross wind, which wing do you lift first when leaving the water? And why? Hint: you will not find the answer in your seaplane instruction manual.

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Skywagon, I've enjoyed your posts over the years. You are very knowledgable and reasonable. So, thanks for that.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I didn't know the plane would turn tighter to the left.....anyway, there is no need to send me out to test that......but.........I've asked WHY? ......and doubt that P-factor is a good enough cause.....I submit that maybe it is something else.

.....also, a float plane on step could pretty much be assumed to be "level". On step, it surely is more 'level' than it is "nose up" or "nose down". Is there any point at all in debating that?

I'm in Alaska, we have all winter before there is water here, so I can put this to use if I learn something.;-)

Dave,

moved to a new thread about step turns... just to keep it interesting!

Dave Calkins said:

Skywagon, I've enjoyed your posts over the years. You are very knowledgable and reasonable. So, thanks for that.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I didn't know the plane would turn tighter to the left.....anyway, there is no need to send me out to test that......but.........I've asked WHY? ......and doubt that P-factor is a good enough cause.....I submit that maybe it is something else.

.....also, a float plane on step could pretty much be assumed to be "level". On step, it surely is more 'level' than it is "nose up" or "nose down". Is there any point at all in debating that?

I'm in Alaska, we have all winter before there is water here, so I can put this to use if I learn something.;-)

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Dave, I too respect your opinions and point of view. I must have misunderstood your posting. Please accept my apology. My wife accuses me of misunderstanding her as well.

Perhaps calling "it" P-factor is the wrong term. I am certain that whatever it is called that a seaplane, whether a float or boat plane, will turn tighter to the left with power. My suggestion of making right turns in higher winds utilizes power to help reduce the rate of turn/capsizing effect which is caused by weather cocking. Of course, if the winds are that high, one should get off the step and slowly turn around and start over. Certain single float planes can turn, on the step, within their own length to the left but require a much larger radius in a right turn.

Maybe I should have said PEE factor, which comes into play when your downwind float wants to bury itself in the water. What has worked for me (when taxiing downwind) is to make the turn from downwind to upwind by kicking the plane around as it comes up on the top of a wave, when the bows of the floats are almost clear. Otherwise, if you start the turn when you are sliding down a wave the bows of the floats will be running deep and your upwind wing will be high in the air as you come around into the wind. And that can bring on the pee factor.

Guys. I used this discussion to broach the subject of P-factor, and to mention I am a "P-factor doubter", as well as a "global warming doubter". I believe that there are more accurate causual affectors.

...anyway, as far as the tighter turning question.....whether to the right or to the left........when the type of float plane we're talking about here (Cub, 180/185) is in displacement mode is when one would most notice it going left better than right....................

......when step turning.........other factors become more important than ..."...I can turn it alot tighter to the left...". Skill being one of the most important.

My opinion. D

Can't say I needed a step turn at any time for anything. I'm a pretty good sailor.