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Thread: Light wing build

  1. #41
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Now you've done it chris.I hope you have them ready to ship.
    Steve Pierce

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  2. #42
    dalec's Avatar
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    Just when a guy begins to get this stuff straight in his head, he gets "Bushwhacked". No noseribs??? Nice, very Nice

  3. #43
    Bushwhacker Air's Avatar
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    Problem is, Steve, that that the tooling is about $4200!! Making them to sell for $300 a 63" piece makes for an expensive wing. Working on a better price right now - should be able to make the pieces for < $200 each and hopefully save on some tooling costs.

  4. #44

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    Dammit Chris. I was ordering aluminum sheet on monday, think I'll wait. Hmmmn 2,4,6, x 2. yep that should be enough so 1200 + 60-70 shipping... maybe cheap shipping since light... hmmm 1270.. yep I'm down for that.. Seriously. though I would want to hear,a real good discussion about dynamic strength:cycling, attachment, are the rest of the wing parts overstressed because of LE stiffness, etc. Not criticising just trying to be careful. One of the reasons I'm building to cub plans is it's tried and true and the problems are known. BUT I would be willing to try something like this in a heartbeat if certain questions were answered. 1200 a set would be a good target price in my case and I'm one of the cheapest consumers around. Wait, wait, what is the weight savings? Wow key point. That would be a real big point with me. Like I said earlier, before I spend money on saving 6# in the wing at CG, I would spend it on the nose (start at spinner and work back) since 6# forward of CG will benifit me more. Another thought for you Chris: wouldn't a "no ribs" but really strong flap/aileron reverse cove false spar with molded in hanger supports be a better (though not as flashy) CF build also? Maybe both LE and TE. I bet if you got this done and it saved 30# folks would be ripping their exp wings apart to add these and since building to 1320# is just slightly out of reach (I think carbon cub saves a 200# practical) I think this would be a great profit center. Just realized Steve said all of what I just said with "hope your ready to ship"

  5. #45

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    One more thought on this product: The nose ribs add another attach point on the front of the spar cap. I would think those attachment points would have added strength to the spar to resist the "failure mode, twisting. Maybe an inside added flange that the builder could notch out except at each location where the "old" nose ribs would have been or just leave the whole thing? How about aileron/flap leading edges. Cheaper for a first product? Easier to engineer without catastrofic consequences? Failure mode likely to happen over time etc. If I had any of these I wouldn't want to cover them. Almost as good as bush wheels for "man mode"

  6. #46
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Roger, Your wing looks awesome. I too am a wood wing fan. Some of the highest performance aircraft in that weight class have had wood spars and some with wood ribs also for years. The Bellanca Decathlon is a high speed, high G, aerobatic ship with a spar that's pretty close to the Champ spar of 70 years ago. Wood is good. What engine will be on your ship Roger? I guess my question is if you're going to build a 150+ hp SC with flaps, would you use the typical wood spar Piper internal bracing hardware? In other words would you use the J3/J5 style compression members and trammeling wire and so on? Would you need to beef anything up?

    Good Job Roger, looks great.

  7. #47
    Roger Peterson's Avatar
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    Thanks. I just like wood wings. They have a lot of give where the alum take a set. I put alum Dakota Cub wings on my first PA11 and it ended up heavy. Great Flyer, but heavy. Have a 1940 J3 with wood spars, and alum ribs. I think wood spars and ribs are about as strong as you can get and yes I would go wood on a experimental SC. I call my first one a PA11 because it doesn't have flaps and has the long front spar. Other than that, I wouldn't hesitate to hang a 180 on it. I fly it at 2000+ all the time with a 0-200 with a 588 cam and 9.5/1 pistons. Same engine I am putting in this one. Don't think you need the extra ribs unless you plan on going fast. Can't tell much difference in the bulge on top or the indent on the bott from 1200# to 2100#. I do use SC struts and forks though. I really don't see any use for anything over a 0-200 though as it is just going to burn more gas. I can haul all I can pack in it as it is. Also I run a 4 into 1 exhaust with no muffler so I can make as much noise as a big plane. I think the extra noise helps you get off the water quicker.

