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Thread: Check That Muffler

  1. #41
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    It looks like the bail is in the tail pipe...maybe mounted flush or below opening. Needs to be slightly above opening to prevent blockage. How much time was on this muffler?

    I had a look at the bail today. It was welded WELL below the upper end of the tailpipe! This would be a report to the authorities! The person welding this piece in clearly have no idea what it's there for.. Do you have a reporting function in FAA on material flaws like this? We have that system in Sweden. In this, and many other cases, a Form 8130 or our european form 1 is worth nothing..

  2. #42
    nanook's Avatar
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    We have the M & D reports... I would call the manufacturer and let them know what you found.

  3. #43
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Found out that Univair builds the mufflers for Cub Crafters Top Cubs. They have found an issue on the 180 hp mufflers and come out with a fix.
    Original end cap.
    Univair End Cap.JPG

    Redesigned end cap.
    Univair Improved End Cap.JPG
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  4. #44
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubswede View Post
    I had a look at the bail today. It was welded WELL below the upper end of the tailpipe! This would be a report to the authorities! The person welding this piece in clearly have no idea what it's there for.. Do you have a reporting function in FAA on material flaws like this? We have that system in Sweden. In this, and many other cases, a Form 8130 or our european form 1 is worth nothing..
    or did some one buy the bail separate and weld it in(wrong) not the manufacturer (it's an add on item, thats kinda a standard item now...)

  5. #45
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Also found out that the Atlee Dodge Heavy Duty muffler that does away with the AD is 1.8 lbs heavier than stock because it is made of heavier material to eliminate issues like these.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  6. #46
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Found out that Univair builds the mufflers for Cub Crafters Top Cubs. They have found an issue on the 180 hp mufflers and come out with a fix.
    Original end cap.
    Univair End Cap.JPG

    Redesigned end cap.
    Univair Improved End Cap.JPG
    ya, but your broken one looks/is of the redesigned type??

    looks more like a stack miss alignment issue to me...

  7. #47
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    ya, but your broken one looks/is of the redesigned type??

    looks more like a stack miss alignment issue to me...
    Please explain your deduction.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  8. #48
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Check That Muffler

    The one that broke after 280 hours was the original style univair muffler.



    Here is the one off the top cub
    Last edited by RaisedByWolves; 04-24-2015 at 01:16 PM.

  9. #49

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    I have a hole pile of good used univair muffs.I would run them 1000 hrs about three years then replace because my IA thought the AD started at 1000hrs glad I didn't check .but since I have been using Atlee Dodge heavy duty and never had one fail but the highest time one is about 5years and 1200 hours.Mike is wright about alinement,its easy for me I live near Dawely muf.can drive out and have it all fitted. One thing about the heavy duty can't bump them out. must have pipes fitted to muff.make them fit tight only good way is on fixture then alinement will be right. but to send it out could be costy and timely.but if you want min blown by at muff this the only way,is funny all the 1000hr muffs have no worpage in the tubes Univair makes a good muf but if your flying them 300-400 hrs ayear that AD is a pain.

  10. #50
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Please explain your deduction.
    no deductions here, I just fly off the handle and come up with an answer.. right, or wrong

    looked like the thicker outer weld... of new style?

    misalignment look like stack angle downward putting pressure/cracking...

    ??????

  11. #51
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    OK, so you are thinking the outlet pipes are misaligned and putting the muffler end in a bind. That makes sense. We will install without the muffler and see what it looks like. Thanks.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  12. #52
    little wing's Avatar
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    I'm sure Univair or cub crafters will come through for your customer since it's such a low time unit. If they don't, I'd say flame them. Obviously the modification is an admitition of a faulty product. Do you think these companies produce products that put people's lives in danger on purpose for the all mighty (or weak) dollar? If so, perhaps we should choose, more wisely which aircraft we buy and which product may be placed on said aircraft. This sounds like a life threatening, expensive, load of sh&@!!!!! Perhaps that's what these companies are????

  13. #53
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    OK, so you are thinking the outlet pipes are misaligned and putting the muffler end in a bind. That makes sense. We will install without the muffler and see what it looks like. Thanks.
    Steve along this train of thought. Have any of the cylinder exhaust ports been machined down to clean up erosion from a leaky gasket? If so this will throw the alignment of the pipes out of whack and could be the cause of the cracking. I've seen this happen in just one trip around the traffic pattern.
    N1PA

  14. #54
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    No Pete, checked alignment and perfect. The engine has 280 hrs since factory new as does the airplane. Saw another one break the header pipe at a weld on a Top Cub with 360 hrs on it while flying back from Oshkosh a few years ago. We look these things over with a fine tooth comb but don't expect to find these kinds of issues on such low time airplanes. These can lead to catastrophic failures with huge consequences so please be diligent in your preflight.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  15. #55

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    Steve, any insite on if these aircraft were operated to avoid the plackarded RPM avoid band? Never really researched it but was under the impression it was related to vibration.

  16. #56
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    With Lycoming Engine Models O-360-C4P or O-360-C1G:
    1 Sensenich Propeller Manufacturing Company Model 76EM8, Propeller Type Certificate P4EA.
    Operation between 2150 and 2350 RPM restricted to transient operation only with O-360-C1G.
    I would hope both pilots followed the placards installed. The muffler pictured above was only operated with the Sensenich for less than the first 100 hours.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  17. #57
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Another Univair muffler with 200 hours. 160 hp.
    20150510_132214.jpg
    Last edited by Steve Pierce; 05-11-2015 at 09:28 AM.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  18. #58
    little wing's Avatar
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    I don't think there are any restrictions placarded or in the POH regarding RPM and the C4P, on a Top Cub. I know there is on the other engine offered by CC for that airplane, but not the C4P.

