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Thread: Building a Javron Cub

  1. #201
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Jim

    Great info. That is just what we need. Thanks for sharing.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  2. #202

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    Hi Bill I have been talking to Jay for a long time even about you and your project and I had all kinds of ideas but aafter seeing your frame i think I will have jay build one for me just like it. I think Wayne at Backcounty is a trim motor that dose not have to have limit sw. About the supercub community being informed today or 5 year ago how in 1968 when I built the plane that I am flying that wieghtis 1100 with a o -360. The best to more Wieght of is go on a Diet.Ron

  3. #203
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Ron

    Wow, if you built an 0-360 Cub less than 1100 pounds back then, without all the lightweight stuff we have now, you are someone I need to talk to.
    Well the good news is that if you get a frame like mine you will just have to follow this thread and you will be set. It is all going to be here, Lord willing.
    I agree on the diet. I have lost 5 pounds since Jan 1st. I hope to drop another 10 which will put me at 165. I think it will be pretty tough to get much less than that.

    Chris Hatin should be here any minute for a visit, as he is passing through town. I am looking forward to talking to the CEO of Bushwacker Acft.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  4. #204

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    Bill, some of the guys up here are using a thin aluminum tread plate stuff for floorboards that looks pretty neat and light and durable also look at atlees safari seat they offer also sortve neat. www.fadodge.com

  5. #205
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Was not lucky enough to find less then .060 aluminium diamond plate. Does it exist??

    For the wing roots, I did let it open when modifing my plane. Not for weight saving but for storage. It's harder to seal for the rain, but I find those opening very practical for small stuff like water bottles, cellphone, satphone, headsets, cameras, etc...


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    Is it necessary to fabricate the steel ''leading edge form at the fuselage'' if you leave it open??


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  6. #206

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    Oli, i like it. Also your flap setup, cool. Is that your own design? MTV if your reading this maybe you could ask Lowell where hes getting his floorboard diamond plate, and ive seen others using it. If we get the source we can find out the thickness. doug

  7. #207
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    I would think that cork would hold moisture against the frame ?

    Glenn
    Felt would-Cork won't

    Cork floats and it's been used by other manufactures to isolate floors from tubing for years. The Helio Courier is the first plane that comes to mind, I think the Beaver does in some areas too but I can't remember for sure. The adhesive backing is a sealed layer between the tube and the cork so no moisture would get in there. You should never leave steel in primer because primer is porous, ALL primers should be top coated with paint for maximum corrosion protection. There shouldn't ever be any water inside the fuse in that area unless you're hosing it out to remove blood or worse.... Puke! LOL

    You will have way more moisture build up between the side fabric and the bottom longerons. I have seen tubes corroded right along that crotch where dirt and water collect between the fabric and the tube.



    Jason

  8. #208

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    Hi Bill . Chris Hatin must be a busy boy,Jay saidhe just picked up three frames yesterday. I live in Madrus Or about 100 m from D W . Cell #5412316323 give me call some I can tell you of S C lies. Ron

  9. #209
    Bushwhacker Air's Avatar
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    Had a great - albeit too short - visit with Bill. The fuse is gorgeous, and Bill's attention to detail is sure to be evident as he progresses with his build. Thanks for the invite, Bill.

    Hey Ron - too busy!! Now to get them finished!! Spent 4 months aquiring our new airport and building the new shop, so Jay helped me out. Jay's work is perfect and his crew is top knotch.
    Chris Hatin
    Bushwhacker Aircraft Company, LLC
    www.bushwhackerair.com
    Properly trained, a man can be a dogs best friend...

  10. #210
    flybynite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    2 things I saw might need checking...

    on the elevator cables bellow floor thingys.. will you be adding some form of rub blocks to them?? maybe a piece of ski bottom UHMW plastic with a hole in it for cables riveted to front sides.... I would think over time those will sag and rub????
    Mike,

    The system uses pulleys to route the elevator cables under and just off the tubes.

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    Similar to the trim cable pulleys shown here. Is that what you had in mind?

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    Wayne

  11. #211

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    Just finished my interior panels made from .060 kydex. Weights are as follows.