  8. #48
    Bushwhacker Air's Avatar
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    We, too, do not want to stray too ar from the Piper plans for the same reason. My thinking on Carbon Fiber is that Piper didnlt have it back then, or they would have used it!

    The elimination of the nose ribs is due to the torsional stiffness of the LE. By being able to carry some load on the LE, you should be able get by without them.

    Using the diagonal drag/compression arrangment saves some weight too and take the spars out of tension mode - not so sure how much weight is saved, but our no-flap, 15' wing panel weighs 58 lbs w/o aileron. Hard to do an apples to apples comparison because it is different.

    Mike O' has been my weight-savings inspiration, and everything is being scrutinized. No if I could only eat right!!

    working on a nice wing tip and want to do the false spars also. One thing at a time!

  9. #49

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    Jeeze Chris. Everyone does wingtips but carbon fiber leading edges?? I'm being selfish. I want em tested and ready to ship next week! I agree, Piper would have used them if they'd had em..
    Last edited by qsmx440; 12-29-2010 at 10:45 AM. Reason: removed some incorrect info

  10. #50
    Marty57's Avatar
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    D.A.
    I am building a wood wing for my 2+2/PA14, same as Rogers but with flaps. The flaps and ailerons will also be made from wood. The only reinforcement I have added is a second piece of ply 3" x 4-1/2" x 1/16" on the inside of the spars at each of the aileron and flap hangers. The leading edge will be 1/16" ply, extending all the way to the spar top and bottom. I will have to build up the spars to the top and bottom of the ribs with cap strip material (1/4" x 1/4" spruce) but that will be pretty light. Flap hardware will be the same as the Super Cub with the hangers being modified J3 wood spar aileron hangers. Right now, the wing seems very light. I will weigh the wing after the leading edge and cove are in place in a few weeks.
    Marty 57

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    Marty57
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    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  11. #51

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    That wing build is looking good Marty. It's a little hard to believe (but I do accept) that the wood wing is lighter considering the spars. I can see that the ribs would be lighter and I also can see there are a lot less parts in the compression struts/drag wires. What did your spars weigh bare if you have that figure? I'll try to weigh one of my bare aluminum spars today if I get to the hangar. Other than the ribs the wood wings you are building appear to have a lower parts count (braces etc) than the aluminum ones. Ordered a set of parts from Dakota yesterday for one compression strut (very helpful folks). I'm gonna try to make the aluminum inserts (plugs) when I get the square tube to check dimensions. I gotta go edit my above post to Chris on 12-26 since you have bumped this thread. Don't know what I was thinking posting that business about carbon fiber LE and it's attachment to the spar. Doesn't make sense when I read it now?
    Last edited by qsmx440; 12-29-2010 at 10:48 AM.

  12. #52
    Bushwhacker Air's Avatar
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    My next task will be to find a clear myler film duarable enough to cover a wing - it will be a shame to cover your wing, Marty!

    Great job.

  13. #53

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    Looks good Marty. Keep it up.
    KG

  14. #54
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Marty, great looking work! When you say you'll be using modified wood spar aileron hangers, how do they need to be modified to be used for flaps? Will you be using 40 degrees of flap?

    Looks great.

  15. #55
    Crash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsmx440 View Post
    One more thought on this product: The nose ribs add another attach point on the front of the spar cap. I would think those attachment points would have added strength to the spar to resist the "failure mode, twisting. Maybe an inside added flange that the builder could notch out except at each location where the "old" nose ribs would have been or just leave the whole thing? How about aileron/flap leading edges. Cheaper for a first product? Easier to engineer without catastrofic consequences? Failure mode likely to happen over time etc. If I had any of these I wouldn't want to cover them. Almost as good as bush wheels for "man mode"
    The PA-14 had the highest gross weight of all the long wing Piper's and didn't have nose ribs. Neither did the J-4, J-5C or PA-12.

    http://www.dakotacub.com/images/pric...rib%20assy.pdf

    Crash
    Last edited by Crash; 12-29-2010 at 05:45 PM.

