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Thread: Re-rigging Federal 2200 hydraulic skis

  1. #1
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Re-rigging Federal 2200 hydraulic skis

    I am about to (with the help of Dr. Darrel Starr and Bob Eckstein) install Atlee Dodge extended, heavy duty gear on my PA18. That will necessitate rerigging my Federal hydraulic skis, and I am trying to determine how to re-rig the skis for use with the extended gear. Anyone have experience doing this?

    Many, many thanks. Not only do I depend upon these skis being re-rigged, so does Santa.
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    enuf said. Please help me and Santa get his sleigh in shape for Christmas!

    Randy

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    dalec's Avatar
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    Randy

    The check cables should change in length. Changing the gears is simple and straight forward (I manged it by myself this summer), you did get the longer shock struts also? Enjoy!

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    your goal...

    http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...d=60&Itemid=64

    you might not get it exact with wheel skis, so your compromise is set riggers so tails of skis JUST clear ground in wheel position with tail on ground....(usually)(this is from memory for federal 2500's)

    maybe you have some better data to work with for your skis?

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    appears to not have riggers... looking at the picture...

    cables parallell and same length is a good start.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  5. #5
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    appears to not have riggers... looking at the picture...
    fedral riggers are inside ski/rear cable..... I think

  6. #6
    aktango58's Avatar
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    don't the riggers replace the front springs/check cables?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    These look like Fluidyne C-2200 skis to me???

    Randy, when the skis retract, do the tires rest on top of the skis?

    If so, the riggers are, as Mike says, inside the rear tunnel.

    I think Mike hit the nail on the head. Rig them so that the tails of the skis are as close to the ground as practical with the skis in the "up" position.

    Basically rig them to the same angle as you have now, but with the longer cables to accomodate the longer gear.

    MTV

  8. #8
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Here are some photos that might help...
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    Mike V, the tires do rest on top of the skis, when retracted.

    I am unclear as to what you folks mean by "riggers"? Do these photos help you determine this?

    Randy

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    N5126H's Avatar
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    I have always rigged mine with the tails off the ground about 2-3 inches. This not only gave me adequate tip up profile when the skis were down, but also allows me to operate off gravel bars and beaches without beating the crap out of the skis. I am not a beleaver of "rig them as close to ground" as you can. Now, I have never had 2200, but 2500 and 3600.

    I also run 8:50s rather than 8:00s.
    On my AWB 2500 I use 8:50s with limited tread (air services will give you their old ones) but no cord showing. I have seen folks run 26" Bushwheels. You may not be able to up size the tire on 2200, but I can on AWB 2500 and 3600.

  10. #10
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Actually with the awb 2500 you cant get the right position without the tails dragging in wheel position. Thats why you must compensate and just clear the ground with the tails. (this was also using atlee springs in additon to the riggers. Maybe thats where we are diffrent)

  11. #11
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Dr. Randy is runnng 8.50 X 6 Goodyear tires, just to clarify.

    He asked me to look at how to disassemble the hydraulics out of the ski so he can have the skis cleaned, stripped, primed, painted and reassembled with new hoses, hardware, etc.
    Since I haven't had skis apart, please check to see if I have the disassembly sequence correct. Comments? Does the cylinder tail end pin usually come out easily?
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    I figure that once the cylinder and hoses are out of the way, the shaft for the lever and the lever itself can be removed.
    Am I missing anything -- is this generally the correct sequence?
    Actually as I look at the exploded view again, it looks like the large cross shaft and pieces attached to it have to come out before the cylinder can be pulled out -- correct?
    Last edited by Darrel Starr; 10-22-2011 at 06:43 PM.

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    N5126H's Avatar
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    Mike

    That has not been my experience and I am sure the design was not intended for them to drag. Look at my tag picture, those are 2500's I operated with for several years on and off beaches, the tails Are like new.

    Respectively,
    Bill

  13. #13
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N5126H View Post
    Mike...
    I am sure the design was not intended for them to drag...
    Bill
    they(skis & riggers) were never designed to be installed on a cub....(& amount of rigger travel wise..).... slightly more travel internally in the riggers would allow the angles to be meet.....

