Another obstacle coming!

Lots of companies are trying to figure out how to use high altitude winds for power generation. I wonder if it will ever work??

A few problems I see:

1. Sharing the airspace.
2. How do you get that much energy through the tether.
3. How much energy does it take to hold the "baloon" up.
4. The graphic below shows 304 meters = ~1000 feet. They must not understand that you need to be 10x higher than that to get any wind.

http://www.magenn.com/

Why couldn't I fly a kite and have a small wind turbine attached to it :lol:

Tim said:

Why couldn't I fly a kite and have a small wind turbine attached to it :lol:

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I thought that is what you are flying now.. 8) :lol:

http://machinedesign.com/article/le...power-does-it-take-to-run-a-wind-turbine-0810

Hydro power and Nukes are what we need.

it shows the tether going up,

but it will actually be at an angle of the wind.. and changing with it......

Go kick around Holland for a while. There are tons of modern windmills there. Especially offshore. Very cool. There must be some benefit. I'd like to get back and spend some time learning about their wind power system.


Stewart

As long as there are Obama dollars and serious tax breaks for this kind of foolishness you are going to see all kinds of stupid ideas. In the "old days", here we go, and by old days I mean prior to the early '90's, most electric utilities had generation which provided for a portion of their load. They were required to hold some, maybe 20%, in "spinning reserves". If a generator tripped off the spinning reserves were "idling on line" to provide almost instantaneous stable supply. Your clocks at home ran neither fast or slow. Most utilities now have separated their generation. Government tried, unsuccessfully, to create a scenario of "competition" in the generation business for lower rates. Have your rates gone down? Anyway, electricity cannot be stored, generation equals load always. How do we calculate what the wind will blow next hour when figuring our load? Every other source of generation for next hour load can be calculated. Wind is a joke. In my opinion. Jim

You must not have been to West Texas. The wind is very reliable. It blows 24/7 with enough energy to turn some great big generators!

There's a world of difference between "very reliable" and completely reliable. For wind turbines to generate any electricity, the wind has to be blowing in a relatively narrow range of speeds: too slow and it doesn't generate enough; too fast and it can damage or even destroy the windmill. Therefore, because our electricuty grid requires adequate, reliable, and regulated current, there will always need to be something to back-up the windmills- or better put- the windmill will never be more than an expensive supplement to the conventionally generated electricity.

As for the balloon turbine thingies... only in Fantasy Land

Some out of state outfit just pushed through a conditional use permit for a new wind farm, (http://www.bannockdevelopment.org/content/wind-farm-seeks-locate-bannock-county), utilizing a "revolutionary new design" purported to be 95% effcient. Now that got my attention, as the most efficient now are pushing 35 or 40 %, and the top limit (Betz Law, http://guidedtour.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/betz.htm) is 59%, and even that 59% is in theory only.

So 95% efficiency, AND it would produce twice the power in half the wind speed, as compared to conventional wind turbines, again, this flies in the face of possibility, it ain't gonna happen. Oh yeah, these turbines would also cost less, last longer etc etc. If you are going to tell a lie tell a big one!

The county approved it, partially because of the hyped employment in producing these mythical turbines. Turns out this outfit's REAL business is pumping up property value prior to eminent domain property seizure, now they can claim much higher value based on the loss of income from their proposed wind farm, as a non related big power line is rumored to be a possibilty transiting the area. There will never be a single turbine built, I'll bet anyone any amount of money, it is all a scam.

The real wind turbine farms are another matter, I saw several sets of 100'+ blades going down the interstate today, modern day large wind turbines are now producing power very near the per kilowatt cost of fossil fueled plants. Follow the money, you think if they didn't put out profitable power at the end of the billing period they would still be building them? The tax incentives are not that good, they help, but the technology can stand on its own. You don't think the nuke industry is tax payer subsidized? Ha ha ha!!

Like most controversial subjects the truth lies somewhere in between: "they don't work, it is all hype", and "wind power is the ultimate answer". The balloon turbine, is right up there (pun intended) with the "accelerated wind turbine", in pure fantasyville.