  16. #56
    Marty57's Avatar
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    D.A.
    The difference is very slight. The flap hinges are a bit shorter and at a different angle than that of the aileron hangers. The picture below shows the CAD drawing I made showing the two overlaid. The lower hanger is for the flaps; longer one is for the aileron. If you look at the jig picture you will see the hole marked "FLAP". The only difference between the two hangers is that the bushing end location for the flap makes the tube a little shorter and the hanger is angled down more than the aileron but all the parts are the same. All the measurements were taken from stock S.C. flap hinges, overlaid on the aileron hinge to determine the difference. I sure love using CAD. I use it to make all my jigs and the bend patterns for fittings and figure in the bend allowance data so my "U" shaped brackets come out spot on. These hangers are pretty simple but did take me a lot of time. The lower angle bracket gives it the extra support necessary for the wood spar.
    Marty

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  17. #57
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash View Post
    The PA-14 had the highest gross weight of all the long wing Piper's and didn't have nose ribs. Neither did the J-4, J-5C or PA-12.

    http://www.dakotacub.com/images/pric...rib%20assy.pdf

    Crash
    They had stamped nose ribs, FYI.



    Tim

  18. #58
    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhacker Air View Post
    My next task will be to find a clear myler film duarable enough to cover a wing - it will be a shame to cover your wing, Marty!

    Great job.
    I would love to cover my plane in clear!

  19. #59
    Crash's Avatar
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    Were talking about intermediate "nose ribs" between each "full rib". I have the 1948 PA-14 factory wing blueprints, they show no intermediate "nose ribs". My complete Dakota Cub PA-14 rib kit came with zero "nose ribs", just like they list on the attached link.

    http://www.dakotacub.com/images/pric...rib%20assy.pdf

    Take care,

    Crash
    Last edited by Crash; 12-29-2010 at 07:10 PM.

  20. #60
    Roger Peterson's Avatar
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    Marty, I sure like the looks of your wings. Nobody realizes the work you put into them until you have done a set from scratch. Great job.

  21. #61
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcraft128 View Post
    I would love to cover my plane in clear!
    would bet the bottom of wing could take it for a little while... attach it like Maule does there tail feathers, one strip at a time...

    maybe outside prop wash area...

    have your demo plane done like that for shows and flyins....

  22. #62
    Glidestone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Been flying a Wag-Aero Cuby. Wood Wing. The wing leading edge radius is larger than Piper. The Aviat Husky used the same airfoil section as Cuby/Wag. I can't say anything bad about it.

    This Cuby has 0-290D2 Lycoming. Just got new Exp. pistons and fresh cylinders from Lycon. All reports are that it RIPs! It was pretty good before with tired cylinders and Gurney flaps. about 1000 lbs. empty. on 31's with Baby Buswheel.
    Dave. Could you elaborate on the exp. pistons and cylinders. By fresh do you mean new or overhauled? Talk on here a few years back, of machining an 0-290D2 to accept 0-320 cylinders. Wonder if anyone has done this yet? Thanks.

  23. #63
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glidestone View Post
    Dave. Could you elaborate on the exp. pistons and cylinders. By fresh do you mean new or overhauled? Talk on here a few years back, of machining an 0-290D2 to accept 0-320 cylinders. Wonder if anyone has done this yet? Thanks.
    Actually, the "New Exp Pistons" caught my eye too. I didn't say anything because I just figured I don't get out much, but I didn't realize Lycon made their high compression pistons for the O-290. If they do, that's kind of cool. O-290's tend to be more reasonably priced and if you could throw a set of Lycon pistons in it and have somewhere north or south of 150/160 horse power, well, like I said, that's kind of cool!

    With regard to fly cutting the case for O-320 cylinders, seems I read somewhere in the small print that the O-290 and O-320 case are actually based on the same casting? The cylinder base hold down pattern is the same. However, pistons would be a whole lot faster/easier/cheaper. By the time you're chucking your O-290 case halves onto a Bridgeport to open them up for the O-320 cylinders, you could have probably started out with an O-320 I guess.