    Left front side. 1.45
    Left side. 3.18
    Left rear side. 1.69
    Right front. 1.45
    Right side. 2.05
    Right rear side. .94
    Rear upper bulkhead. 1.08
    Rear lower bulkhead. 1.49


    Total. 13.74 pounds

    The Kydex is fun stuff to work with and makes a very nice interior.

  12. #212
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    Mike,

    The system uses pulleys to route the elevator cables under and just off the tubes.

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    Similar to the trim cable pulleys shown here. Is that what you had in mind?

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    Wayne
    I just figure they will sag and vibrate on the metal stringer standoffs over time, from what I could see......
    Thanks MBSUPERCUB thanked for this post

  13. #213

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    But the elevator cable system is a "closed loop" with tension at all times no matter the elevator/stick position. not like the rudders thatare not "closed loop".

    John Scott

  14. #214
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I wonder what thickness will you use for the boot cowl? Is .025 6061 T6 enough??

  15. #215
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longwinglover View Post
    But the elevator cable system is a "closed loop" with tension at all times no matter the elevator/stick position. not like the rudders thatare not "closed loop".

    John Scott
    just patched more than one belly fabric from elevator cables rubbing through from sagging(though NOT set up high like his, in those standoffs... that's why I ask..)

  16. #216
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Mike

    I agree, just to be on the safe side I'll do a little UMHV in there.

    Olibuilt Factory was .020, Javron uses .025, and Backcountry uses .032.

    I am looking into Carbon Fiber, researching.......

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  17. #217
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Factory used .020" thick 3003 aluminum for the boot cowl. I use .020" 2024T-3, stronger and no extra weight. Patched too many cracked and dented boot cowls.

    http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...minumalloy.pdf
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  18. #218

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    Bill, Randy at Plaschem anc has a 3 piece carbon fiber boot cowl that I used with Clyde's ss firewall. It works great for access behind instrument panel and saved about 4 lbs

  19. #219

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    Bill, I never heard of Plaschem but it sounds good. PM Paul Romine. I think he made a complete carbon fiber boot cowl.

  20. #220

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    One source for carbon fiber engine cowls, look under other parts non-certified. www.selkirk-aviation.com

  21. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Factory used .020" thick 3003 aluminum for the boot cowl. I use .020" 2024T-3, stronger and no extra weight. Patched too many cracked and dented boot cowls.

    http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...minumalloy.pdf
    How do you attach to the firewall Steve? You won't do the factory crimped flange with the 2024.

    Yeah, you never want to lean against a 3003 boot cowl do you!

    Andrew.

  22. #222
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    The titanium firewall has a 90° flange to the rear pre-bent into it

    Jason

  23. #223
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    There are a couple of ways to do it. Titanium firewall from Atlee Dodge that has a 90 degree angle crimped in it going backwards. Building one now and takes a little extra fluting to fit the contour of the boot cowl channels. You can cut the bootcowl off of you existing firewall leaving an 1" or so lip to rivet flat sheet metal to. Another is to buy a stainless firewall form Clyde Smith and a have him rivet an aluminum angle on the back side to attach the boot cowl sheet metal to or if you have a shrinker make the angle yourself. 3003 aluminum works well for the angle.
    Steve Pierce

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  24. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    There are a couple of ways to do it. Titanium firewall from Atlee Dodge that has a 90 degree angle crimped in it going backwards. Building one now and takes a little extra fluting to fit the contour of the boot cowl channels. You can cut the bootcowl off of you existing firewall leaving an 1" or so lip to rivet flat sheet metal to. Another is to buy a stainless firewall form Clyde Smith and a have him rivet an aluminum angle on the back side to attach the boot cowl sheet metal to or if you have a shrinker make the angle yourself. 3003 aluminum works well for the angle.
    Thanks Steve. Interesting to hear your techniques. Did the shrinker thing on my last one but that was around the bottom, wanted screw on panels. The top was soft with the crimps or flutes as per Piper. Tend to make everything here rather than buy from US due to the cost of shipping and the exchange rate.

    Andrew.

