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Thread: Building a Javron Cub

  1. #2201
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Nome Alaska. That is pretty much the whole place.


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    Just another gravel bar.....


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    Serpentine Hot Springs. The larger building you can camp in. Has a stove and other misc stuff left by other campers. This is a natural hot springs about 100 miles from the nearest town (Nome) with no roads. Accessible by air to the strip they put in. Rough gravel/dirt. A couple thousand feet. No problem for a Cub or well flown 180/185. There are granite monoliths sticking up out of the ground in the area. Pretty cool place to hike a little.


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    The natural hot springs are a little too hot so.......


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    They made a hot tub where you can mix in some cold water to make it useable.

    I will be heading North on floats in a few days. July, Aug and Sept in the SE using the Forest Service Cabins once again.

    Hope this helps (motivate)

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
    Thanks Charlie Longley thanked for this post

  2. #2202
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    FLOATS


    Folks

    2019 was an outstanding year with the trip to the
    Arctic and then floats in the SE for July, Aug and Sept. I will do a thread on that when I have time (probably in March) but in the meantime as I get ready for another season in AK I thought I would post a little on the float maintenance/overhaul to hopefully help others with Wip2100A floats. Each year I go through the floats really thoroughly to try to keep maint down during the season up north.

    GREASE - I switched from Aeroshell22 (recommended by Wip) to TRC (Texas Refinery Corp) #880 C&C NLGI#2

    THIS WAS A MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT!!!!

    I will be using this grease for everything I own now. The difference was huge. Aeroshell just emulsified and became a wet mess which trashed the bearings and races. This stuff looked just about like the day I put it in after 60 days in and out of the water in the SE. I can see getting several seasons out of a set of bearings now. I still recommend greasing the bearings often during the season if you can. It forces the old grease, and water, out which will help. I am not willing to carry a jack, grease gun, and everything else with me all summer long so my bearings do not get serviced but once a year. Not optimum for sure......but I already have a FULL load going North, so it is the price I pay.


    You can download the Wip Maintenance manual from their website and I recommend you do so and use that as your primary reference. Hopefully my notes (and pictures) will help.

    https://www.summitracing.com is an excellent place to order the bearings, races, and seals.

    Folks
    This is not a quick or easy job. Your arms will get scratched up from reaching down into the limited space openings. You are going to get grease on everything. You will probably be sore in lots of places when you are done. It is a tough and messy job. It takes me one full day to do one gear. So figure 4 full days to do this job. It might take more the first time. Obviously there is a learning curve and it does get easier.



    A quick summary.....

    1) Block it up
    2) Remove the wheel
    3) Remove the gear indicator
    4)
    Remove the spring & clevis from retract lever
    5) Remove the 1/2" nut from the bottom of the ram and move the ram out of the way
    6) Remove the 3/4" nut on 12" bolt ram attaches to
    7) Remove 12" long bolt/axle
    8 ) Remove the two 7/16 bolts and nuts where the indicator attaches to
    9) Remove the retract arm
    10) Remove the 6" bolt with 3/4" nut that holds the axle assembly on
    11) Remove the 4 per side 3/8" nuts and bolts that hold the sides on and take the main unit out the bottom



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    Block the float up. Make sure it is secure. You will be laying across and on top of the float in order to get your arms down both sides simultaneously.




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ID:	46720Remove the three covers next to the main gear (the one on the inside is shown from the other float) An electric screw driver is a BIG help here.




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ID:	46721Remove the two 7/16 bolts that hold the brake shoe on, remove the wheel. You might have to let the air out of the tire. Not all 5.00X5 tires are the same size or weight. I have Air Trac 6 ply tires. They weigh 5.4 pounds each and the shape of the tire fits in the well. The Condor tires (same size) have a different shape so they are harder to get on and off and they weigh 7.1 pounds. The wrong tire can cost 3.4 pounds and add nothing.
    Do not remove the hydraulic brake caliper. Just let it hang. If you want to overhaul the brake unit you can remove it and cap the line. Most of the Cleveland single puck units use a AN-6227-23 (MS28775-218 ) "O" ring on the puck. Brake bolts are torqued at 75-80 inch pounds.