MikeH said:

There's a world of difference between "very reliable" and completely reliable. For wind turbines to generate any electricity, the wind has to be blowing in a relatively narrow range of speeds: too slow and it doesn't generate enough; too fast and it can damage or even destroy the windmill. Therefore, because our electricuty grid requires adequate, reliable, and regulated current, there will always need to be something to back-up the windmills- or better put- the windmill will never be more than an expensive supplement to the conventionally generated electricity.

As for the balloon turbine thingies... only in Fantasy Land

Click to expand...

Current wind generator technology is way ahead of what's being talked about here. The new windmills place the blades on the downwind side of the tower. Not only are the blades capable of re-pitching to optimize power generation but the blades lay back to allow the mill to produce energy in winds that were excessive with older mills. 100 mph winds are not a problem for the new products. In fact I can see one out of my office window. A friend also has a couple at his remote home. His topography suits a wind system. Mine does not so I'm using solar. In a perfect world I'd use hydro. At any rate, I'm a user and a big fan of alternative energy. It will never be the primary source for any large population, or at least it won't be until large storage capacity is conquered, but for personal use or as a supplement to known public grid requirements? It makes good sense.

When you produce your own power you become much wiser in your use of energy. That's not a bad thing. Save the petro products for internal combustion engines.

SB

The tether for this thing won't go straight up, but it won't angle out as far as you'd expect.

Depending on where (geographically) they are planning on putting these things, 1000 foot AGL could be plenty suitable. I know that we used to see a pretty consistent wind at that level on our Wind Profiler (fancy radar) and in actual operations launching and recovering. Some of these wind generators can operate in as little as 5 knots pretty well, in fact some of them don't like higher winds and have retarders on them to prevent damage.

Also, on the powered tether, I don't know the exact numbers, but the Aerostats that flew on the border in the 80's-90's had a powered tether that handled enough juice to run all of the on-board avionics AND a pretty healthy radar unit. It's diameter was about 7/8" if I remember correctly.

I personally don't see these things taking off quite like the wind-turbine farms that you see scattered throughout the country right now, but do think you will see them occasionally. One of the biggest problems with using these, is that you will HAVE to have a 'flight crew' available to launch and recover these things 24/7 based on weather limitations. That is one of the main reasons that they will be inefficient.

A 2.5 KW wind turbine, 3 KW of PV, and a .6 KW micro hydro, all grid tied with Idaho Power.....zero power bills since initial setup 4 years ago, and for the rest of my life.

Nine 4 x 8 hot water (solar thermal) panels for the shop/hangar/house radiant floor heat systems, free heat and domestic hot water for life. I use the money I would have spent on utility bills for plane gas! A one time expense, for about what a new pickup costs.

These new mini neighborhood nukes are the way of the future:
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html

Hydro---harness the tides as well as our current inland water resources. Canada produces a lot of cheap hydro electricity and has been doing it for forty years---long before it was politically fashionable.

courierguy said:

A 2.5 KW wind turbine, 3 KW of PV, and a .6 KW micro hydro, all grid tied with Idaho Power.....zero power bills since initial setup 4 years ago, and for the rest of my life.

Nine 4 x 8 hot water (solar thermal) panels for the shop/hangar/house radiant floor heat systems, free heat and domestic hot water for life. I use the money I would have spent on utility bills for plane gas! A one time expense, for about what a new pickup costs.

Click to expand...

Very cool.

Stewart

courierguy said:

A 2.5 KW wind turbine, 3 KW of PV, and a .6 KW micro hydro, all grid tied with Idaho Power.....zero power bills since initial setup 4 years ago, and for the rest of my life.

Nine 4 x 8 hot water (solar thermal) panels for the shop/hangar/house radiant floor heat systems, free heat and domestic hot water for life. I use the money I would have spent on utility bills for plane gas! A one time expense, for about what a new pickup costs.

Click to expand...

Very cool.