  25. #225

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    I got a SS firewall from Clyde Smith Jr. for my -12. He uses the flange riveted to the back of the entire firewall. Instead of riveting, the front of the boot cowl to the firewall, I nut plated the flange so I could screw the bootcowl. It was way more work and cost but in the end, I think it is worth it. My thinking was that if I had to take it off, I could unscrew everything. I used countersunk screws so my boot cowl would fit nicely over the flange of the firewall. I believe this flange is 3/4" wide. Clyde told me I'd have to cut off my cowl attach channels by 3/4" because of the flange. This flange was originally designed on the -14s. He is using these because the flange takes the stress out of the "L" shaped attach brackets that were normally used on the -12s which caused the cowlings to crack in those areas. If you use your own firewall, I believe Clyde will sell the flange seperate. Check them out on his website to be sure.

  26. #226
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    Finally got around to starting work on this thing. One of the first things I have now noticed is just how fantastic it is to have all the hardware packaged and labeled. The Smithcub did not feature this. Doing a part like installing the front seat? Just get the hardware package labeled front seat and you have everything you need. THIS IS JUST SOOOO much easier and better.

    If I were doing a certified rebuild or scratch building I would call Jay at Javron and order a hardware kit.

    It has pretty much everything including, cotter pins, washers, fiber washers, bushings, nuts, bolts, screws, etc. Man this would have saved a fortune, a bunch of money, and time from figuring it out, buying a whole lot of unnecessary stuff, waiting for stuff to come in and general grief.

    This is just soooo COOL.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  27. #227

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    Way cool Bill. The next cool thing you will discover is the fit and function of the torque tube, rudder pedals, etc. Good stuff indeed. Have fun.

  28. #228
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    I agree, what a time saver that would be!

  29. #229
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    Bill, remember to keep taking pictures and posting them. Like to follow along. I started buying parts from Javron also and sure like what I see.

  30. #230
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    You mean somebody tells you what bolts and hardware to use? What a novel concept. Nothing like that in my "scratch" built plans. By the way, "scratch" means scratching ones head because I often just don't get it!!!
    Thank goodness for Super Cub.org
    Marty57
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  31. #231
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    STRINGER INSTALL

    Folks

    Started out easy by installing the stringers. First thing I noticed was the C channel was a little too long on the left side so I cut off the part I put the black stripes on. Could have left it but hey that saved .120 of an ounce.



    Now it looks like this. But notice the bump where the stringer goes into the channel. That will show up as a ugly wrinkle in your fabric job.




    So notch the stringer with your belt/disc sander and a file. I prefer to have the stringer just a little proud of the C channel so I can get it perfectly smooth with just a few passes with a file and sandpaper.




    I also used a#50 drill and MS24665-132 cotterpins to hold the side and bottom stringers on. If you use #6 screws and nuts it will add about 1 ounce per stringer. Some folks use safety wire but the cotterpins can be put in and out while you are fitting things. One thing about building is that you will put it together and take it apart a BUNCH of times. Don't fight it. Get used to it. There are a couple of places where you can't get the drill in there so you have to use one of these.....



    This is an angle drill attachment. You will use it quite often. You will also break the drills often as well so just buy some extra bits up front. I used a #40 bit and a MS24665-283 cotterpin where I could not get the regular drill in there. This is the larger cotter pin in this photo...



    And the smaller cotter pin here......




    At the rear of the side stringers you will need to bring the stringer inside the fuselage so the fabric will float off the stringer and have a smooth termination. I cut a couple of slits (three in this photo but you really only need two. I used a dremel and a cut off wheel. This allows you to bend the stringer. Looks like this.........



    Then take a piece of .020 2024 AL and cut it to fit in the stringer. It will look kinda like this (sorry for the photo).......



    Rivit this in the stringer over the slits to reinforce it. I used (4) 3-3 rivets. Sorry I don't have a picture of the rivited part. Thought I did.

    Nothing unusual about the bottom stringer.

