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Thread: Building a Javron Cub

  1. #401
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Ron - Thank you for the nice words.

    Sorry I have not posted in a while, got distracted, but I expect to get back on it pretty heavy in the next couple of weeks. So..... look for some new posts soon.

    Bill
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  2. #402
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Maybe a dumb question... But why is the aft spar beefed up in this section??

    I tought that the flaps - tank section needed more strenght.
    I was going to box only the center flap hinge and tank aera....???

    Btw, the wings look awsome!!

  3. #403
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    That is where the aft spar was trying to twist, on the Load test that Jay ran, and as soon as it gets out of vertical alignment it will fail.

    Often the only difference between an aerobatic wing and a standard wing is the number of ribs. The actual spar may be the exact same size. Well, you might ask, ribs don't add any strength so why add ribs? Would it not be better to make the spars bigger to handle the increased G loads? The extra ribs keep the spars in alignment, preventing them from twisting or bowing out of alignment, and thus setting up a failure. It is all about keeping that spar straight and vertical.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
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  4. #404
    pittsdriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainlandCub View Post
    Nice. Where did you get that turn and slip and what make are the engine dials?

    Thanks,
    Andrew.
    Got the Turn and Slip from a guy in Australia. It also has a starter pushbutton from a Spitfire. Gauges are UMA but I would not use UMA again. All of the guages were sent to an instrument shop and refaced so all the colors and fonts are the same. For kicks they also have a logo we made up "Chapton Hill Co
    Limited Sydney." Also the vertical card compass has a Cub silkscreened on the glass as a pointer instead of the usual swept wing jet. All just fun stuff.
    Bill, I really like that wing. Can't wait to see the empty weight. Don
    Vans RV7 finished 2008
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  5. #405
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Hi guys, I'm back

    Lets talk a little about fuel lines and routing. All fuel lines must be secured and well protected from chafing. You can't just let them rub against things.
    When you can use adel clamps like this it works well. This is the right rear pick up line going aft around the baggage area. I ran this line outside as I will be using a fabric headliner and this routing will give the least profile. It will just follow the bottom of the wing to fuselage junction. It will only be noticeable to someone who really knows cubs and is very observant, like Jason Gerard or Steve Pierce.


    Another photo of the same line.



    Now here is a mistake. I had a helper and I did not give enough direction. The line needs to be as low as you can get it to the structure to ensure that it is even with, or below, the outflow from the tank. The picture below shows it about an inch above the structure. Not good......



    This is where it should be ...... note it is sitting on the structure.....



    All of your fuel lines should be as low as you can get them at the pick up points and they should all go in a continuous line downhill to the low point, drain, fuel valve etc. You do not want a place for water to gather except at the sump. There are places where the adel clamps just don't work out, so here is another idea. Wrap the fuel line with cloth tape, or I like to use plastic tubing like Nylaflow, then wrap it to the structure with flat rib stitching cord. Smear a little epoxy over it all when done and it will hold quite well and have a minimum bulge under fabric. Tie wraps are not such a good idea unless you protect the fuel line quite well as they will chafe right through aluminum lines (steel too).









    Here is a place where I used cloth tape and smeared a little epoxy on there as well.



    This is the right rear line again. It will transition inside to prevent showing through the fabric on the outside. This will have a different routing if you are going to use a metal headliner. I will have a bulge for a few inches inside the headliner until it goes behind the side panels, but again I don't think it will be all that noticeable. Note that this is the only junction, or joint in my fuel lines. Each junction is an opportunity for a leak and also quite possibly a reduction in flow. Even if you have to scrap a little fuel line and re-bend em a few times, try to get the lines in without a bunch of joinings.



    Another rib stich cord attachment.


    Not the best picture but the left rear line runs down in the gap between the window channel and the structural tube. This is an easy one and when its all covered and painted no one will know its there.



    More to follow

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  6. #406
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Here are some photos of my interior panels. My floor sits on the lower longerons so I have to box the cables. This is really a pain and I'm not sure it is worth the time and effort on this one to save a couple of pounds. Most extended baggages have a shelf built in above the lower longerons so the cables run under the floor. It would be a lot easier to do it that way. But I'm pretty nutty about weight so.........

    This panel was cut in error so I had to rivet on a box. This will be covered with fabric so it will not show the seam or rivets when complete.



    End view of the boxed cable.......



    Outside view of boxed area......



    Photo showing nutplate location ideas......