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    Remove the gear indicator post. You might have to remove one of the two bolts next to it to get it off. Don't remove both of the bolts just yet. On second thought.....if you can't get the clevis out in the next step, you might need to remove both bolts which will take the pressure off the lever arm together the clevis out. No need to remove the grease zerks. After cleaning, when it is all apart, I use the grease gun to squirt some grease through the zerk to clean it out.




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    Remove the cotter pin, spring, and clevis pin that goes through the fork. NOTE and this is REALLY IMPORTANT
    The clevis (fork) is NOT symmetrical. One side has a deeper cut than the other. The arrows point to where the bottom of the clevis opening is. The deep opening has to go next to the lever arm. If you get it backwards the bottom of the lever arm will hit the clevis saddle and probably cause it to crack and fail. I recently checked a friends floats and found both clevises were 180 degrees out. This is NOT in the manual but certainly should be. (Amy?)

    Addendum
    Your system might look different depending on what model (new or older) set of floats you have. See below.


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    The proximity switch are either clamped to the ram or they are attached to the wall of the float like this. This is the newer style I think.



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    If you have the newer style your clevis pin will look more like this. #1 is the machined clevis pin #2 is the proximity switch (reed switch)
    #3 is a cylinder magnet. It is held in place by the set screws (#4). This allows you to adjust it (the magnet) in and out to get it close enough to the reed switch to activate it. No need to take the set screws and magnet out. The clevis, spring, and lever arm labels are just there to orient you to understand what you are seeing. You may have to pump the hydraulics by hand to move this assembly (lever arm) to get it to a place where you can get it apart without hitting the reed switch. Try HARD not to damage anything. Parts are very expensive. Unless you are replacing the hydraulic ram do not loosen the clevis.





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    The nut we are looking for next is at the bottom of the Hydraulic ram where the arrow is. Put your finger on it and find it. Then read the next step.




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    Next we are going to remove this 12" long bolt/axle doohicky, thingamabob. The ram sits on this right where the arrow is. See above photo. So get a 1/2" socket with a small 1" extension and feel your way to the bottom of the ram and remove this nut. (The manual erroneously calls it a bolt). Now you can slide the ram off the bolt and move it out of the way. No need to remove the hydraulic line.
    Next you will need a 3/4" wrench and a 3/4" socket on a short extension. You will be removing the 3/4" nut that is now accessible because you got the 1/2" nut and ram off. You will have to use the socket on the inside side of the float. I know that normally we try to turn the nut and hold the bolt but in this case you will use the wrench on the ram side of the float and you will use the socket to turn the bolt/axle. Through the opening in the little bulkhead in there. Once you have the nut off we will be removing the bolt. You might need to go under the float and spray some penetrating oil on the openings that this bolt goes through. You will see it once you get down there. It can be a bear to get out unless you used that good grease noted above last season. Then it just slides right out. You might be able to use a series of dowels 1", 2", 3" long etc to tap the bolt out. It is a tight fit down in the opening.





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    It will help to wiggle this tube while you are trying to pull that axle out. You will be laying on the float, trying to take the pressure/weight off of the axle by wiggling this, while twisting and pulling the axle. After you get this out take a break. You will need it.....LOL. This is the hardest part.
    If you still can't get the bolt out, try loosening the side plate nut/bolts (4 on each side). You will need to pull the lever arm out, that will free up the shock donut assembly, so you can move it around to get to the side plate nuts/bolts. See below on removing the lever arm.




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    Now we will remove the two bolts here. It is easiest to use a long extension on the socket. This is the lever arm. As mentioned above you might have to remove these to get the clevis pin out of the clevis and lever arm assembly in the steps above.