    The top side stringers were a problem. The curves were smooth and looked nice until you got into the right position then you could see a bulge in the middle part. Most people would never see it but I was not happy. I measured all Jays work and as best I can tell it is spot on according to the plans. Sometimes the plans are not good enough. My options were to cut and reweld several doghouses or put small spacers in to make the lines flow the way I wanted. I chose to make some spacers from 1/8th inch thick to 1/4 inch and epoxy them in. You can see the gap in the slot (before I put the spacer in) here.....




    I have told Jay about this but the problem is ..... it is according to the plans. So does he fix it then making it non standard? What if you do not see this the same way I do? I don't have an answer....so.....just look carefully at the top side stringers and see if you like the "lines". If not do something like this to make it flow in a way that is pleasing to your own eye.

    The top three stringers will probably have to be held on with screws and nuts as there is not much clearance for the fabric so the attachments will need to be low profile. Darn, added 3 ounces.

    The top stringer will warp and bow as you try to put it in as it has a pretty good sweeping curve. So you must bend it so that it is not under a bunch of tension. You CAN bend and shape it but it is not easy. I placed it over a garbage can and very gently pushed on it. Move it over an inch or two and press. Keep this up going slowly and carefully until it bends into shape. This will take a while and probably bruise your palms but it can be done without all kinds of expensive tools, just lots of patience. Be very careful that you do not allow it to twist in this process as it will kink in a heartbeat if you are not careful.

    Make REALLY sure that your stringers are straight and the lines are pleasing to your eye. The Mark 1, God Issued eyeball is incredibly accurate. You can often "see" variances that you can't hardly measure with a micrometer. Also these are the lines that your cub will have forever. Have you ever noticed that some cubs look really sharp and others just average? You may sit there and ponder it and you can't put your finger on it but one just looks nicer. Well this is part of it. When everything is just right, perfect if you will, the airplane takes on an aura that is greater than the simple sum of its parts and it will move into the "WOW" category.

    Just my uneducated opinion

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  32. #232
    docstory's Avatar
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    Make sure the stringer is rock solid at the c channel on the upper stringers. Any movement there will cause the paint to crack. Also, the stringers don't have to bottom out in the clips. Just drill the stringer where it lies and the fastener will hold it true.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
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  33. #233
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    Those stringers sure look like they could use some lightening holes

    Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    I cut a couple of slits (three in this photo but you really only need two. I used a dremel and a cut off wheel. This allows you to bend the stringer. Looks like this.........


    Maybe I'm over thinking this but I think drilling holes first to make the slits to might head off some cracking.

    Sure appreciate your posts Bill!

    Mark J
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  35. #235
    docstory's Avatar
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    We've always cut the web out of the stringer and then pull the tips together creating the curve necessary. Hold it together with the fabric tape.
    With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    "To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
    --- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner

  36. #236
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    You could cut a 2x4 with a curve in it, then Cut a slot in the 2x4 just wide enough for the lower part of the stringer. Then push the stringer into the slot to bend the amount that you want. This will keep the stringer from twisting and kinking. Just like a small manual press brake. Then you won't have to cut the relief slots. Of course you won't save the weight of the aluminum which is cut out of the slots.
    N1PA

  37. #237
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Neat stuff Bill. I like your idea of fitting the stringer to the 3/8" channel. I always hate seeing those cracks in the paint where they transition from the square "U" channel to the rounded stringer. I form the channel at the end with a rounded bucking bar I made that just fits in the channel and allows me to form it with a small hammer into a radius. Here is a picture of how Piper terminated the ends of the side stringers into the fuselage. Great subject because fitting the stringers seems to be more difficult than it looks if you want a really nice job.
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    The web of the stringer is cut out and then bent over.
    Steve Pierce

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  38. #238
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    No discussion of annealing the stringer? A wet rag and a propane torch do the job. An eye for a slight "color" change of the metal when heated with the propane torch, then dropping the wet rag over the heated area will accomplish the annealing. In time the extrusion will "re-harden".