    This is the left rear panel (not complete) but it shows the shape. Note on this one I was a little more careful and cut it so I could do all the bends for the box and I did not have to rivet on a separate piece. I still need to box the rear flap pulley. Again, this area, and forward, the interior panels are .016 aluminum and they will have a tweed type fabric glued on which will give a more refined finished look to the interior. It will add a little weight but I just like it better that way. My opinion only.




    Forward panel. I put a little bend in the middle so it fits close to the diagonal tube.



    Hope this helps

    Bill
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  7. #407

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    Bill, Your project is looking really great. I just finished running
    Fuel line. I haven't insulated it yet. Where do you buy your Nylaflow?

  8. #408
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    Nice work.

    I thought the CC headerless system had rubber line joints in the long runs to prevent cracking.

    I'm surprised you didn't make whole new panel rather than scabbing a piece on. You know, weight and all.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
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  9. #409
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Greg

    I got it at Spruce. Just be sure to get the ID of the nylaflow to match the OD of the fuel line. Split it open with a single edge razor and be careful or have Kimmie standing by with bandaids.

    Doc - man,... I just could not bring myself to throw away that big chunk of aluminum. That stuff is really getting expensive. I think CC is using an all nylon poly flow type tubing now. Might be lighter........oh boy.... here we go......

    Bill
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  10. #410
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Bill I wonder if heat shrink tubing over your nylaflow would capture it to the fuel line before tying it off? Looks great, thanks for sharing.

    Glenn

  11. #411
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Bill, How will you attach the wing root fairing to the fuselage with the fuel line on the outside of the 3/8" channel?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post



    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Doc - man,... I just could not bring myself to throw away that big chunk of aluminum. That stuff is really getting expensive. I think CC is using an all nylon poly flow type tubing now. Might be lighter........oh boy.... here we go......
    Bill
    Just bustin' yer chops, man.
    You mention the weight factor a lot. Every little bit helps.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
    --- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner

  13. #413
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Tied my liines off with koroseal with a cross-wrap for stand-off, so no need to sleeve. I like koroseal because it's somewhat elastic so stays tight - no chafe. But it's bulky compared to the rib lacing cord - -
    Gordon

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  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Bill, How will you attach the wing root fairing to the fuselage with the fuel line on the outside of the 3/8" channel?
    I was thinking that the fuel line needed to turn in by the square upright...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  15. #415

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    Heat Shrink.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Bill I wonder if heat shrink tubing over your nylaflow would capture it to the fuel line before tying it off? Looks great, thanks for sharing.

    Glenn
    Yes I agree. I use some sort of plastic tubing where you want a lot of protection held in place with heat shrink. There are two types of heat shrink I can get here, one has glue on the inside that activates with heat and is heavier wall than standard heat shrink. This holds in place really well and is good enough protection on its own in many instances. And if you want extra protection, put on two layers. I would probably want heat shrink under the P-clips too, but then that is just me...... You need to plan ahead a bit with the heat shrink and slide it on before doing the flares or beads.

    Great pictures, again thanks for sharing.

    Andrew.

  16. #416

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    Would anyone have a picture of cubcrafters carbon front seat frame? I didnt want to start another thread and i thought this would be interesting for a light cub build. I have never seen one.

  17. #417
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Steve - I don't know yet. I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there. There are so many times I wished I lived near enough to have your help. You see stuff I don't, and you see it way before I do. I don't think it will be a big problem but I may be wrong again. Thanks for making me think about it.

    George - at the upright it will start to be hidden as the fabric is held away by the upper stringer. It will only show as a slight bulge under the fabric for a few inches and it will be right under the wing to fuselage junction so I don't think most folks will even notice it. Certainly less visible that the last time where it ran inside the cabin. Ugly.

    Shrink wrap would work well also. Lots of ways to do it.

    Bill
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  18. #418
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    Would anyone have a picture of cubcrafters carbon front seat frame? I didnt want to start another thread and i thought this would be interesting for a light cub build. I have never seen one.



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    The base is molded into the floorboard - all one piece.

    I took this picture recently after installing an experimental 3 pound Lithium Iron 500 CCA battery. The two white nylon strips are not part of the original base. I added them to tighten the fit between the base and seat.