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    Now we can pull the retract lever arm out. This will cause the top of the mechanism to drop down. It will probably make a racket (unless it is binding due to lack of maintenance and grease and will not move). Its OK. Let it drop. You will be moving that part of the mechanism around in order to get to the 8 bolts that hold the sides on.





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    Now get your 3/4" wrench and socket and lay on the floor. We will remove this bolt. That will then allow you to remove the axle assembly.




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    The axle assembly looks like this.



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    This is the grease zerk assembly that is in the end of the axle. It may or may not come out. It can be a challenge to get out. It has 2 "O" rings that you might need to replace. Basically if it does not come out I would not mess with it. It is held in place by the cotter pin that holds the axle wheel nut on.



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    Next we will remove the main assembly. Looks like this. There are four 3/8" bolts on each side. So you get to remove 8 of the little suckers. You will be once again laying on the float. It is easiest to hold the wrench on the inside and use the socket on the nut. Keep up with the washers. All the bolts are the same length but the thickness of the metal they go through varies based on the doublers so they have different numbers of washers to make sure the nut does not bottom out on the threads. The unit will come out the bottom when all 8 bolts are out (4 per side)
    This is a MESSY NASTY job. Be sure to wear a shirt you want to throw away when you are done.

    Next we will remove the two bolts & nuts as shown above. Now you can take things apart.


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    You will have to remove the outer two grease zerks to get the axle out. No need to remove the middle one. I don't take the donuts apart. I just clean things and inspect. If your donuts are cracked you will need to remove and replace.

    So now we clean the heck out of everything. Inspect for wear and cracks and stuff like that. Reassemble using the good grease and install using the reverse order. VERY IMPORTANT When you put the side panels back in just put the top bolt on each side and leave the nut loose. Then put the lever arm through to line up those holes, (no need to thread it through the donut assembly right now, we are just using it to line things up) Next put that long 12" bolt through the bottom holes and thread it through the axle assembly when you do. With these two bolts threaded through it lines things up. Now put in the remaining 6 side plate nuts and bolts and tighten all 8 up. There are a few more notes on how to do this a few post below this.

    You might need a small bullet to get the clevis pin back in the retract lever arm. You might need to move the hydraulic ram via the standby hydraulic pump to help line things up to get the lever arm (which is now threaded through the donut shock assembly) attached to the ram.


    You will also be looking at the wheel bearings and races, replacing as necessary, repacking etc. It is also a good time to replace the brake shoes. Here is a link to that info

    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...l=1#post651394

    More to follow

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-25-2020 at 02:37 PM.
    Very Blessed.
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  3. #2203
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Bill where did you get the grease from?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #2204

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    sortve spendy 14 bucks a tube but if it works. 2 tubes free shipping.https://locknlube.com/products/trc-8...dual-cartridge
    Last edited by tempdoug; 01-30-2020 at 05:40 PM.

  5. #2205
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Yeah, it ain't cheap but man it is good. Amazon.com



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    When you get to the part where you are installing that long 12" bolt....here is a trick that might help. Lift the axle assembly up and you will see where the axle goes through. Slide a 5/16 x 1/4" drive deep socket in the outside bearing hole to hold things in alignment. The short arrow points to my socket and the long arrow is where the axle goes through. It can be tough to get this sucker in. Lay on top of the float and get one hand on the axle assembly so you can lift and wiggle while the other hand is down in the float pushing on the bolt. Wiggle that part like when you took it out. Don't forget to get the socket from the outside float bay where it will drop when pushed out by the axle.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-25-2020 at 01:49 PM.
    Very Blessed.

  6. #2206

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    What percentage of your Alaska flights find you landing on the ground?

    Are your trips possible with straight floats?