  24. #64
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Marty, checked out your build site - nice work and nicely documented. Thanks for sharing. I ordered the Wag plans today and stopped by and BS'd with Jerry Burr about nose rib profiles and so on. We traced out a stock rib on construction paper and then Jerry held a piece of the cuff material against the paper/stock rib and I traced that as well. My son Chris is actually in charge of the wing program. We're trying to decide whether we should cut out nose ribs with the cuff profile already incorporated or cut them out stock (Piper stock) and add provisions in the L.E. skin to screw the cuff on afterward. Either way, the Wag plans should be here by the end of the week and Jerry sent me home with a stock rib to trace over the Wag pattern.

    Looking at the pictures on your build site I noticed that there are some pretty substantial doubler plates at the wing attach and strut attach points. Are those on Wag's Sport Trainer plans also or are those 2+2 specific enhancements. If they're 2+2 specific, I think I'd like to order the 2+2 wing drawings (if they'll sell them individually) and build those wings for our SC. Your wings look great!

    David

  25. #65
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    2+ 2

    if you want to get a good head start minus the engine they have here it is posted today
    http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main
    WAG AERO 2+2 PROJECTACCEPTING OFFERSWag Aero 2+2 project, fuselage in primer for storage, some welding left. Wings with wooden spars, stored in racks, some gluing left. Engine 0300-A firewall forward removal from Cessna 170B, TT3050 hours, TSO1662. It has been stored inside heated building, good engine, no prop. Some cover supplies, 18 gal wing tanks, gear, seats, windshield. $9900.00 Aqua 2200 floats, ferry time only, stored inside, struts, fittings, pork chops(for 170B). $9900.00 Package deal $16,000.00 • Contact Ritchie O. Putnam, Friend of Owner - located Madison, ME USA • Telephone: 2074313610 . • Posted January 3, 2011
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  26. #66
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Hi David,
    The doubler plates on the spars are just 1/16" ply but they are different than the Sport Trainer and Wagabond spars. I also added extra plates on the inside of the spars at the flap and aileron hangers. Call Tom O'Niel at Wag and talk to him about the 2+2 wing drawings. If that falls through, let me know. I talked to him at Osh and he said that the lightest wing by far is all wood; it will be interesting to see the end results.

    I looked at the pictures of the 2+2 on Barnstormers. It looks pretty good. The wing has the wood bow, same as mine; different than the glass tips on the 2+2. I don't see the spoiler cross members (they could be missing) The doubler plates on the spar are not 2+2 design but rather the Wagabond. There are a few other things on the wing that make me think it is a Sport Trainer or Wagabond mix wing rather than a 2+2 wing. This is not necessarily a bad thing as my wing is not pure 2+2 either. Fuselage looks right but might be over built in back with some extra cross members in the turtle deck area. I also don't like the idea of the Cont. O300 engine but that's just my preference.
    Marty57
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  27. #67
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    I agree with Marty on the engine if you want nice spoilers i got some complete and also aileron and flap handles hangers also metal and ailerons also built up
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  28. #68
    8856Charlie's Avatar
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    Is this what you guys are talking about for leading edge skins, This is the leading edge tank bay weighs 15 oz., Have the mold for the trailing edge tank bay done and tip bow transition done. Transition parts weigh 4 oz each. False spar for flap bay and 5' leading edge skin molds in process, now if i can just get the FAA to buy off on it. Combined with the carbon fiber tank covers looks like a total of 18# lighter for a set of wings.
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  29. #69

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    What are we lookimg at in the pictures? 4' LE carbon fiber? The shape does not look like my nose ribs. Radius is to small. BUT very interesting. I would think the TE need testing or engineering as they have hinges braced off of them. Have you figured that out. Anyway I would be very interested in LE if you are building them. Chris got me surfing the net for CF info. Are you using straight weave or twill (hope twill is the right word. I would expect straight weave since there's no shape)? 18 # is significant savings!

  30. #70
    Bushwhacker Air's Avatar
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    The shape does not look like my nose ribs. Radius is to small
    Those are perfect. The shape allows them to conform to the LE without you having to worry about getting full contact from a profile that is slightly off, and the radius centers them on the nose profile. They are the same shape as my aluminum LE's.

  31. #71

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    Thanks Chris.