  39. #239

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    What about just using wood stringers. The Cub Club offers the diagrams and dimensions of each stringer needed. I used wood stringers for my restoration with no problems. Use a good 2 part epoxy varnish such as Poly Fiber and you will have no problems. I have also been told that a good single part varnish will work well too. Test it out on a piece of wood. If MEK will not take it off after it dries, you should be good to go. The biggest problem I had with the installation was the brackets that hold the stringer in broke so I had to weld some new ones in. The stringer was attached with saftey wire. Using wood will be cheaper and lighter than aluminum but does require a bit of work sanding, routing, cutting, varnishing.

  40. #240
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Lots of good inputs guys. I appreciate it. I often come out looking like a bit of a buffoon as there are a lot of really sharp folks on this site but if it helps others build a better Cub or learn something new.....oh well. I'll take one for the team.
    Kevin, if you want to weigh your stringers it would be interesting to see if they are lighter. It would be good to know.
    Here are the weights of my stringers after all trimming etc w/ no mounting hardware. Just the stringers.
    Left side - 8.145 oz
    Right side - 5.850 oz
    Left top - 12.830 oz
    Right top - 12.855 oz
    Top center - 13.810 oz
    Bottom - oops guess I need to get that weight.

    BUSHING THE TAIL HINGES

    Before we get started on this lets talk a little about reamers. If you are going to build a cub you are going to need a set of reamers. Unfortunately when you drill a hole it does not come out round. It is actually sorta triangle shaped. Not good. We want round holes so the bolt or whatever is equally stressed all the way around. Also works better for things that have to rotate in that hole. So you need to get a set of fluted hand reamers starting from 1/16th inch and going up to 7/16ths in 1/16 inch increments. So you will buy 7 reamers at about 5 bucks each. Give or take. You will use these little suckers ALL the time. Drill a hole a few thousandths undersize then use the reamer to bring it up to size. Thus you will also need a set of numbered and lettered drills.

    So all the tail hinges have bushings that go in there. That makes about 18 bushings if I remember correctly. We will first ream out the hinge to get the excess powdercoat paint out and also to make it round again after it got warped during the welding process. The hinges near the edge of the rudder, stabs and elevators are easy to get to. Just put the reamer in the drill or use a reamer handle and put some lubricant on the reamer and go at it. ALWAYS use WD-40, LPS-2, or some lubricant when using your reamer. Not a good practice to do it dry. Go slow and easy. ALWAYS turn the reamer in the clockwise direction only. Reamers are NEVER rotated backwards even when trying to get it out. Always clockwise.
    Make one pass only here. We are not trying to enlarge the hole just gently cleaning it out. We want the bushings to go in there with a friction fit, not fall out the other side. If you try to tap the bushing in and it will not go in with gentle taps, back out and ream just a little more until it will go in with a nice fit. The best thing to do here is order the bushing tool from Steve Pierce. It presses the bushing in. But in the event you get in a hurry like me this technique will also work. I use a clevis pin and tap the bushing in with a 4 oz ball peen hammer. What? You do not have a 4 oz Ball Peen hammer? Go hustle your little pink hiney down to Sears and get one this instant. No, a larger hammer will not do. There are going to be a lot of places in this build where you need a light touch. This is one of them. Your set up will look like this.......



    We are going to TAP the bushing in. GENTLY Jethro. When it is in the clevis pin should rotate freely and it should come out with no resistance at all. If not....remember those reamer things I told you about? Then next time don't pound the soft brass bushing so darn hard Bubba.

    Now the hinges that are not next to the edge of the surface are a little harder to ream. You could spend a bunch of money and buy a long handled reamer, or you could weld a extension on the reamer (if you can do this you should be writing this not me) or you can cheat a little. Use your finger to push on the end of the reamer and to keep it straight, (we do not want it to wobble and wallow out the hole) and you will turn the reamer with a wrench. To all the machinist types out there reading this please don't panic. We are building a Cub not the space shuttle. Remember not to over ream it. Just one pass through, AND DON"T TURN IT BACKWARDS or you will go straight to ..........
    Just kidding. Your set up might look like this........



    So ...........now you know about reamers. You will use them to clean out all kinds of holes and to make things nice and round. And you now have bushings in all your tail feathers. Pretty cool hugh?

    Hope this helps

    Flame suit on

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

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