  19. #59
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Another Univair muffler with 200 hours. 160 hp.
    20150510_132214.jpg
    cylinder falling off? have heard of a O-320 on a PA-12 that the exhaust was all that was holding it on.... the base nuts had fallen off!!

  20. #60
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    I recieved my new nicocraft (wallcolmonoy) muffler yesterday. Bought it from aircraftspruce. The muffler bale is welded in too low in this tailpipe aswell... Does not even enter the muffler body..
    seems as all nicocraft muffler bales is welded the wrong way. The old muffler is at least 10 years old.
    money back possible?

  21. #61
    little wing's Avatar
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    Could backfiring be the cause, regardless of 320/360?

  22. #62
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Another Univair muffler with 200 hours. 160 hp.
    20150510_132214.jpg
    I think that I know what may be the cause of these cracks. Stainless tends to become brittle adjacent to a weld. This is more of a problem on exhaust systems when heat and vibration are involved. If, when being welded, the muffler was purged with argon this embrittlement would be minimized. The muffler manufacturer needs to change it's welding process to include an argon purge.

    I have seen proof of this on a brand "C" entirely new installation firewall forward. One trip around the traffic pattern and pulling the cowl for a check found one exhaust stack broken nearly 100% around a weld. Sent it back for warranty repair which was done at great expense (another story). It failed again in less than five hours in the same place. Had a friend who is an expert welder repair it on the plane. He purged the inside of the pipe with argon while welding. It never failed again.
    N1PA

  23. #63
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Thanks Pete, good to know.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  24. #64
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubswede View Post
    I recieved my new nicocraft (wallcolmonoy) muffler yesterday. Bought it from aircraftspruce. The muffler bale is welded in too low in this tailpipe aswell... Does not even enter the muffler body..
    seems as all nicocraft muffler bales is welded the wrong way. The old muffler is at least 10 years old.
    money back possible?
    yes and please file a
    Form 8010-4 - MALFUNCTION OR DEFECT REPORT
    https://www.faa.gov/forms/index.cfm/...umentID/186275

    that will kill people...

  25. #65
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Yes, that's what I thought too. With the bale installed this far down the tailpipe, loose pieces could get stuck both in the muffler outlet AND on the incorrect positioned wire bale. Will have a look at that form..
    I wrote aircraft spruce a mail three days ago describing the issue, but haven't got any feedback yet.

  26. #66
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Here is pictures of the new Nicocraft muffler. The bale is mounted quite flush with the muffler body wall.
    I have got in contact with the manufacturer. Will be interesting to se the final result of this.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #67
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    I got a new muffler from nicocraft! If I reposition the wirebail I will have two serviceable mufflers! ��
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  28. #68

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    It takes me under an hour to do the J-3 muffler AD. Same thing on a 180 Super Cub takes me a week! I am assuming that the reason the aircaft came back from CC without the Sutton I installed over a decade ago is that the Sutton didn't fit the 180 engine.

    So the owner is on notice - this is the last 100 hour inspection - now it is twice a year. Does the Hot Rod muffler fit the 180 hp CC mod?

    I promise - I had less work involved in installing the Sutton than is involved in that AD inspection. It really cleaned up that engine compartment.

  29. #69
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I blew out an Atlee HD muffler this time. Could barely see a crack looking through up the tailpipe. I decided to go with the Sutton exhaust that has no baffles, saves 2 lbs and frees up the back of the engine and keeps the heat off the firewall. Gets kinda warm in Texas in the summer.
    20180218_164228.jpg

    20180218_164236.jpg
    Steve Pierce

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  30. #70
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I blew out an Atlee HD muffler this time. Could barely see a crack looking through up the tailpipe.
    That's why I went with the gutted hot rod muffler. Still looks like new inside. Makes up for the 2 lbs too.

    Speaking of weld cracks tho. 900 hrs

    KIMG0403.JPG
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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  31. #71
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    That's why I went with the gutted hot rod muffler. Still looks like new inside. Makes up for the 2 lbs too.

    Speaking of weld cracks tho. 900 hrs

    KIMG0403.JPG
    Are those pipes still bolted tight to the engine? If so it sure looks like there were some stresses in the installation.
    N1PA
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  32. #72
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Are those pipes still bolted tight to the engine? If so it sure looks like there were some stresses in the installation.
    I found a loose nut on the rear of that cyl about 100 hrs ago. also the pin in the muffler clamp was gone. I'm not blaming this on manufacturing .
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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  33. #73
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    It's amazing how fast a pipe will crack when the installation has some unseen stresses when the pipes are tightened. Once around the traffic pattern will do it. These can happen even with an experienced set of eyes is supervising the job.
    N1PA
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  34. #74
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    Those look like they can be expensive.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  35. #75
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Those look like they can be expensive.
    Naw. It pays to have lots of spares.

    Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  36. #76
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    base nuts still on cylinder tight? heard of muffler stack being only thing holding on a cylinder....

  37. #77
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    base nuts still on cylinder tight? heard of muffler stack being only thing holding on a cylinder....
    See post 72.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  38. #78
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    See post 72.

    I had misread that as loose exhaust nut...

  39. #79
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    I had misread that as loose exhaust nut...
    You read it right

    Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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  40. #80
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Nowdays after all lessons learned from this thread, I allways check the proper installation of the Muffler bail. Last month, I found Another bail incorrectly welded by nicocraft. The bail is welded about 3/8" below the muffler body down the tailpipe..
    So you guys running Nicocraft Mufflers, Check for the proper position of the bail! This is the third muffler from nicocraft that I have found this anomaly on!
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

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