  7. #2207
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Paul
    yes it could certainly be done on straight floats. The only gotcha is the fuel will all be on salt water docks, so.... on straight floats you will have to be OK landing in salt. But that will open lots of cool places to go to as well. It’s a trade off.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  8. #2208
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Wip 2100A Front Assembly Rebuild


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    REALLY IMPORTANT!!!
    This bolt head with a grease zerk has a roll pin in it. When you take the nut off the other side DO NOT allow this side to rotate or you will shear the roll pin off and could create a lot of work for yourself.


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    The other side of this axle has a pretty standard nylon insert nut....3/4" wrench. Remember to lock the other side so it does not rotate when you take this nut off.


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    This is the roll pin. It is there to keep the axle from rotating so the bearings do the work. Note the washer has a cut out for the roll pin so don't loose this washer.


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    This is the hole in the axle head that the roll pin goes into.


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    Next we will take off the front gear assembly. These four bolts. Be sure to keep the bolts and washers in order. They are not all the same and it is a tight fit back there when the gear retracts. If you get them out of place it is going to crunch something when you retract the gear.


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ID:	47030The two bolts on the bottom (closest to the wheel) are longer than the top. As the gear retracts the geometry is such that this provides clearance. For whatever reason these bolts are not listed in the parts manual so be careful here.


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    Be sure to check the bulkheads that the hydraulic ram goes through for cracks. If you get the travel out of adjustment (too long) the gear will hit the stop before the ram hits the end of its travel and that will in turn put pressure on the bulkheads, causing them to flex and at some point crack. So...... check for cracks.



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    Another bulkhead, another place to look for cracks.



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    You will need to be able to move the front hydraulic ram. I used the stand-by hand pump and a couple of extra hoses to connect it. No big deal.
    A= Up B= down S= a reservoir of Hyd fluid.
    We will use the pump to retract the front gear (the main may move as well depending on where the fluid is) to place the ram arm in the right (accessible) location.


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    We want this threaded clevis right here so we can unscrew it. There is a lock nut, then you will actually be rotating the ram piston arm to take it off the clevis. This will allow us to get the trolly out the front. This takes patience to unscrew as you can only turn it about 1/8 of a turn per wrench setting. This is also where we adjust the length to avoid cracking the bulkheads.



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ID:	47035This long bolt sets the side to side play and we need to remove it to get the trolly out. When you pull the bolt out don't let the trolly fall to the floor. You might damage it.


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ID:	47036This is the trolly assembly. The black Delrin slides on the side are what we will be checking. Along with the usual clean, inspect, lubricate and reassemble.


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ID:	47037This is what it looks like up in there once the trolly is out of the way. Check the back wall (bulkhead) for cracks. The side arrow shows the rail that the Delrin blocks slide in.
    The arrows on the front are scrapes from a former life where a mechanic (pilot, or someone) did not keep those 4 bolts that hold the gear leg on to the trolly in the right order. Or he did not use the right washers in the right places. I recommend you do one float at a time, then you can use the other float as an example if you get lost or can't remember how something should go back together. Assuming it was right to start with.



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ID:	47038Those little Delrin blocks should slide easily in the tracks. Check each one. This is important. If they bind the hydraulics will have plenty of force/leverage to force it to move but this will then put a lot of stress on the bulkheads holding the ram and probably cause a crack. These blocks will swell over time, especially if you make hard landings or operate from rough runways. They are expensive to replace so I recommend you treat the nose gear with respect. You need to check these blocks and make sure the trolly moves freely every season. You can sand the sides of the blocks to make them slide in the rails. I used 220 paper on a flat surface, followed by 600, 1000, 1500 and finally 2000 grit. Then polishing compound and a dremel tool. You will probably be taking 15 to 20 thousand off. They might mike at .765 and they will need to be about .750




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    There are three axles in the trolly. Roll them on a flat (glass) surface and make sure they are not bent. Clean, inspect, lubricate and reassemble. Be careful with the snap rings. If one flies off it could be hard to find.