Stewart

If a fellow wants to spend the money, has a flowing water source, sunlight and initiative he can lower or eliminate his utility costs. If I had the water I would be generating, I've taken some of my best naps in a hydro plant. I have not done a cost analysis at my home but advertising touts the TAX BREAKS for solar panel installation as a major selling point, 40% or so? That suggests to me payback vs investment might not not compute. $40,000 invested, that's about what a pickup costs, with a simple 5% return will heat and cool my home. When the return is compounded I win and I did not drive a single nail. Everyone wants lower cost utilities. Wind does generate electricity. Is a wind farm covering 100's or 1000's of acres a good trade off environmentally vs a small nuke plant of equivalent capacity and a 25 or 50 acre footprint? Of course we have to factor in all of those "green jobs". NIMBY but you make the call.

crusier

Actually power can be stored in the form of hydrogen, and then reconverted to electricity using fuel cell technology. There are wind turbines all over Indiana and the field are still farmed so it is not a waste of land as you state. I agree we need to get away from coal and go to Nukes, but they also have issues, that spent Plutonium has to go somewhere, so why not use as much wind solar and other green power sources as we can.

And how we forget that the stimulus money was a Bush policy.............

1. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23143814/
2.http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j0JeV2tycpeHWizSFX_aAZ6n_WMg

Electric utilities would have a hard time storing a few 100MW in the form of hydrogen and they are ultimately held responsible for a stable supply.
I never said wind farms are a waste of land. I simply meant that they take up a lot of space. If you or anyone else wants to go into the wind farm business I support your right to do so. I object to the false advertising of how cost efficient they are without massive tax breaks.
The following comments might not be viewed as politically correct.
I never mentioned coal, as far as I know the Saudi's are not holding us hostage with coal and I support using it.
It appears Harry Reid is going to have some free time on his hands shortly and since most nuclear waste is stored in Nevada, it's a win-win.
It always comes down to being George Bush's fault.

One thing a wind turbine can do that a micro hydro or PV installation can't: give you more information upon arriving back home.

In addition to my standard type windsock, I always check the wind turbine, especially if it is late in the morning/early afternoon in the summer. I have seen the wind sock hanging straight down at the bottom of the strip, and at the top the wind turbine is spinning, this tells me a thermal probably broke loose a few minutes earlier, as the turbine, once unstalled and rotating, will continue to spin in very light winds, and so I carry a little extra speed and generally pay extra attention on short final, as a thermal/dust devil on short final can be a attention getter on my 400' uphill strip.

The turbine is also often visible some distance away, if the sun is hitting the Imron painted blades just right, I can see it way before the sock and have more of a heads up. BTW, in 30 years of operating residential scale wind turbines, I have found ONE bird at the base of the tower. Just this year alone I have found 4 dead birds outside my one window that has a through view of the bird feeder, and that's not counting the stunned one the cat gets.

No it is not all GB's fault, the American people (including myself) who have become to used to our life style to make a sacrifice to become a greener country.
I myself am a confused tree hugged, I want to go green ( I'm buying a Nissan leaf ) but I still love all things with engines, hell I work in racing for a living.

Cruiser
I admit I jumped to a conclusion about your original post as being negative and I should not have, but I just hate it when people automatically dismiss these new green technologies due to cost.
I would be willing to pay double for my power if it was zero emission, but Indiana is all "clean coal"......

cruiser said:

Anyway, electricity cannot be stored . . .

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I have a battery and an inverter. Your argument is invalid.

Moneyburner, I stand corrected. For the record, capacitors store electricity also. Before you put the City of Anchorage on that inverter I'd recommend giving those fellows in that generation plant on the side of Glen Highway a heads up your coming on line, they'll appreciate it. Let me know how it goes for you.
Mongo, "green" is the by word, and in an attempt to out-green the other guy our politicians have thrown a lot of money, foolishly, towards a technology that makes good press. We could convert our cars/trucks/busses to run on natural gas, that technology is here now but I don't hear any politicians calling for it. Doesn't make a big headline I guess.