    And the elt is held captive in the molded pocket.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
    Thanks Helios thanked for this post

  19. #419

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    Can i be picky? would you have a side view? thanks

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    Can i be picky? would you have a side view? thanks
    It looks like this is as close as I have to a side view. But it also shows the plastic fuel lines that Bill mentions. Very easy to install compared to making and fitting aluminum lines. I did that in my previous Super Cub.

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    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  21. #421

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    Thanks, a lot of us have never seen the skeleton of a carbon cub. Thanks again for taking the time.

  22. #422
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Here are the fuel lines in a stock Super Cub.

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    With the line run on the outside your wing root panel will not fit flush and you put a weird curve in the 1/2" 90 degree bend of your aft wing root fairing. You can see the holes where the fairing screws on. Don't ask me why this all stands out for me.

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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  23. #423
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Thanks Steve, great photos and info.

    Bill
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  24. #424
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    If you have your flaps extended inboard, The wing root panels don't go nearly as far back. Then you just have to massage the shape to fit around the odd shape created by the fuel line. Some of the rubber welt used in the landing/taxi light assemblies placed on the edge will keep the fairing from rubbing through the fabric.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
    --- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner

  25. #425
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Gents

    Taking all your helpful comments into the hangar, I did a little experimentation today. Here is a little trick that you might find useful. Take an old bed sheet and some spring clamps and stretch it tightly over the part where you want to see how the lines of the fabric will lay.

    Here you can see where I think the wing trailing edge will lie and where I will have a slight bulge under the fabric. You can see the shadow here of the fuel line. Once painted white it will be very hard to see. I am comfortable with this.





    As you can see it fades out as the fabric is lifted away from the fuel line by the stringers and other structure just past the small vertical "C" channel.



    This is the other side. It remains inside the fabric.



    There will be a short print on the inside of my headliner until it goes behind the side wall.



    I am not saying anyone should do it this way, just trying to give you things to look for and consider as you do your own build. If you are using a metal headliner all the fuel lines will run inside like the pictures above from Steve Pierce, then the metal headliner will cover them.

    Here is what a paper interior pattern looks like when under construction.



    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  26. #426
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Running fuel lines anywhere close to outside fabic/fairings/structure in the prop wash area is a really bad idea. I'd run them inside the structure like Piper did to keep them protected.

  27. #427
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    Joints like this that are hidden between a ceconite headliner and the exterior fabric with no way to access them should be avoided. Move the joint back and around the corner to the section that crosses the fuse where the header tank would normally be. That way you have access from the upper baggage area. Also I would use a flexible connection like Piper did with hose and clamps instead of an "AN" fitting. Either way if you have trouble with a fuel line you'll be cutting fabric to replace it. Make sure to pressure test the fuel system before covering. Also make sure your flap cable will clear the fuel line.


    Jason
    Last edited by jgerard; 12-05-2012 at 07:14 PM.

  28. #428
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    ...and if you're shooting for perfection and long term service.........etch, alodine, and epoxy prime those aluminum fuel lines.

    ...seen plenty of them with tiny pinholes from corrosion...Plenty of 'em. .....seems like usually Cessna's, though. Probably Cubs get new fuel lines every cover/20years. Cessna lines have been in there since the 50's, 60,'s, and 70's.

  29. #429
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Gents

    Taking into consideration the good suggestions from Mark and Jason I have rerouted the right rear fuel line inside and also put the joint in an accessible location. It now looks like this.....



    And the joint will be accessible from the upper baggage area.....




    Here is another thought. Craigs list. Watch it daily and you can find some great deals on tools. I picked up this 52" foot shear a couple of weeks ago. It needed a little clean up but it has a good blade and makes very nice clean cuts. You do not need one to build a Cub but you can find all sorts of stuff if you look.



    Another thought.... I got this tripod and really like it. It is a Slik. It is light weight, folds up pretty small and it will hold all of the smaller digital cameras just fine and even a 35mm style as long as you are not using a monster Binford 5000 telephoto lens. Great for camping etc. It is a full size unit, not one of the table top or clamp on shorties. I have been very pleased with it. My last one went down the river so I got another just like it.





    It makes it a little easier to take a few photos like this to prove to the FAA that you really did build the airplane.




    More random thoughts. The Dremel moto tool is something that is really handy and you will probably use it a bunch. Be sure to get a variable speed unit. The Dremel I got as a teenager for building models finally bit the dust after 40 years (man, ya just can't get good stuff anymore, nothing lasts, heck it was barely out of warranty ) so I had to replace it. If this one is still working 40 years from now I'll will it to my son.