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    Trolly parts.



    More to follow. Be sure to follow the Wip manual but hopefully this will supplement things and make it easier.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-27-2020 at 08:01 AM.
    Very Blessed.
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  9. #2209
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Good point on that pin for the nose wheel axle bolt. Wish they had used a lock tab like the Scott tailwheel. Told an employee about it whan I asked him to remove the wheel to change the tire. He changed the tire and reassembled but I had this feeling. Jack the float back up and removed and sure enough he sheared it.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  10. #2210

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    I wish I had someone like you as my high school shop teacher and next door neighbor.

    Thank you for the effort to educate us. Your posts are priceless.
    Thanks Bill Rusk thanked for this post
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  11. #2211
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    We cleaned, inspected, lubricated and reassembled the trolley. Clean up in the box that the trolley goes into and use a dry silicon spray to lubricate the slots/rails the delrin slides go into.


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ID:	47160When you put the trolley back in make sure these two grease openings face out. You will need a needle adaptor for your grease gun to use these. Don't forget the long bolt that goes under the trolley that sets the side to side play for the trolley rails.


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ID:	47161This is what we will overhaul next. You don't need to remove these 4 bolts and nuts at this time, perhaps not at all. The white gear leg is not aluminum, it is fiberglass.....just so you know.


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    The arrow on the left points to the four bolts you don't need to mess with right now. The center elevated and locked hex head screw is the tension adjustment for the amount or force it takes to break the wheel out of the center and into full swivel. If your floats are working OK in this regard, then don't mess with this screw. Remove the 4 hex head screws at this time. There is a spring in there so take the screws out a little at a time so the part does not twist. 1/2 turn for each screw at a time. It will not fly apart. You will hit the end of the spring tension before the screws are unthreaded. There is a cap, spring, and plate in there. The plate (like a big solid washer) may not come out, if so its OK, just leave it in. You can see the parts in a later picture.


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ID:	47163Behind that assembly will be this opening that the cap goes in. Note the ball. It should stay in there....it is captured. Wipe the grease out so you can see it. Remove the bolt and nut that are right next to that grease zerk on the right side in the picture above. The ball will not come out until you get that bolt (7/16 wrench/socket) out. Now.......


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ID:	47164You can't take this apart until you get the ball out. To do so push down from the top and rotate. The ball should pop out. Put your hand over it so you don't loose the ball. That would be bad. Sometimes you have to use a little pick or screwdriver to help the ball pop out. You have to push down to take the pressure off of the ball. No pushie down, no ballie gonna pop out. Soooo.......
    Push down and rotate. If that does not work....Push down, rotate, and pry at the same time. It helps to hold your tongue in the upper right corner of your mouth.


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    When you pull up (after the ball is out) this is what is inside.


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ID:	47166Another photo. You will clean, inspect, grease the snot out of everything. Can't use too much grease. You want the cavity to be completely full of grease so there is no place for water to collect. After you reassemble, use your grease gun to top it off (so to speak)


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    This shows all the parts. When you reassemble put a light coating of grease between everything that bolts together (like the plates that bolt to the white gear leg) to slow down corrosion. Give all the bolts a liberal coat of grease as well. It is a messy job. Again the arrow shows the part you may or may not want to take apart. It does not hurt to clean and grease between the metal parts, again for corrosion proofing. You should be able to reuse all the bolts. The nuts will depend on condition. As long as the nylon insert seems to be holding and there is no corrosion you can reuse them. I replace the nuts after 4 or 5 uses just because it makes me feel better. Do what works for you.

    Replace wheel bearings and races as required. Fill that axle shaft area with grease to keep the water out. Replace tires if needed.