  32. #72
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    Hi David,
    Call Tom O'Niel at Wag and talk to him about the 2+2 wing drawings.
    Sorry for the late reply, back to 6x12s at the big "B". Really cuts into my goofing off time! I appreciate the tip about the 2+2 on Barnstormers. The PA14 is one of the coolest ships Piper ever built and the 2+2 falls right in step as well. For right now, Chris and I are going to stick with a PA18. However, I'm really glad I saw your wing pictures which prompted the idea of building the wood SC wings with whatever GW enhancements the 2+2 has. Also thanks for Tom O'Niel's name. I'll give him a call a tell him what I'm doing. Perhaps they'll sell the 2+2 wing drawings alone.

    Great group here.

    David

  33. #73
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glidestone View Post
    Dave. Could you elaborate on the exp. pistons and cylinders. By fresh do you mean new or overhauled? Thanks.
    Sorry for the long wait for an answer.

    Overhauled cylinders, pistons that give 10:1 compr. ratio. I flew it a couple of days ago. It is good. Needs the carburetor richened up a bit....a good sign that it is making more power than before.

  34. #74
    Roger Peterson's Avatar
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    Dave, whenever I go 9.5:1 or 10:1, I have to lean the carburetor down as it takes less gas at the higher compression. A least I thought it did. Also have to retard the timing as the burn is lot quicker.

  35. #75
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I'm not able to lean it at the moment. Ambient in the 5-10 F range, the other cylinder/piston combo could be leaned.

    I'm not sure I believe that higher compression/more horsepower equals less fuel burn.

  36. #76

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    I have ordered all my parts for building my wings. I decided to just build stock as to the drag wires, compression struts, drag tube in tank area etc. (no thought given to tanks. They will have to be stock or stock like). While ordering raw materials for the parts I am planning on machining, everything was fine until I got to the "drag wire pulls". Drawing for the "double" is #10161 and specs .062 302 annealed stainless 2d finish (whatever 2d is). Anyway I found the stuff at online metals for over 100$ for a very small sheet. Commercially this part is available for around $10 and since I only need 18 of them it's starting to look like these might be one of the finished parts I build. Nasty stuff to cut anyway. Anyone have any ideas where I might find that material on the cheap?

  37. #77
    Marty57's Avatar
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    The same parts on the wood spar J3 and the 2+2 wing are made from mild steel although a different shape. Not sure why they are SS. I'm also not clear on your post. If the material is over $100 and the finished parts are only $180 is the saving's really worth your time if the material is as difficult to cut as you stated? I have made many parts that looking back now it would have been better just buying. I think this might be one of those parts; just my opinion. Marty57
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  38. #78
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Sorry for the long wait for an answer.

    Overhauled cylinders, pistons that give 10:1 compr. ratio. I flew it a couple of days ago. It is good. Needs the carburetor richened up a bit....a good sign that it is making more power than before.
    What HP does an O-290 put out with 10:1?
    Thanks.

  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    The same parts on the wood spar J3 and the 2+2 wing are made from mild steel although a different shape. Not sure why they are SS. I'm also not clear on your post. If the material is over $100 and the finished parts are only $180 is the saving's really worth your time if the material is as difficult to cut as you stated? I have made many parts that looking back now it would have been better just buying. I think this might be one of those parts; just my opinion. Marty57
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    Yes I agree about buying them and I probably will cause I have always disliked working stainless. Once you start a cut you can't stop. It work hardens and if you stop it just wants to break cutters. Threading on a lathe is a lot of fun. Had to make a bunch of threaded bushings for a large sailboat I used to have. I worked it out but it wasn't much fun. The wood wings apparently use a different setup than the aluminum. Don't know why Piper bothered with stainless for these parts when they have a bunch of steel against aluminum everywhere else in the wing. ?? Oh well, I'm not goona second guess them on this build. I liked the looks of yours when I first saw them a year ago.

  40. #80
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Jul 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.A. View Post
    What HP does an O-290 put out with 10:1?
    Thanks.
    Depends on who you're talking to.

    This one needs a bit more prop, I think. That leads me to think in the 155-160 HP range.......but that's a guess.

    If I put a 82/42 on and it statics-out like a 160HP O-320..........does that mean it puts out 160? D

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