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    RIGGERS
    Hey guys! What is a rigger? Is that an Alaskan term for something? I've not had a lot of ski experience as we don't do much of it around here and have never heard that term in relation to skis.
    N1PA

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    what is different will be the way the mounts on the gear are C 2200s had bolt on gear atachments,some welded but they extend 90 degrees to front gear leg,atlees new ones extend down at a 45 degree,I still have old ones,I have talked with steve and wip air,they say this is for bigger tires but the new c2200 have a longer swing arm.so in thelocked up this will move the ski back one inch or so, is STC weigh and balance,legal? should have field approval.call if you want 414 791 9872 Ted

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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Starr View Post
    Dr. Randy is runnng 8.50 X 6 Goodyear tires, just to clarify.

    He asked me to look at how to disassemble the hydraulics out of the ski so he can have the skis cleaned, stripped, primed, painted and reassembled with new hoses, hardware, etc.
    Since I haven't had skis apart, please check to see if I have the disassembly sequence correct. Comments? Does the cylinder tail end pin usually come out easily?
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    I figure that once the cylinder and hoses are out of the way, the shaft for the lever and the lever itself can be removed.
    Am I missing anything -- is this generally the correct sequence?
    Actually as I look at the exploded view again, it looks like the large cross shaft and pieces attached to it have to come out before the cylinder can be pulled out -- correct?
    Anyone have suggestion as to how to get to the bungees? I think I want to replace them, as well.

    I, too, would like to know what you are referring to as "riggers"...

    Randy

  17. #17
    SteveE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindOnHisNose View Post
    I, too, would like to know what you are referring to as "riggers"...

    Randy
    I had an answer but I misread the question.

  18. #18

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    I see yours are ser # 120 made in 1959,mine are ser #140 made in 1961.they must of made only 10 or so a year. there is a thread on rebuilding these on here some place. wip air has all the parts you will need.

  19. #19
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    RIGGERS
    Hey guys! What is a rigger? Is that an Alaskan term for something? I've not had a lot of ski experience as we don't do much of it around here and have never heard that term in relation to skis.
    on AWB the all the guts are outside, unlike his in this thread

    the riggers are those round things on skis in middle of ski/pic(that thing at about a 45 deg angle) and connect to a bracket on gear to position the skis, have springs or such in them to allow some movement...


  20. #20

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    Darrel,
    If you have the complete set of prints, they show how to rig and have a complete picture of the internal working of the skis. If you take the cover off the skis it is easy to figure on how to get the hydraulics and bungies out of the skis. I replace my internal bungies on my 2200 & 3600 every two to three years. If you can't get the heels up at least 1 1/2" in the ski up position than the internal bungies are weak. Replacing the internal bungies are not for the weak of heart. Mine see a lot of use during the winter. On most cubs the CG will be out forward with the skis in the up position. The long swing arms are worse for forward CG on paper but the aircraft doesn't know that. My 185 will drag the tails with 8:50s at gross weight but I am at 3600 # gross. If I put more air in the tires it doesn't happen but it cuts down the shock absorption when landing in rough snow.

  21. #21
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Thanks articairalaska - We do have a picture of the bungie location too from the parts book so that looks doable also. I don't like messing with bungies and I don't think Randy's surgeon's hands need to be in harm's way so I am going to advise him to have Wip or some other experienced A&P install those.
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    Last edited by Darrel Starr; 10-23-2011 at 08:32 PM.

  22. #22
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Rigger is the nomenclature that the ski manufacturer used. Minnesota term?? The AWB rigger is a cylinder with a spring inside that is mounted outside of the tunnel (looks like a hydraulic cylinder) that "sets" the ski for approximately "level" flight. Fluidyne/FliLite Riggers: basically it's a bungee ring (smaller than the front bungees by far) that goes on a shaft/slider/limiter assembly that provides some "give" to the rear check cable. On Fluidyne's, it's inside the ski tunnel. On FliLites, it's mounted at top of the rear check cable at the fuselage tab location.

    On Fluidyne's I'm not a fan of the "rig them as close to the ground as possible" method. I believe that 3 inches clearance at the tail is better because it is more clearance for gravel operations and also.....When in "SKI" position, the nose of the ski is not "way the hell up in the air" and draggy, but in a more "level" attitude if starting with about 3 inches at the tail in the "WHEEL" position. I must qualify this by stating most of my experience, and all recent experience rigging and refurbishing/repairing/rebuilding Fluidyne's has been on 180/185's, and the above statement applies to them for SURE.

    Check all of the "tunnel cover" nutplates. That cover is structural, and the fasteners MUST all do their job.

    I see your original gear was "light duty". DAMN...you must be smooth to keep that stuff together on wheel skis.