    Reassemble everything and run the gear up and down several times to make sure it is all working as it should. You have now rebuilt the floats and they are ready for more adventures.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-22-2020 at 04:30 PM.
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  12. #2212

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    Bill
    I am in process of switching from the Whip Electric Hydraulic pump to a manual pump for reduced failure points in my wheel/ski system. I like the looks of the switching Swagelock valve you are utilizing but I notice in some photos you utilize what appears to be a teflon type tape on the adapter fittings and in other photos, no tape is visible. Could you clarify your process for sealing the adapter threads and what type/if any tape was utilized to seal the NPT to AN adapters? Also, can you answer whether or not the return line from the valve to the hydraulic reservoir has any special considerations with regards to the elevations of their respective locations within the aircraft? In other words, does the valve need to be higher than reservoir location? Thanks for all your efforts to document as it is helpful for me in this time of deliberation.
    Regards,
    Bryan

  13. #2213
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Brian

    Thanks for the kind words. The tape was just used in the initial phase as I was putting things together and taking them apart a lot and so I used a little tape to protect the threads and get a seal with minimal torque. The final assembly does not have any tape in any of the unions. I believe the pump and reservoir need to be relatively close to level or perhaps the reservoir very slightly elevated. I don't know how much the pump is able to lift uphill. A few inches and you are probably fine but having the reservoir 2 feet below the pump might not work. To be honest I didn't try that out. I don't think it matters much on the return line as long as you don't get too extreme.

    I have spent the last two days working on the full "certified" system. It works but it has a lot of parts and electrical wires. Lots of failure points. Sure is nice to be experimental and to keep things simple. But if you are certified it is still the best system out there in my opinion.

    If you have difficulty locating a pump let me know. I might be able to help. They can be hard to find and expensive.

    Best of luck. I have sure been pleased with the system so far. About 900 hours.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
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  14. #2214
    AkPA/18's Avatar
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    Has anyone had a failure with the wip elec pump? If so what was it? Thanks
    http://thrustline.com/

    Takeoffs are optional--Landings are mandatory
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  15. #2215
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Good question. I have not heard of failures, so I imagine the system works well....it just looks complicated to me.

    Bill
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  16. #2216
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    Folks

    I have had a friend spend a few days with me in my hangar rebuilding his floats. He has been using the info in the thread above to do the work and it has resulted in a number of changes. Probably more to come as well. If you have inputs I am happy to edit to improve the info.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
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  17. #2217

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    Is this a process you must do every year? It appears to be an enormous effort.

    No offense, but wouldn’t it have been wiser and less expensive to buy straight floats and just rent a hangar at a seaplane base closer to lakes? After all, it’s a long, long way from Poplar Grove to anywhere you would want to go in a 90 mph seaplane.

  18. #2218
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    Paul

    I don't think most folks do this every year, or even every few years, which is NOT GOOD. The front trolley should be free enough to just fall out, but we had to use a hammer and a LOT of force to get it out on this last rebuild. No doubt because the previous owners never overhauled the floats.

    Yes, I do it every year. Partly because I don't want to have problems when up in Alaska, and also I am putting 200 to 250 hours a year on it, which is probably more than most.

    You know......you are right....and I actually considered straight floats, and that exact scenario. It is certainly an option. I sorta did that with my last cub. It was based at New Richmond, WI. where they have a runway and also lake access. About a 5 hour drive from Poplar Grove. Or.....it could be done at Spokane Felts Field which also has runway and water access as well. And then there is Alaska.......so many choices and no right answer.

    Bill
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  19. #2219
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    Folks

    Took a short winter break. Went on a Dive trip with.....

    Dennis Wittenburg - DW -built a Cub, has competed, and recently put his Cub on floats
    Greg Miller - Maulguy - Big Rocks/ Long Props, built several Maules and is finishing another Cub now
    Mark Fiedler - Mark - Building a Javron Cub now. About to start painting. Should fly this fall
    Me - the weak link

    When we weren't diving we were talking Cubs. Oh yeah, a couple of pretty ladies were there too.....


    Here is the video....I hope you enjoy it....





    Bill
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