Jim, I'd like to convert my 0-320 to nat. gas, are you gonna help me

The 150 year old 4400 sf farm house that we live in in upstate NY where the wind blows a little every day and temps get as low as -25 and the house is heated some years 8 or 9 months a year used over 20 FULL cords of wood when we moved here 29 years ago after many years of tightening things up it burned 1800 gal of fuel oil and that was keeping it at 68*, 3 years ago we switched to a EFM coal stoker boiler built in 1953 and the most that we have used in a heating season is 10 tons of coal, last year we used 8 ton and about 200 gals of oil, in 2007 when oil was $4.65 a gallon here X 1800 gals = $8370.00 we had to do something and the coal has been a god send, now less then $2500 a year and it's 72* or more in here all the time. Buy American, good old Pennsylvania anthracite coal. Did a mention " I Love Coal "

Glenn

My point was that you can't sync a generator to an infinite buss without some way to control the frequency. A wind source will have controls such as tip brakes, controllable pitch blades, slip and other means to control frequency. Even so, in a small system, the output will have to be modified to match the load. Flywheels, batteries, heat storage, etc. are some of the typical methods. They are between the load and the source to stabilize the output. In a large system, the grid can absorb that by load sharing controls which have less nimble sources set to provide a stable output and variable sources (wind) making up the difference. Load sharing is done by bringing on and dropping off generators as needed. Which is what we do now.

Another point I would toss out there is that simply plunging one's head into the sand and barging along like always isn't going to advance anything. We're smart enough to make it work, so why shouldn't we? Why keep using finite resources that are getting more and more expensive?

Tim, If you do your gonna' have to buy a smaller chair, those tanks take up a lotta' space.

cruiser said:

Tim, If you do your gonna' have to buy a smaller chair, those tanks take up a lotta' space.

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Jim, you ever been in a small room with him, he's one of those stately old men, you know, silent but deadly, I don't think he needs no stinkin tank. :lol:

Glenn

Well having dabled in electric vehicles for the right reasons... ie just for the fascination and the interest, and being passively interested in renewable energy, but being interested in facts not hype... as near as I can determine.. our highly vaulted "public bus" transportation system averages somewhere between 2 and 3 passenger miles per gallon. Just try to get the (independantly audited that leaves out private and school busses) figures on our system in the US. Mostly you will get "it's so effecient", or "busses are environmentally friendly" etc. Now typical of the people who promote these "green" programs if you fill a bus with a bunch of tourists (like a private, greedy corporation would), and drive them 100 miles or so on the freeway you can "report" busses get 2-300 "passenger" miles per gallon far exceeding the passenger car. Unfortunatly in the real world where most of us live, (busses stop and start every few hundred feet, in rural areas they run virtually empty, you can't carry any "baggage" with you, inclimate weather is a pain, safety is a real concern) the reality is that a guy driving his Hummer exactly where he wishes to go uses 5 times less fuel and pollutes 1/5 of what the national bus system pollutes. Next time you see a soldier thank him for protecting our country and next time you see a guy driving a Hummer thank him for saving the earth! Now seroiusly I think everyone is interested in "saving the earth" ,ok maybe 10% aren't, But until I see the Subaru crowd out protesting in front of the government run bus stations I cannot take them seriously. Those of us who are gear heads should continue to support and dabble in electric vehicles (UN-SUBSIDIZED) and see what we can do/learn. We should request that our government support battery research programs at "gear head" not liberal arts colleges. Right now the "battery trap" is not consumer friendly and purchasing these subsidized vehicles is a waste of money that is symbolic not real. If the subsidies were spent on battery technology maybe we could make "real" progress. dave - and I approve this message

mongo said:

No it is not all GB's fault, the American people (including myself) who have become to used to our life style to make a sacrifice to become a greener country.
I myself am a confused tree hugged, I want to go green ( I'm buying a Nissan leaf ) but I still love all things with engines, hell I work in racing for a living.

Cruiser
I admit I jumped to a conclusion about your original post as being negative and I should not have, but I just hate it when people automatically dismiss these new green technologies due to cost.
I would be willing to pay double for my power if it was zero emission, but Indiana is all "clean coal"......

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