    Also, I see you have a 'retension' cable....in other words, your front safety cables are running through the middle of the springs to retain them if they fail...GREAT....and make sure when you fabricate new cables that an anti-chafe sleeve protects the springs from cable chafe. Clear vinyl water hose from Home Depot works great for this.
    Last edited by Dave Calkins; 10-24-2011 at 10:52 AM.

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    were are the brake calipers,don't see any in photo? most are on top with disc brakes.

  24. #24
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Randy's calipers are on the bottom at the present - see picture. When the new gear goes on, where should the calipers go so they will best clear the skis -- Forward, top, rear, bottom?
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    Here is a possibility, front location -- another SC at KANE
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  25. #25

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    in those photos you can see what I was taking about . ,the two tabs or swing arm,mount point, were the bolt that conects ski to leg,were the yellow ends and white starts is down at 45 degrees from front of gear leg,and no extra bar in front of gear,don,t know if swing arm on new ones is longer.see Randys is out at 90 degrees or same as flight path.The weld marks on randys swing arms are not on mine,maybe his had been modifyed in past.I am going to call wip air and talk to them about if the swing arms on ours are the same lengh as new ones,STC says you must use that extra bar to suport leg,were does is say OK not to with our ser# skis?

  26. #26

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    Darrel,
    Another picture for you showing a Atlee bolt on bracket.Click image for larger version. 

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    and brake location.

  27. #27
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for all the help. Please keep it coming. Randy's new 3 inch Atlee gear has the ski fittings welded on. Also, if this helps, the yellow SC on skis pictured above has 3 inch gear also.

  28. #28

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    Darrel,
    This is what I use for the front ski bungie mount for the c-2200 and straight skis.Click image for larger version. 

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  29. #29
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Sandy, I really like that ski bungie mount! Did you fabricate that?

    Randy

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    Randy,
    It is an 3/8" AN46 drilled shank eye bolt 3 3/4" long with a 1 3/4" 4130 sleeve to space it from the engine mount. I think I got them fromWicks or Aviall.

  31. #31

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    I've got c-2200 w 3" gear-8.5 tires w atlees tab welded on, brakes are mounted in the back--fwiw

  32. #32
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Many thanks to all who contributed! Darrel, I'll be back tomorrow afternoon...thanks for guiding the discussion!

    Randy

  33. #33
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    I spoke with Stewart Barnes yesterday, and he suggested that consideration be given to installing a safety cable running from the back of the ski to the aircraft. He said Randy Kilbourn might be able to provide some insight, as they have them on the Cessnas operated by K2 Aviation. I have emailed Randy and will post his response. Anyone made this mod?

    Randy

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Randy, Check in AC 43.13 for ski installation guidance. A copy can be downloaded here. You will see that a safety cable is part of the guidance. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/74417

    AC 43.13-1B CHG 1 9/27/01

    9-8. FLOATS AND SKIS.
    N1PA

  35. #35
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Stewart Barnes sent me a link to a previous thread, discussing failure of the aft cable:
    http://www.supercub.org/forum/archiv.../t-39924.html?

    GeorgeMandes began it with an air-to-air photo of a friend's plane whose rear cable attachment failed:
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    I don't want this to happen to me.

    Randy

  36. #36
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    We are working on Randy's skis and have a question regarding the width of the plastic bottoms. We made them wider than the originals and 1/4 inch thick. Now we are wondering if the straight edges that don't follow the original upturned sides are going to scoop up snow. Any thoughts? Should we cut the plastic to a narrow size so the flared metal of the skis will come into play in a turn?
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    Last edited by Darrel Starr; 11-24-2011 at 01:55 PM.

  37. #37

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    Randy,
    I never use anything other than 1/8". 1/4" is way to heavy. If you extend out beyond the edge on the bottom you need to put the plastic in a brake and bend it up the same profile as the ski bottoms.

  38. #38

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    3/16ths 1/4 is to thick to work,and hevier, see the thread on rebuilding the 3000's

  39. #39

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    Randy,
    I have 1/8" on C-2200's, C-3600's, Fluidyne 4000's and my Aero 3000's fixed skis. I rivet with soft rivets. I may need to replace more often than 3/16" but the additional weight may be what gets you stuck deeper than the lighter weight.

  40. #40
    SteveE's Avatar
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    I did the weight calc for aero 2000's. It was 5 lbs more per ski by putting 1/4 " instead of 1/8". Not sure 10 lbs will be the difference in getting stuck or not. A bunch of old threads say go 1/4" and bend the sides up a bit. I chose 1/4" because of all the rocks we have around here and don't always have perfect snow cover.

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