    Tip - you can drill through a nutplate. A #40 drill bit will fit in a #6 nut plate without hitting the threads (much) and if you are careful you can drill from the backside to locate screw holes. The hole will have to be enlarged for a #6 screw but it can be really handy to get the hole in exactly the right place. You can also use a variety of hole finder tools but this technique might help.

    Nutplate.......



    Drilling through the nutplate, be careful to go straight so you do not damage the threads in the nutplate.....




    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  30. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post

    Tip - you can drill through a nutplate. A #40 drill bit will fit in a #6 nut plate without hitting the threads (much) and if you are careful you can drill from the backside to locate screw holes. The hole will have to be enlarged for a #6 screw but it can be really handy to get the hole in exactly the right place. You can also use a variety of hole finder tools but this technique might help.

    Nutplate.......



    Drilling through the nutplate, be careful to go straight so you do not damage the threads in the nutplate.....




    Hope this helps

    Bill
    I know it's too late at this stage, but if you build your interior before installing the nutplates, you can drill the #40 pilot hole through both the tab and panel at the same time.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
    --- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner

  31. #431
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    You can also sand/grind some of the twist off about 1/16" up the twist to narrow and dull it because all you are using in sheet stock is the tip. Less chance to get the threads.

    Glenn

  32. #432
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    Great to see your progress, Bill. I'm still patiently searching for a good PA-18-95. Sometimes I wish I would have spent the past year building one instead of trying to buy one.

    I agree that craigslist can be an excellent source for used tools. But you do have to keep on top of it - the good stuff goes fast. I use Google Reader to aggregate RSS feeds containing craigslist search results. It's easy to see at a glance if anything new pops up.

    The Dremel sure is handy. I already have a bunch of Milwaukee M12 cordless tools, so I went with their dremel-like offering. Definitely recommended. I also picked up a little router jig that the dremel screws into. It's meant for guitar building, but it worked perfectly for trimming the plywood gussets off of my Pietenpol ribs.

  33. #433
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Roto Zip works great for holes of all shapes in AL sheet.

    Glenn

  34. #434
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Great ideas and suggestions guys.

    Someone asked about welding in tubing for the upper stringers. It is a fairly common mod up in Alaska. As best I can tell from a calculated standpoint (Vs actually weighing it) the weight penalty will be about 18oz. The top three stringers (using Univair stringers like in my build shown previously in this thread) are 113" long for the top two outside stringers at 12.85oz each and the center is 110" at 13.81oz for a total of 336 inches weighing 38.49oz. The equivalent tubing of 3/8 .035 will weigh 56.8 oz. according to the Acft Spruce catalog. Hope this helps John

    Bill
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  35. #435
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    Bill, Here is how I did mine. I used adel clamps on everything and I can get to all of the fittings. Has worked perfectly for over 100hrs. Don
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  36. #436
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    ...and if you're shooting for perfection and long term service.........etch, alodine, and epoxy prime those aluminum fuel lines....

    thats also why i Use the strait HARD anodized fuel lines reeve sells, it has the protective coating on/in it, instead of the soft pure uncoated, rolled tubing....

    someday I want to get set up for anodizing, but the shipping issues for the caustics to alaska has been an issue...
    http://www.caswellplating.com/standa...izing-kit.html

  37. #437
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Don, nice looking installation.
    Mike - I use the straight stuff too, but didn't know about the finish. The coiled stuff is a pain to get straight. Thanks

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    thats also why i Use the strait HARD anodized fuel lines reeve sells, it has the protective coating on/in it, instead of the soft pure uncoated, rolled tubing....
    Isn't the "protective coating" pure aluminum over the alloy or are you talking about something else? Alloys corrode thats why they plate them with pure al. I used to use the hard plated tubes just "cuz" till I noticed they seem to corrode faster, don't know if they react more with fuel or what, (I don't think they plate the inside). Went back to staight aluminum tube for fuel and save the alloy for high pressure hydraulics.

  39. #439
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Plenty of the corroded old Cessna fuel lines are corroded from the inside out. Most of them that I've seen are so.

    These days, I get a warm fuzzy from etch, alodine, and priming lines on the outside.

    But that won't help inside-out corrosion, just like anodizing won't help.

  40. #440
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Bill, I'm glad to see you re-routed that line.

    That was kindof bothering me.

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    By jtgibson in forum Experimental Cubs
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-01-2009, 06:15 AM

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